Does anyone know why PEScience did a 180?

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Supercellular

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5 years ago their stuff was good as anyone.

Now I just saw they made their trucreatine without creatine anhydrous and instead using mono.

An omega-3 supp with 120mg DHA per softgel - IOW, the lowest potency you can find...

Alphamine with a pointless amount of leucine...

Norcodrene with a formula you’d have seen 30 years ago...

What happened to these guys? They lose a formulator? Just trying to max margins while making their products as cheap as possible?
 

dicbent

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Can’t stomach any of their new flavors... used to be solid.
IMG_9825.jpg
 
bell1986

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5 years ago their stuff was good as anyone.

Now I just saw they made their trucreatine without creatine anhydrous and instead using mono.

An omega-3 supp with 120mg DHA per softgel - IOW, the lowest potency you can find...

Alphamine with a pointless amount of leucine...

Norcodrene with a formula you’d have seen 30 years ago...

What happened to these guys? They lose a formulator? Just trying to max margins while making their products as cheap as possible?
I thought the same?

Alphamine (Original) everybody was going on about and it was a #1 seller everywhere... Reformulated? I have tried the new one (Sample) was nothing in comparison. Then Norcodrene? Appetite suppressor that worked veryyyyyy well. Reformulated? They obviously bring out very good products then reformulate and hope that the success previously of the product continues. It always fails though. Alphamine is a classic. Who honestly uses it this day like previous? Same with Norcodrene ie a caffeine pill.

PES Shift is a very healthy product though. Thier forskolin extract is one of the best i have used. I have tried a few and thier stuff i can tell works better?

Thats why i tend to look around for good products. Performax Labs are good and trustworthy in my opinion? Good dose and science backed supplements. Evomuse also. Extensive research been input'd. I always point people in the direction of these company's. Thier are a few other company's also.

The marketplace is saturated with supplements now.. Some good some bad. You just need to look up reviews and studys on ingredients etc and then make your decision ?
 
LeanEngineer

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We'll have to wait for a PES rep to chime in. I really like shift and fd2.0.
 

alvin1

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Hopefully the do good business with that change, but for me I have completely forget that PES even exist as a supplement compagnie
 
DEVANS89

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Pretty sure it was a decision by the company to go down a less ‘hardcore’ route hence the decision to stop producing anabeta
 

bbartsche

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We'll have to wait for a PES rep to chime in. I really like shift and fd2.0.
Having them chime in is useless, they will say all the same things we have heard before, ie, more consumer friendly, better use of new ingredients etc etc. It's them being cheap. They only want the money. The get rid of the ingredients that cost a lot and put lesser quality to help the bottom line. Also more mainstream so the YouTube celebs can promote it.
 
bashar

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****, I ordered 6 of there new fish oil without reading the label, because it’s PES and I trust them blindly, guess I have to chug lots of pills to get a decent dose, it’s a shame...
 
bdcc

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5 years ago their stuff was good as anyone.

Now I just saw they made their trucreatine without creatine anhydrous and instead using mono.

An omega-3 supp with 120mg DHA per softgel - IOW, the lowest potency you can find...

Alphamine with a pointless amount of leucine...

Norcodrene with a formula you’d have seen 30 years ago...

What happened to these guys? They lose a formulator? Just trying to max margins while making their products as cheap as possible?
I am more than happy to answer any questions you have. :)

The main formulator is the same person it has always been. In that regard nothing has changed.

The biggest things that have changed are the circumstances surrounding the market we are selling in and the number of customers we now have to cater for.

For example, when we started 8 years ago compliance and regulations were not like they were today. Over the past few years we have seen prohormones leaving and stimulants coming and going, ephedrine, methyl-synephrine, DMAA, AMP etc.

Likewise, we started as a small company on this very forum. The number of customers we had was small so we could formulate specifically for them without having to worry much about anything else.

Nowadays, as our company has grown the number of outlets we are sold in has increased significantly and this impacts the safety of the products we put out.

For example, Enhanced was a legendary pre workout by some people's standards but it was our most complained about product ever. It was potent and the number of people who reported side effects to us was high. This means ingredients with a very narrow tolerated dose became something that was risky for our customer's safety. Rather than selling just a few hundred bottles to forum users we are now selling products in popular brick and mortar stores, large online retailers and across several continents. This growing demand means we have to evolve to appropriately cater for our audience. In that regard, product evolutionary is reactionary rather than something that was intended in the company direction.

Our need for compliance is significantly higher than a lot of smaller companies as our products have a high level of exposure to a very wide customer audience. Something like the original Alpha-T2 or even the original Norcodrene are not products that would be sensible to sell.

We play very strictly by the rules to make sure we are bringing out safe and compliant products.

Everyone has their own personal preferences on companies they use and don't use. For example person A may want a hardcore product using grey area stimulants as their pre workout but other people would prefer to buy products that have more human research and safety data on them from a company that spends a lot of money on product testing and quality control.

If someone is looking for the strongest stimulants, we aren't going to be the company for them anymore and I hope people can appreciate the complexity of the reasons why. In a product category like thermogenics the dominant products are often ones that 1) come with a high risk of side effects 2) have grey area or non compliant ingredients.

Small companies can cater for this market because they are more likely to fly under the regulatory radar and their customer base is narrow enough to minimise the likelihood of someone purchasing the product who has no idea how to use it. For us this is not a direction we can take.

The evolution of the company leaves some customers happy and some not. Will we bring out a hardcore fat burner like a smaller company could risk making? No. Can we make very effectively dosed pre workouts, non stimulant pre workouts, non stimulant fat burners, daily all in one products? Yes. Can you purchase our products knowing we have followed every regulatory procedure by the letter? Yes. Can you trust that we have tested every single product to make sure it contains what it says on the label? Yes. Do we spend more money on quality control in one year than many companies will spend in their lifetimes? Yes.

We respect our customers freedom of choice and you are welcome to spend your hard earned dollars wherever you would like. Our change of direction absolutely isn't about cutting corners and more about trying our best to satisfy our growing customer base whilst diligently complying with regulations. :)
 

bb333

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I am more than happy to answer any questions you have. :)

The main formulator is the same person it has always been. In that regard nothing has changed.

The biggest things that have changed are the circumstances surrounding the market we are selling in and the number of customers we now have to cater for.

For example, when we started 8 years ago compliance and regulations were not like they were today. Over the past few years we have seen prohormones leaving and stimulants coming and going, ephedrine, methyl-synephrine, DMAA, AMP etc.

Likewise, we started as a small company on this very forum. The number of customers we had was small so we could formulate specifically for them without having to worry much about anything else.

Nowadays, as our company has grown the number of outlets we are sold in has increased significantly and this impacts the safety of the products we put out.

For example, Enhanced was a legendary pre workout by some people's standards but it was our most complained about product ever. It was potent and the number of people who reported side effects to us was high. This means ingredients with a very narrow tolerated dose became something that was risky for our customer's safety. Rather than selling just a few hundred bottles to forum users we are now selling products in popular brick and mortar stores, large online retailers and across several continents. This growing demand means we have to evolve to appropriately cater for our audience. In that regard, product evolutionary is reactionary rather than something that was intended in the company direction.

Our need for compliance is significantly higher than a lot of smaller companies as our products have a high level of exposure to a very wide customer audience. Something like the original Alpha-T2 or even the original Norcodrene are not products that would be sensible to sell.

We play very strictly by the rules to make sure we are bringing out safe and compliant products.

Everyone has their own personal preferences on companies they use and don't use. For example person A may want a hardcore product using grey area stimulants as their pre workout but other people would prefer to buy products that have more human research and safety data on them from a company that spends a lot of money on product testing and quality control.

If someone is looking for the strongest stimulants, we aren't going to be the company for them anymore and I hope people can appreciate the complexity of the reasons why. In a product category like thermogenics the dominant products are often ones that 1) come with a high risk of side effects 2) have grey area or non compliant ingredients.

Small companies can cater for this market because they are more likely to fly under the regulatory radar and their customer base is narrow enough to minimise the likelihood of someone purchasing the product who has no idea how to use it. For us this is not a direction we can take.

The evolution of the company leaves some customers happy and some not. Will we bring out a hardcore fat burner like a smaller company could risk making? No. Can we make very effectively dosed pre workouts, non stimulant pre workouts, non stimulant fat burners, daily all in one products? Yes. Can you purchase our products knowing we have followed every regulatory procedure by the letter? Yes. Can you trust that we have tested every single product to make sure it contains what it says on the label? Yes. Do we spend more money on quality control in one year than many companies will spend in their lifetimes? Yes.

We respect our customers freedom of choice and you are welcome to spend your hard earned dollars wherever you would like. Our change of direction absolutely isn't about cutting corners and more about trying our best to satisfy our growing customer base whilst diligently complying with regulations. :)
That said, Alphamine was the number 1 most fat burner. US version, and EU version.
 

bbartsche

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Gotta laugh at this. Of course the main PES Rep says what he had to say to save face. You can poll most people in the PES thread and see that it has gone down hill.

I've seen more companies grow at bigger rates and don't lose integrity of what they do. If you have the number 1 fat burner would you change the profile? No you wouldn't. It's number 1 for a reason, it works.

The market is the same, but the ability to capitalize on uninformed consumers have gone up. The YouTube community will always promote subpar products as long as they are getting paid. Sorry but that's the way it has gone.
 
bdcc

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That said, Alphamine was the number 1 most fat burner. US version, and EU version.
If you look at the topics just in page one of this supplement section right now you will see;
- best exotic stimulants
- sublingual prohormones
- epistane
- T3/T4
- DMAA
- MK 677

As popular as the old Alphamine was, we genuinely did get to the point where we were getting side effect reports which related to yohimbe so we were forced to remove it (among other reasons). If we remove yohimbe from a product and higenamine doesn't have human data on fat loss it is intellectually dishonest to call something a 'fat burner' so we decided the most honest way to play it is change the direction of the product altogether and call it an energy drink.

This is why our changes are often more reactionary than people realise. Our company growth has been fast and this has forced us to make some changes. :)
 
bdcc

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Gotta laugh at this. Of course the main PES Rep says what he had to say to save face. You can poll most people in the PES thread and see that it has gone down hill.

I've seen more companies grow at bigger rates and don't lose integrity of what they do. If you have the number 1 fat burner would you change the profile? No you wouldn't. It's number 1 for a reason, it works.

The market is the same, but the ability to capitalize on uninformed consumers have gone up. The YouTube community will always promote subpar products as long as they are getting paid. Sorry but that's the way it has gone.
I said our market is not the same anymore. Not that the entire customer demand has changed.

If you formulate products for a relatively small number of forum users and then formulate products for a much larger number of customers across several continents this of course has implications. I would be surprised if anyone genuinely thought otherwise. :)
 
rascal14

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You don’t start a company with the hopes of staying small and have one small customer base. Everyone acts like they’re morons for changing, when really they would be morons for not changing to what they are now.

You guys need to get over it, you all sound pathetic still whining about this lol
 
Hack75

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You don’t start a company with the hopes of staying small and have one small customer base. Everyone acts like they’re morons for changing, when really they would be morons for not changing to what they are now.

You guys need to get over it, you all sound pathetic still whining about this lol
Nobody is “whining.”

The original post says what many of us are thinking. PES was once a great supplement/nutrition company for those of us who are truly hardcore in our pursuit of fitness and health. PES made great products for us.

Now they’ve gone mainstream and watered down their line. Nobody believes what their reps are saying. Maybe their sales are great- if so, that’s because their formulas are weak (higher margins) and can be more easily sold to the average Joe. Their supplements aren’t for anyone who takes this stuff seriously.

Everyone’s attitude is likely the same towards PES. Sort of disappointed. I used to be a huge advocate of the line- now I don’t stock one PES product.

If what they’re doing is working, then good for them. That’s who they want to be.
 
Supercellular

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Thanks for the feedback bdcc however, while I see where you are coming from can you explain why these changes would be made as none of these involve anything remotely risky:

1. What research was cited to judge the dose of leucine in alphamine as everything I’ve come across shows you’d need around 5g of BCAA to spike MPS optimally?

2. Why is your omega-3 product low dosed compared to the competition who will be using upwards of 300mg EPA and 200mg DHA per softgel?

3. Why would you drop creatine anhydrous for monohydrate in light of the extensive arguments made for why you used anhydrous in the first place?

4. The European version of alphamine without yohimbine was a very well received product. If Y was such an issue why couldn’t you simply take the EU formula which was popular and presumably didn’t have the sides seen with the USA formula?

5. Didn’t Select Protein used to contain whey isolate and not just wpc?

Are any of the 5 questions above involving risky ingredients?

Are any of the 5 questions above situations where PES’ new expanded customer base would have a different view than your traditional base? I’m tres sceptical that mainstream people would prefer a low potency fish oil, or that they are crying out for 1g of leucine in alphamine, or prefer wpc to wpi etc.

Unless of course new customers = those wanting cheap junk and that’s why pes elects to bring out cheap ingredients.

Also, regarding becoming a larger company and the changes it necessitates, being a larger company hasn’t stopped muscletech producing quality fish oil supplements, using hardcore stims etc.
 
rascal14

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Nobody is “whining.”

The original post says what many of us are thinking. PES was once a great supplement/nutrition company for those of us who are truly hardcore in our pursuit of fitness and health. PES made great products for us.

Now they’ve gone mainstream and watered down their line. Nobody believes what their reps are saying. Maybe their sales are great- if so, that’s because their formulas are weak (higher margins) and can be more easily sold to the average Joe. Their supplements aren’t for anyone who takes this stuff seriously.

Everyone’s attitude is likely the same towards PES. Sort of disappointed. I used to be a huge advocate of the line- now I don’t stock one PES product.

If what they’re doing is working, then good for them. That’s who they want to be.
Lots of people whine about it. Sitting around complaining all the time about something that happened months ago is whining.

Either make $500,000/year making products for a small group of people, or make easier products, that appeal to countless more people and make $700,000/year? Anyone with a brain would go with the latter. Fake numbers, but likely their sales increased more than that percentage.

You guys still care so much about something you don’t even use anymore. You don’t still sit around talking about ex girlfriends that have changed, do you?

Find a new company. PES never made anything that was a game changer in the first place lol sure their products were better, but they aren’t taking something away that will change your life in any way.
 
Jiigzz

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So you changed it so that you can get more people to buy by making subpar products? That seems so logical these days, subpar products, same price throw some coupon codes in and your good right?

PES is trash, besides select and ergonine. That's my input, you should poll the pes thread ben and see what they say about how the company has gone.
Did you read anything he posted? PES has grown beyond what the forum consumer wants. So of course if you poll the forum you're going to get different responses than to what their primary market wants.

If you don't like their products, move on. Also, Ben isn't just a "main rep" within PES, he deals with the international community and it's marketing.

The forum has other 'hardcore' companies to which cater for your need, and honestly company and rep bashing gets old.

I too loved OG Alphamine, but I also love their new version which is more of an energy drink - something I drink almost every single day. I'd love to see PES come out with an RTD version
 
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A little info that might be helpful to people who think what “forum members” are.

This site get about 20% of it’s traffic from members and probably 5% actually post. The rest is guest traffic reading everything and researching. So if you think the “forum members” are the majority, you’re nuts.

If you don’t like what a company produces, don’t buy it...but don’t create threads and participate in threads that do nothing but bash a companies choice on how they want to run their company. You can go on Facebook and other social media platforms for that.
 
Jiigzz

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Nobody is “whining.”

The original post says what many of us are thinking. PES was once a great supplement/nutrition company for those of us who are truly hardcore in our pursuit of fitness and health. PES made great products for us.

Now they’ve gone mainstream and watered down their line. Nobody believes what their reps are saying. Maybe their sales are great- if so, that’s because their formulas are weak (higher margins) and can be more easily sold to the average Joe. Their supplements aren’t for anyone who takes this stuff seriously.

Everyone’s attitude is likely the same towards PES. Sort of disappointed. I used to be a huge advocate of the line- now I don’t stock one PES product.

If what they’re doing is working, then good for them. That’s who they want to be.
Comments like this really lose me. You realise that 99% of the hardcore supplements you use have almost zero data in humans, and usually rely on a singular rodent study to back their usefulness, right?

You think they're hardcore because your told it's cutting edge by their marketing team. Most fail to stand the test of time.

I always find it funny when people say, "the average Joe falls for weak products", yet people jump on a product with ingredients tested on a mute, castrated, 1 legged and blind duck found only in the himalayas on Sundays in winter.
 
Jiigzz

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I did, I stated my opinion of how I felt. Many people feel the same as me. When you have the best fat burner in the msrket, than reformulate it to an energy drink people get upset. They could have made a different product and that been an energy drink substitute. They didn't. They lost a great fat burner same with norco. So that's how I will leave it. I get it ben is a stand up guy, people like him. To me he comes off arrogant

I see other companies that have great social media presence and don't change how they are in the industry. That's how I will leave it.
He's answering questions, but just because you don't like the answers doesn't make him arrogant. He doesn't need me to stick up for him either, but I think it is unfair to get personal when he is responding in a respectful manner.
 
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Exactly. I don’t like him therefore I will bash the company for something they did years ago. Typical bull****. Grow up and get over it.
 

bbartsche

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Exactly. I don’t like him therefore I will bash the company for something they did years ago. Typical bull****. Grow up and get over it.
I wasn't bashing the company because I don't like him. I never once said I don't like him. I said that he comes off to me as arrogant. I like Ben, but he can have an attitude.
 
Jiigzz

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5 years ago their stuff was good as anyone.

Now I just saw they made their trucreatine without creatine anhydrous and instead using mono.

An omega-3 supp with 120mg DHA per softgel - IOW, the lowest potency you can find...

Alphamine with a pointless amount of leucine...

Norcodrene with a formula you’d have seen 30 years ago...

What happened to these guys? They lose a formulator? Just trying to max margins while making their products as cheap as possible?
You notice that the serving size is two soft gels? I don't buy fish oil, but isn't 440mg EPA and 240mg DHA a good dosage? I could be wrong
 
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