Doctors: Pot Triggers Psychotic Symptoms

Jayhawkk

Jayhawkk

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LONDON (AP) - New findings on marijuana's damaging effect on the brain show the drug triggers temporary psychotic symptoms in some people, including hallucinations and paranoid delusions, doctors say.

British doctors took brain scans of 15 healthy volunteers given small doses of two of the active ingredients of cannabis, as well as a placebo.

One compound, cannabidiol, or CBD, made people more relaxed. But even small doses of another component, tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, produced temporary psychotic symptoms in people, including hallucinations and paranoid delusions, doctors said.

The results, to be presented at an international mental health conference in London on Tuesday and Wednesday, provides physical evidence of the drug's damaging influence on the human brain.

"We've long suspected that cannabis is linked to psychoses, but we have never before had scans to show how the mechanism works," said Dr. Philip McGuire, a professor of psychiatry at King's College, London.

In analyzing MRI scans of the study's subjects, McGuire and his colleagues found that THC interfered with activity in the inferior frontal cortex, a region of the brain associated with paranoia.

"THC is switching off that regulator," McGuire said, effectively unleashing the paranoia usually kept under control by the frontal cortex.

In another study being presented at the conference, a two-day gathering of mental health experts discussing the connections between cannabis and mental health, scientists found that marijuana worsens psychotic symptoms of schizophrenics.

Doctors at Yale University in the U.S. tested the impact of THC on 150 healthy volunteers and 13 people with stable schizophrenia. Nearly half of the healthy subjects experienced psychotic symptoms when given the drug.

While the doctors expected to see marijuana improve the conditions of their schizophrenic subjects _ since their patients reported that the drug calmed them _ they found that the reverse was true.

"I was surprised by the results," said Dr. Deepak Cyril D'Souza, an associate professor of psychiatry at Yale University's School of Medicine. "In practice, we found that cannabis is very bad for people with schizophrenia," he said.

While D'Souza had intended to study marijuana's impact on schizophrenics in more patients, the study was stopped prematurely because the impact was so pronounced that it would have been unethical to test it on more people with schizophrenia.

"One of the great puzzles is why people with schizophrenia keep taking the stuff when it makes the paranoia worse," said Dr. Robin Murray, a professor of psychiatry at King's College.

Experts theorized that schizophrenics may mistakenly judge the drug's pleasurable effects to outweigh any negatives.

Understanding how marijuana affects the brain may ultimately lead experts to a better understanding of mental health in general.

"We don't know the basis of paranoia or anxiety," said McGuire.

"It is possible that we could use cannabis in controlled studies to understand psychoses better," he said. McGuire theorized that could one day lead to specific drugs targeting the responsible regions of the brain.
 
"Doctors at Yale University in the U.S. tested the impact of THC on 150 healthy volunteers and 13 people with stable schizophrenia. Nearly half of the healthy subjects experienced psychotic symptoms when given the drug."

Haha! Wonder how many people they had sign up for that study
 
Of course, if true, one wonders where all the stoner psycho killers and robbers have been hiding all these years.
 
Now you're using a old wives tale that pot smokers just sit on the couch and eat cheesy poofs. Most criminals I knew as a kid and have met through the years were high at the time of arrest or as the case was when I was a kid, high during the crime. It's hard to rule anything in or out(and i'm not willing to do either on one study) because many mix their drugs and also have alcohol.

This study is just another in a stack of them saying one thing or another about pot. My personal opinion is that in moderation and with proper setting many of the banned drugs are not dangerous per se. I also believe that that majority follower neither moderation nor proper settings and that making them illegal is the proper thing to do.
 
Jayhawkk said:
Now you're using a old wives tale that pot smokers just sit on the couch and eat cheesy poofs. Most criminals I knew as a kid and have met through the years were high at the time of arrest or as the case was when I was a kid, high during the crime. It's hard to rule anything in or out(and i'm not willing to do either on one study) because many mix their drugs and also have alcohol.
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You've got your chain of events reversed. High criminals mean all people who get high commit crimes? Nonsense. It's not surprising to find most criminals are high on something when arrested. Just like it's not surprising to find most cocaine users have used and still use marijuana. However in the latter case the relevant question is how many active cocaine users are there among marijuana users. The answer is less than 1 in 100. Likewise in the crime case the question isn't how many criminals get high, but how many people who get high go on to commit a crime like robbery or rape or burglary, etc. The reverse rationality you use is exactly the type of fallacious logic people use to show how violent books, movies and music 'cause' crime.

This study is just another in a stack of them saying one thing or another about pot. My personal opinion is that in moderation and with proper setting many of the banned drugs are not dangerous per se. I also believe that that majority follower neither moderation nor proper settings and that making them illegal is the proper thing to do.
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Then where were all these criminals before prohibition? If the drugs are illegal and getting them requires associating with gang members, robbers, whores and the scum of the earth, how the hell is anyone supposed to maintain the proper setting? When the market favors more concentrated forms of drugs how is one supposed to maintain moderation? Once more you're using the negative effects of prohibition to justify prohibition. You can't turn people into criminals and then say because they're criminals you need the laws that made them criminals to begin with. Ex post facto justification, using the negative results of your policies to justify their existence.
 
15 people and they didn't even smoke it - this study is BS. The same goes for the THC administered to schizos. Why does science always want to put everything under a microscope? What I mean is that by administering only 2 active ingredients or only THC they're not actually testing weed, so what good are these studies? We know that compounds work synergistically, so unless they administer unadulterated weed, their results are skewed.
 
Neither one of us lived during prohibition and the types of record keeping are not the same or with the same circumstances as we have today. Maybe if we would of never made anything illegal we would of grown to be a giant peace loving society but we can't undo what was done. Trying to make something illegal once it is embedded into society is damn near impossible. Just look at Alcohol. I'd rather not legalize it all and then sit back and say 'whoops, my bad'.

My anaology was to show that just because you don't see 'marijuana' listed in the crimes doesn't mean it wasn't there. You are saying that just because some crimes are committed while a person is high does not mean they all are and I agree. I am just replying to your statement of wondering wher eall the high robbers and criminals are.

People like to use the argument that making drugs illegal forces good people to associate with bad people in bad places. I like to use the one that says the drugs are what help make people bad. I've seen too many kids who were decent turn into slugs because of drugs and alcohol. They were associating with themselves and they had to use it with limitations because of school and parents etc. While not the best of settings or the best example of moderation. They were not in back alleys hanging with crack addicts and smoking all day every day either.

It seems that advocates of anything illegal, use the excuse that the act of making it illegal is the reason they are bad and that there is nothing wrong with the item itself. In our type of society at the present day, if something gives way to high spread abuse then I think it should be regulated. Hell alcohol is legal but there are restrictions and I would be willing to bet most kids by the age of 16 have drank and have got drunk to excess and probably have done something risky in that same regard. Making pot any less illegal will make it even easier for kids to get hold of this stuff.

My main concern is with children at this point and it's already hard enough if you're an involved parent to keep drugs and alcohol out of their hands. There isn't one advantage worth making this or any other drug OTC legal other than the fact that people don't like to be regulated.
 
gdbear65 said:
15 people and they didn't even smoke it - this study is BS. The same goes for the THC administered to schizos. Why does science always want to put everything under a microscope? What I mean is that by administering only 2 active ingredients or only THC they're not actually testing weed, so what good are these studies? We know that compounds work synergistically, so unless they administer unadulterated weed, their results are skewed.
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Plus we don't know how much was administered and under what conditions. Marinol, the pill form of THC, certainly doesn't have the same effects as weed. Plus with weed you self dose, and can pull back when you feel you've had enough. If given a set dose you have no time or ability to gauge the effects and stop when you want, you just have to dose and hope for the best.
 
gdbear65 said:
15 people and they didn't even smoke it - this study is BS. The same goes for the THC administered to schizos. Why does science always want to put everything under a microscope? What I mean is that by administering only 2 active ingredients or only THC they're not actually testing weed, so what good are these studies? We know that compounds work synergistically, so unless they administer unadulterated weed, their results are skewed.
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They were trying to find what components of marijiana did what. they provide what any study provides. information...Now both sides take what they want from it and use it to hteir advantage. Just like anything else. Plus it isn't like you can't find 'weed' with additional changes to it. I wouldn't be too worked up over it. it isn't like another study in a month won't come out stating the opposite of this.
 
Jayhawkk said:
Neither one of us lived during prohibition and the types of record keeping are not the same or with the same circumstances as we have today. Maybe if we would of never made anything illegal we would of grown to be a giant peace loving society but we can't undo what was done. Trying to make something illegal once it is embedded into society is damn near impossible. Just look at Alcohol. I'd rather not legalize it all and then sit back and say 'whoops, my bad'.
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No need. There's no shortage of supply, all the prohibition does is make sure people with fewer and fewer scruples are doing the dealing as time goes on.

My anaology was to show that just because you don't see 'marijuana' listed in the crimes doesn't mean it wasn't there. You are saying that just because some crimes are committed while a person is high does not mean they all are and I agree. I am just replying to your statement of wondering wher eall the high robbers and criminals are.
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And my point is this sounds like more Reefer Madness. I can't wait to see the actual study.

People like to use the argument that making drugs illegal forces good people to associate with bad people in bad places. I like to use the one that says the drugs are what help make people bad. I've seen too many kids who were decent turn into slugs because of drugs and alcohol. They were associating with themselves and they had to use it with limitations because of school and parents etc. While not the best of settings or the best example of moderation. They were not in back alleys hanging with crack addicts and smoking all day every day either.
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And obviously 20 years in prison is the solution.

It seems that advocates of anything illegal, use the excuse that the act of making it illegal is the reason they are bad and that there is nothing wrong with the item itself. In our type of society at the present day, if something gives way to high spread abuse then I think it should be regulated. Hell alcohol is legal but there are restrictions and I would be willing to bet most kids by the age of 16 have drank and have got drunk to excess and probably have done something risky in that same regard. Making pot any less illegal will make it even easier for kids to get hold of this stuff.
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Buy your own argument it won't make it easier or harder. They are already using. The question is who do you want selling: a legitimate business with the possibility of some conscience and law abiding nature, or a criminal.

My main concern is with children at this point and it's already hard enough if you're an involved parent to keep drugs and alcohol out of their hands. There isn't one advantage worth making this or any other drug OTC legal other than the fact that people don't like to be regulated.
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Maybe that's because barring hurting other people they shouldn't be regulated. It's called freedom.
 
I can beleive the finding in schitzophrenics actually. I know at least 2 who self medicate with pot and it does not help their situation at all....especially if they run out. Yikes, then they go cuckoo for cocao puffs.

Honestly, in my experience, I have seen some people who get paranoid and hostile on pot, but they are like 1 in a 1000. Given all the compounds in pot and all the variation in brain structure and function between individual humans...Dah Hey, it's going to effect everyone differently.

For me, it eased my aggression and hostility. I have never been paranoid on it nor psychotic.

Pot has lots of potential medicinal use so I think this study is useful in some regards. Maybe exclude THC and give DHC to schitzo's instead. It does highlight what most advocates of medicinal herbs knew all along...plant compounds rarely work alone. Rather they work in concert with lots of other chemicals in the plant to create an effect.

Pharmacuetical companies are big on isolating just one active compound, modifying it for patent reasons and selling it when very often, they miss out on the synergistic actions of the whole plant extract. I think this is what's going on in this study...just giving one ingredient from pot produces very "un-pot-like" results IMO.


The NIH and DEA will of course, highlight the "paranoid and psychotic" parts of this study for their agendas.
 
One compound, cannabidiol, or CBD, made people more relaxed. But even small doses of another component, tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, produced temporary psychotic symptoms in people, including hallucinations and paranoid delusions, doctors said.
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Well from 25 or so years personal past experience I will share that some weed just did not sit well with me. As the quote above mentions sometimes the response can be unpleasant. I personally believe it is the lack of regulation for the content and quality of the active in our 'commercial' supply of product. There are times that I would smoke out and have a rip roaring hillarious fun time. Other times there is this tremendous 'mortality' awareness and paraniod dilusions of sorts from the surroundings and people I am with. Sort of like a Jacob's Ladder experience. It just grieved my spirit so much that it really was unpleasant to say the least.

Light it up! ;)
 
Yep, anyone who's toked can relate that different batches give different results. It all goes back to how different ratioes of actives giving different synergistic results IMO.

I honestly have never freaked out on any of the, um, numerous batches of pot I have sampled...but there's always a first I suppose.

As to differences in brain structure and chemistry...I was just reading yesterday about the significant behavioral differences in people who were breast fed versus raised on formula. Formula fed people..like moi..have significantly higher rates of depression and aggression than breast fed people.

SO I am what you made me MOM!

lol
 
bioman said:
As to differences in brain structure and chemistry...I was just reading yesterday about the significant behavioral differences in people who were breast fed versus raised on formula. Formula fed people..like moi..have significantly higher rates of depression and aggression than breast fed people.

SO I am what you made me MOM!

lol
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Lets not forget the maternity Mom's who smoked (nicotine) and drank coffee (caffeine) in the 60's before the enlightenment ocurred ;)

Not breast, nicotine, caffeine and catholic school...never had a chance.
 
Also CBD, our society has never been 'free' in the sense of not being regulated. We have been regulated since day one. Hell if you want to champion freedom then get rid of the freakin income tax. I'd be behind you one hundred percent on that.
 
ShakesAllDay said:
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:ntome:
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LMAO, see I told ya.
There is anecdotal evidence that the number of patients in the UK with psychotic symptoms linked to cannabis use is increasing. Professor Murray speculated that this may be linked to the increased THC content of herbal cannabis sold on the street. Cannabis on sale today has roughly doubled in strength in the last decade.
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Jayhawkk said:
Also CBD, our society has never been 'free' in the sense of not being regulated. We have been regulated since day one. Hell if you want to champion freedom then get rid of the freakin income tax. I'd be behind you one hundred percent on that.
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I'm already on that boat. Come, join us. At one time we didn't have the income tax, just as we didn't have prohibition. A world without either will not be problem free, but to paraphrase Jefferson I'd rather attend to the problems of having too much freedom than having too little. And besides, if marijuana were legal I could afford enough to make the marijuana for wormwood absinthe variant I've been itching to brew up for years now. I can get the essential oil extractor which doubles to distill the alcohol too. It's just a matter of funding.
 
Jayhawkk said:
LMAO, see I told ya.

There is anecdotal evidence that the number of patients in the UK with psychotic symptoms linked to cannabis use is increasing. Professor Murray speculated that this may be linked to the increased THC content of herbal cannabis sold on the street. Cannabis on sale today has roughly doubled in strength in the last decade.
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Myth. The shipments being intercepted have changed and even NIDA admitted that THC readings from 30 years ago were off. The idea that today's marijuana is somehow super marijuana is more nonsense cooked up to frighten parents. Anyway the more active per unit of weight the less that needs to be smoked to get the desired effect and the safer the drug.
 
I honestly don't follow it too closely but I do know that both sides of the arguement use scientific and statistical evidence to champion their view. Sometimes I feel like just throwing my hands up in the air.
 
Well two problems with that.

1. I'm a cop
2. I'm a father

Both require me to not only practice what I preach but to be held to a standard that needs to be kept. Sometimes I fail but I do my best. All in all, the positive things I do and the victims I have helped outweigh the negative of enforcing laws I may not agree with. I'm not perfect by no means so I don't mean to come off sounding that way.
 
Jayhawkk said:
I honestly don't follow it too closely but I do know that both sides of the arguement use scientific and statistical evidence to champion their view. Sometimes I feel like just throwing my hands up in the air.
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The scientific data is essentially as follows:

It is not too addictive, being rated just higher than caffeine for physical addiction. It has a high level of reinforcement, which means it can be habit forming (another beast entirely). On a raw basis the smoke is worse for you than cigarette smoke, but in a real world sense this is irrelevant because significantly less is smoked relative to tobacco. Large scale studies on disease, infection and cognative ability don't turn up any significant differences between users and nonusers, and in the end the scientific community has been politely telling congress to decriminalize if not outright legalize for decades now, with congress politely ignoring them.
 
I just don't understand the legalization of all drugs mentality though.

Look up "cheese" in google and "drug" and look at how much of an impact this heroine mix is having on the kids. This isn't a report of violence or crime but of kids just dying. Rehab is going through the roof and who do you think is paying for this?

That's why I say everything is connected and if we're going to change something so embedded into our society it has to be done carefully and with a lot of thought. Simply waking up to every drug known to man being legal just doesn't seem to wise of a choice.
 
Think of prohibition or the current illegal drug 'epidemic' we have now. The illegality of these substances did/does nothing to deter the access of those who are already addicts and alcoholics. Meth, Coke, and MJ addicts are abundant in our society regardless of the legality of the substance in question. And as is the case with most who are users, and addicts alike, feel it is a victimless crime.

Yet I think the peripheral law breaking such as violence, theft, prostitution, smuggling and all other activities associated with the addict or occasional users acquisition is in where the issue of legalization lies.

A meth addict is still going to steal, prostitute and commit violent crimes in order to support his drug dependency regardless of it's legal status. For the most part they are dysfunctional members of society who already cannot function at the minimal level of employment, housing and law abiding. I believe that legalization does nothing in regard to this issue.

I believe that those who support legalization may tend to shrug the infringement of their choice and control over the quality and quantity of their drug of choice. Legalization will increase the cost of substances just as alcohol is taxed to the hilt. There will also be regulation, standardization and retail distribution that will further increase the cost of their substances of choice. I believe that this will further reduce the access of these substances to the junkie who is already desperate enough to commit crime to access it now.

JMO
 
Jayhawkk said:
I just don't understand the legalization of all drugs mentality though.
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It's very simple:

1) Ethics and morals. In a free society it is wrong to outlaw actions that are not per se harmful to others. That includes telling people what they can and can not put in their own bodies. Does this increase the risk to the population? Perhaps to some extent. That is the price of freedom. You can be coddled and controlled or you can be free and deal with the risk.

2) Practicallity. You can't stop them. That's life. You simply can't. There is not one instance of a successful drug prohibition or prohibition in general in history. Not one, period. You. Can't. Do. It. Therefore what you can do breaks down into two options: One, take what resources you have and concentrate them on the people who have problems and are causing problems for others to get the most for your money, or 2) you can target all users indiscriminately and waste a ****load of time and money violating the rights of people who are not now nor were ever going to be a problem for themselves or others and hope you catch and 'help' some of the problem users in the overall net of ****ery.

Those are your options. You are not going to stop the drugs, you are not going to stop the users, you are not going to stop the abusers. It's all a matter of how you choose to deal with the problems that do exist, but the reality of use and the problem of abuse themselves are not going anywhere. You can make it worse by prohibitting the drugs, ****ing people who don't deserve to be ****ed, waste time and man hours chasing after an unachievable goal and targetting people who aren't a problem, or you can alleviate the problems to some extent by focussing your time and effort specifically on the actual problem.

Analogously, if you want to **** a woman you can randomly stick your **** into holes on her body and hope something happens, or you can go to where you know you will get a reaction and start working. Right now we're spending time jacking off in society's ear on this issue when we could have made her cum a dozen times over by now if we'd have just stopped the moralistic cluster **** and thought for two minutes.
 
I come from a long line of addicts from drugs to alcohol to a combination. Now, many of my choices to not imbibe was because of the law and the consequences. I have to wonder how many people are in my shoes? I mean, take away the illegal status and I wonder if I would of chose to take a different route and ended up like my dad, dead at 31.


If we're opening the law on drugs then remove all law?
 
Legality issues aside, all the literature I have perused over the years basically points to pot being the most benign drug out there in terms of health consequences...probably healthier in the long run than most legal drugs as it has a strong propensity to stimulate aptosis.

Are there people who become kinda useless on it? Sure, but I know of far more people who are literally captians of their particular industry who smoke frequently. We're talking multi-millionaires here so it's all in how and why the person is using it.

In my case and the case of aforementioned businessmen, it's a relaxing sleep aide and not much more than that. I never used it and ran around town causing trouble..I refuse to drink or smoke and drive ever. In the home, an hour before bed with some deep stretching and meditating thrown in..ahh, those were the days.
 
My wife has on many occasions tried to persuade me to self medicate with MJ. It is the one self medication that really has worked for me. The issue with me is that a pinch becomes a 1/4 L B in a flash. Then the addict and my propensity to abuse take over.
 
I smoke it if I got it...if I don't, I honestly don't think about it for many months at a time until it comes my way again.

I'll smoke enough to get sleepy and high, but I rarely ever use it during the daytime unless I am sick or injured. Then it helps me to stay in bed where I should be instead of finding projects to do.

It keeps a lot of ambient tension and anxiety at bay which eases my more aggressive impulses. I have anger and depression issues that are linked. It works for me and all stigmas aside, I think I manage myself pretty well. I am actually terrified to get caught and be forced into taking some godawful prescription drug instead.

But yes, it qualifies as a habit for me...but nothing like coffee. I will literally lose my marbles if deprived of coffee for 2 or more days. The migraine-nausea agony is the worst thing I have ever felt, lol. Succession of pot use simply means maybe one sleepless night, a grumpy day or two..then everything's back to normal with the exception of a higher level of stress. It's really no big deal at all.
 
Now i'm starting to wonder how many of us fall into this category. Over the years i've looked at B as someone who has had somewhat a 180% life experience but with almost all the same undertones as the end result. hard to explain.

Pot is one of the few drugs I can actually sway a bit on when listening to to arguments for it but to just up and legalize everything isn't.
 
Jayhawkk said:
Now i'm starting to wonder how many of us fall into this category.
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I would imagine a lot. For me, I know that unresolved issues stuffed down ferment below the surface. As children we have the ability to stuff these things down deep. But there is a battle going on in the subconscious. Something about the id the ego and the super-ego. Freud has presented theories on this and it has been a while since I delved into it. Nor do I really even try to pass my self off as knowing an form psychology by any means.

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Over the years i've looked at B as someone who has had somewhat a 180% life experience but with almost all the same undertones as the end result. hard to explain.
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Do you mean a 180° life experience. I think you do. Undertones? Explain if you can.

Let me tell you it is NO party. Cause there's one road in and one road out. You need to do a 180° to get out. But this means you have to travel back that same road that you took to get in. There is a lot of wreckage and debris scatter on that road. Also the journey out can be as long or longer than the ride in. Things repressed and faded in the rear mirror now need to be viewed sober and directly in you windshield. Of course I am using a metaphor but I know you get the picture.

I constantly struggle with issues. Sobriety has confirmed for me that my substance abuse was symptom. I am just as fvcked up today as I ever was. I was blessed by the grace of God to be delivered from my self destructive behaviors of substance abuse (for today) which leaves me a bare naked and scared child having to rely on a relationship with a higher power, whom I call God, to get me through most days. You can imagine how that must be with the father figure issues that I deal with. Like most independent children, most days I go it on my own until I am broken again. Ironically when I am broken, fallen, face down on my knees, is when I look up for His help, rather than when I am walking upright looking for His instruction and direction.

Maybe these will touch you like they touch me. I think they will.
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Sometimes I listen to them and weep like a baby.

Anyway. Here's a big hug and a man kiss square on the mouth for you my brother.
 
180 degrees...Yeah.

I mean, from all the talks we've had I know we come from two different worlds and while I haven't experienced the drugs/alcohol side like you have I have had parallel experiences with almost the exact turn out, in the end...Or in the current, I guess I should say. Although different baggage on the surface it resulted in us making almost the same decisions to survive our own demons.

While many of the demons have been forced upon us through circumstance we also have many we placed on ourselves. Different but the same.

I'm tired of being me,
and I don't like what I see,
I'm not who I appear to be
So I start off every day,
down on my knees I will pray,
for a change in any way
But as the day goes by,
I live through another lie,
if it's any wonder why
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I don't think anything recently has hit me like that just did. Since my dad died I never thought I would make it past the age he died and this year is the year where i'll pass his age and as nuts as it sounds it's a deep fear.

I know we've spoke many times through PM's and other private means B, but I have no shame in thanking you for all the help and advice you have given me when I had doubts anyone else had been 'there'. Anyone able to call you friend would be considered lucky and blessed in my book and I thank you for being mine.
 
Jayhawkk said:
Now i'm starting to wonder how many of us fall into this category. Over the years i've looked at B as someone who has had somewhat a 180% life experience but with almost all the same undertones as the end result. hard to explain.
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A lot. Which is why I think mental illness is an attempt to explain away the uncertainties of normal lives that at one time people just learned how to deal with naturally. The trick about beating depression is to know one thing about it: it always ends. Once you get through one you learn to recognize the thought patterns and, even if you can't stop it, you can deal with it for the most part. Having friends who understand the issue helps a lot.

Some chicks dig the brooding thing too.
 
B5150 said:
Maybe these will touch you like they touch me. I think they will.
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Sometimes I listen to them and weep like a baby.

Anyway. Here's a big hug and a man kiss square on the mouth for you my brother.
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Those are insightful, but a tad depressing, no? I find listening to that type of music sometimes gives me a empathetic feeling. It's cool to know someone out there has had the same feelings. But it also has the possibility to fuel the negative. I prefer Corey Hart.

"SO IF YOU'RE LOST AND ON YOUR OWN
YOU CAN NEVER SURRENDER
AND IF YOU'RE PATH WON'T LEAD YOU HOME
YOU CAN NEVER SURRENDER
AND WHEN THE NIGHT IS COLD AND DARK
YOU CAN SEE YOU CAN SEE LIGHT
CAUSE NO ONE CAN TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHT
TO FIGHT AND TO NEVER SURRENDER"

And Billy Joel.

"This life isn't fair
It's gonna get dark, it's gonna get cold
You've got to be tough, but that ain't enough
It's all about soul

"It's all about soul
It's all about joy that comes out of sorrow
It's all about soul
Who's standing now and who's standing tomorrow
You've got to be hard
Hard as the rock in that old rock 'n' roll song
But that's only part, you know in your heart
It's all about soul "
 
CDB said:
The trick about beating depression is to know one thing about it: it always ends. Once you get through one you learn to recognize the thought patterns and, even if you can't stop it, you can deal with it for the most part.
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Absolutely and completely agree! It is what it is and it's going to run it's course with my permission or not. Know it, recognize it, embrace it and minimize the collateral damage.
 
It's recognizing it before it sets in too much so the collateral damage is minimal. My problem usually is just that. I don't pick up on it soon enough.
 
CDB said:
Those are insightful, but a tad depressing, no?
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Yes and no. The second song is based on a scipture: Invalid Link Removed which is for Christians a hope and faith in Christ to transform our lives. Out of context it can be depressing when read. The album is "III Side to every story". Your's, mine and the truth. It is a concept/theme album when heard out of contexts can be misunderstood.

I do get blown away by my fellow alcoholic Billy Joel:

"Call me a joker, call me a fool
Right at this moment I'm totally cool
Clear as a crystal, sharp as a knife
I feel like I'm in the prime of my life
Sometimes it feels like I'm going too fast
I don't know how long this feeling will last
Maybe it's only tonight

Darling I don't know why I go to extremes
Too high or too low there ain't no in-betweens
And if I stand or I fall
It's all or nothing at all
Darling I don't know why I go to extremes

Sometimes I'm tired, sometimes I'm shot
Sometimes I don't know how much more I've got
Maybe I'm headed over the hill
Maybe I've set myself up for the kill
Tell me how much do you think you can take
Until the heart in you is starting to break?
Sometimes it feels like it will

Darling I don't know why I go to extremes
Too high or too low there ain't no in-betweens
You can be sure when I'm gone
I won't be out there too long
Darling I don't know why I go to extremes

Out of the darkness, into the light
Leaving the scene of the crime
Either I'm wrong or I'm perfectly right every time
Sometimes I lie awake, night after night
Coming apart at the seams
Eager to please, ready to fight
Why do I go to extremes?

And if I stand or I fall
It's all or nothing at all
Darling I don't know why I go to extremes

No I don't know why I go to extremes
Too high or too low
There ain't no in-betweens
You can be sure when I'm gone
I won't be out there too long
Darling I don't know why I go to extremes

I don't know why...I don't know why...
I don't know why...I don't know why...
Out in the dark...into the light..."
 
Jayhawkk said:
It's recognizing it before it sets in too much so the collateral damage is minimal. My problem usually is just that. I don't pick up on it soon enough.
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I didn't get here overnight. I hurt a lot of people along the way. It can still happen at times (yesterday and today as a matter of fact...my injury is breaking my heart and depressing me) but I am much quicker to admit and repent and earn forgiveness from those I hurt than I used to be.
 
but I am much quicker to admit and repent and earn forgiveness from those I hurt than I used to be.
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So am i but I also caught myself recently using my asking for forgiveness as a tool or weapon. That caused me to go back and rethink what I was doing and whether I was just going through the motions. once I addressed this and reflected on it for a bit I was able to pacify the current volcano i let loose.
 
My wife has my profile and all the evidence to support it. She knows the contribution of my family dynamics. Long list, I'm sure we covered it here once before. She knows my deviant and self destructive past first hand. She knows how far I have come.

I have communicated with her of the intricacies and frailty of my psychi at times and knows very well and first hand that I got issues. We all do, just some of us are more grand in our acting out then others. I communicate very clearly and directly that I am having an issue with (pick one: custody, visitation, support, long distance parenting, repressed abandonment issues, repressed abuse issues, etc) right now and I am really irritable, bordering hostile because of these issues. Honey I am sorry if I am not myself right now, please understand that I am my wits end in dealing with my X or that I am still experiencing repressed brokenheartedness because I really wish I had a Dad I could have to console me in this matter, or encourage in this matter or just fvcking take my to a ball game. I really just want to be able to be someones boy. You know how I get when I get like that.

See, now I have communicated very clearly to her. As well, she knows that I have a plethora of issues and a tendency to experience unpleasant feelings that can cause unpleasant behavior if not managed well.

I have been transparent about myself and my feelings. I am accountable to practice skills that I have learned to fair the storm. But she, as a committed life partner and wife, is accountable to respond to my transparencies and open and honest communication about what I am going through.

I have a choice to use, act out, hurt others or have an episode that leads to regret and shame.

She also has a choice to be understanding, compassionate, patient and not trigger me to loose it.

"Honey, my arm is fvcked up bad and I am feeling so hurt by this injury because my training means so much to me."

"Oh, honey, its not that bad, you look great and even you bad arm is bigger than most all the guys in the gym right now."

"Honey, it a little about my size, it is a little about my strength, but it is more so about the loss of my greatest tool and therapy for remaining sober. Honey, I have invested 5 years of discipline and commitment to this new lifestyle that has allowed me to sustain my ability to remain sober. This has been the place where I have been able to move all the heavy things in my life from my head to my hands to the weight and off my chest. It has been my rage, my anger, my tears and my glorious victories over the demons that have haunted me for my lifetime. This injury has broken my heart. I am devastated by the loss of my ability to train like I ounce did. I'm not taking it well. I may need some space for a while so I can deal."

I can only hope that she can come to understand that an episode can be deterred if she would just sincerely grieve or empathize with me. I mean I am opening up just like a women wants a man to. Yet they (and others in our lives) at times don't have the tools developed to handle it when they get what they had hoped for in their man. A sensitive, transparent, humble man who can share his deepest feeling without some macho man persona.

There are more than many times that she knows just what to do or say or when to come and go. Other times it's like she really doesn't want to deal with Mr. Issues.

In here lies my challenge: know it, recognize it, embrace it and minimize the collateral damage by leaning on a support system outside of those we live with and are closest to us. Our issues don't have to effect their lives if we try our best to make it that way.

It's a process of exploration and discovery of ourselves and our behavior tendencies and making others aware of them and needing both parties to be accountable to support methods and practices to see it through without hurting ourselves or others. Simply complex.

I know we've spoke many times through PM's and other private means B, but I have no shame in thanking you for all the help and advice you have given me when I had doubts anyone else had been 'there'. Anyone able to call you friend would be considered lucky and blessed in my book and I thank you for being mine.
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NO Jay, thank you for being mine.

"You can't keep it (your recovery) unless you give it away"
 
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