Disturbing Observations...

[ManBeast]

Why do people seem to think of PCT and cycle support as an afterthought? These are the things that keep/get your body back to normal when you are done with a cycle. They should never be an afterthought (although I'll admit its hard to know exactly what you'll do for them until you have an idea of what your cycle is), and the number of threads that I've seen since I've been back where there is no PCT or even asking about PCT scares the crap outta me. All I see is people trying to setup cycles where they can pump the most into their body in the shortest period of time. It is behaviours like this that lead to the major negative attention that this kinda stuff does not need.

It is really hard to blame the manufacturers as well, because they have to be very careful about what they write on their websites and labels to be able to continue selling these compounds to the public.

I really think that the thread by Gerbil:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html#post3177184

Needs to be stickied and added to the proper stickies/faq/etc.

ManBeast

 

[ManBeast]

75 views and nobody has anything to say eh?

*shamless self-bump*

ManBeast

 

[montesj88]

I agree with you ManBeast. I came to this site maybe a year ago wanting to run a cycle. After researching and reading through everyone's mistake it turned me off of it...well at least for the next few years. A couple of my friends have run cycles and its sad when they dont know what their taking let alone a what a PCT is. You can only help them so much...especially when their stuck in their ways thinking that if they just inject something inside them that their goin to look like Arnold in his prime. People are getting lazy and just want quick results. I think technology plays a role in that everyone has everything at their fingertips and dont like to wait anymore and in turn want to get big quick. Maybe an additional sticky could be of all the horror stories that people have told about having to be on HRT/TRT the rest of their lives because they did not properly research their cycle and have a proper PCT lined up.

 

[Jonny784]

75 views and nobody has anything to say eh?

*shamless self-bump*

ManBeast

I agree with the motion to stickie. The referenced thread is straightforward and quality.

I think the psychology behind neglecting PCT's is that people are more concerned with the short term gains first and foremost. It's only after they've finished their cycle that they realize they have to PCT, continue eating, and keep training properly to retain their gains. It's all about our instant gratification nature. When planning a cycle, I try to focus on where I'll be 5 months or a year from now, not one month.

 

[ManBeast]

Glad the site could help you in a positive way montes.

Amen to that Jonny.

ManBeast

 

[middleageguy]

Why do people seem to think of PCT and cycle support as an afterthought? These are the things that keep/get your body back to normal when you are done with a cycle. They should never be an afterthought (although I'll admit its hard to know exactly what you'll do for them until you have an idea of what your cycle is), and the number of threads that I've seen since I've been back where there is no PCT or even asking about PCT scares the crap outta me. All I see is people trying to setup cycles where they can pump the most into their body in the shortest period of time. It is behaviours like this that lead to the major negative attention that this kinda stuff does not need.

It is really hard to blame the manufacturers as well, because they have to be very careful about what they write on their websites and labels to be able to continue selling these compounds to the public.

I really think that the thread by Gerbil:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html#post3177184

Needs to be stickied and added to the proper stickies/faq/etc.

ManBeast

So... you've basically been "on cycle" for almost a year? Have you been using HCG? Do you have any kind of plan to come off and use PCT? You most assuredly are taking relatively large risks at this point, especially having used anadrol for three to four months straight. You really should have asked about all this before even thinking about touching gear.

ManBeast

ManBeast,

Your right about ignorance about PCT and also posts of year-round cycles.

But for the sake of asking, what PCT protocol would you recommend for the guy that {basically been "on cycle" for almost a year} to get his hormones back in balance?

It must be possible for these guys to recover or I would think professional bodybuilders would be forced into HRT for the reset of these lives. These guys must know the ticket to recover from very long cycles.

During this PCT which SERM below would be used by the guy that {basically been "on cycle" for almost a year} and what other products, dosages and why.


Nolvadex(tamoxifen citrate) pct
week 1; 20mg/day
week 2; 20mg/day
week 3; 10mg/day
week 4; 10mg/day

Clomid(clomiphene citrate) pct -
week 1; 50mg/day
week 2; 50mg/day
week 3; 25mg/day
week 4; 25mg/day


Torem(toremiphene citrate) pct
week 1; 90mg/day
week 2; 60mg/day
week 3; 60mg/day
week 4; 30mg/day

 

[ManBeast]

He would probably need to start tapering down on plain test while using HCG to un-atrophy his nuts, and then start on some serious clomid therapy combined with DAA and maybe erase/erase pro. (I know I've been stating the DAA and Erase/Erase pro a lot lately, and its because I think there is some serious good synergy with those products and clomid). I would guess a minimum of 8 weeks clomid therapy at like 150/150/100/100/100/100/50/50.

ManBeast

 

[Gerbil]

I have a strange feeling the lack of pct is a combination of people trying to sell their products and people thinking they are helping their friends by giving them prohormones without informing them what they are getting into. Look at every single website selling prohormones and you will see none of them will mention SERMs which is because they cant sell or prescribe them. On top of this most people have no idea what in the world anabolics are. If you ask people on the street 9/10 if not all will think steroids are a stand alone product. I am happy seeing people posting here even if they don't read the stickies because atleast they have people setting them straight instead of them ruining their endocrine system.

 

[megamutent8]

what blows my mind is people start a cycle without even having PCT on hand, I can not comprehend that type of thinking....when I started the first thing I had was my PCT before anything else

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

what blows my mind is people start a cycle without even having PCT on hand, I can not comprehend that type of thinking....when I started the first thing I had was my PCT before anything else

Yeah seriously i when I plan a cycle, what consumes my thoughts is how extensive of a pct will I need so I can have the best possible recovery process. Planning a cycle is freaking easy, but the pct is the most crucial part and I'll buy whatever I need for no matter what.

 

[MidwestBeast]

Always been like that and always will be.

Darwinism at its finest.

 

[mattrag]

Always been like that and always will be.

Darwinism at its finest.

Yip. Natural selection.

 

[dannyn2007]

Good post manbeast! I used to live I'n Hawaii and the two supplement store I usually go to that sells prohormones sells these 16...17...18 year old kids prohormones and when the kids ask for post cycle, they either recommend there OTC pct (which is 6bromo and formestane stack) or pink magic with liver care. Makes me sick knowing that the workers don't know what they are talking about and still gives advice. The point is, there will always be people who will be like "what's pct?" or "I don't need it, I feel fine" .

 

[Matthersby]

Yeah seriously i when I plan a cycle, what consumes my thoughts is how extensive of a pct will I need so I can have the best possible recovery process. Planning a cycle is freaking easy, but the pct is the most crucial part and I'll buy whatever I need for no matter what.

Amen. I feel the gear is about 1/4 of the cost of a responsible cycle. All other costs are to minimize risks and sides, assisting recovery and maximizing long term gains.

 

[ManBeast]

Yeup.. I spent just as much if not more on my PCT/support suppliments for my cycles as I did for the gear.

ManBeast

 

[iliketosquat]

Well its because most noobies dont care a lot for the PCT because its the juice that gets you big. Yes, the PCT keeps the gains and recovers you which is most important but new guys dont really think that way, they just care about pinning and getting bigger. I am a noob starting my first cycle in april but i have already spent 200 dollars on supporting supps, NOT even including PCT yet, just **** like liver support, antioxidant, etc. Why people half ass the PCT and start cycling without supporting supps/PCT is beyond me.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Yeup.. I spent just as much if not more on my PCT/support suppliments for my cycles as I did for the gear.

ManBeast

I'm saying bro. U want to solidify those gains in the best way.

 

[Gerbil]

I easily spend double what I spend on PHs on support and pct. Of course 90% of PH's are really cheap.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

I easily spend double what I spend on PHs on support and pct. Of course 90% of PH's are really cheap.

Hell yeah. Next pct of mine is gonna include Clomid, Exemestane, DAA, Lean xtreme, Osta, CJC 1295(no dac) and Ipamorelin. I'll b damned if I lose any gains haha.

 

[Jonny784]

Hell yeah. Next pct of mine is gonna include Clomid, Exemestane, DAA, Lean xtreme, Osta, CJC 1295(no dac) and Ipamorelin. I'll b damned if I lose any gains haha.

Damn son that's a hell of a PCT stack. Have all your bases covered and then some. I've never used the Ipam, but I've had good results with GHRP-2 for appetite stimulation and GH release benefits during cycle and PCT.

With regards to the Ostarine, do you think it's ideal for PCT? I know it's still being researched and has been used without negatives in PCT before. But I would think since it binds to the androgen receptor, it would still have some downregulating effect on your natural testosterone production. Not gonna shut you down like an AAS of course, but still might slow you down. Then again it might be just enough to ease the transition, so you're still somewhat anabolic with the Osta in your system, but your natural testosterone production is still coming back online. I dunno. And I guess no one really knows for sure. But just speculating.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Damn son that's a hell of a PCT stack. Have all your bases covered and then some. I've never used the Ipam, but I've had good results with GHRP-2 for appetite stimulation and GH release benefits during cycle and PCT.

With regards to the Ostarine, do you think it's ideal for PCT? I know it's still being researched and has been used without negatives in PCT before. But I would think since it binds to the androgen receptor, it would still have some downregulating effect on your natural testosterone production. Not gonna shut you down like an AAS of course, but still might slow you down. Then again it might be just enough to ease the transition, so you're still somewhat anabolic with the Osta in your system, but your natural testosterone production is still coming back online. I dunno. And I guess no one really knows for sure. But just speculating.

Lol this pct is gonna cost me like $360. Ostarine is not suppressive at a moderate dose and plus the other aids in my pct should b enough for a full recovery.

 

[mattrag]

Yeup.. I spent just as much if not more on my PCT/support suppliments for my cycles as I did for the gear.

ManBeast

That's how it usually pans out for me as well. Health support and pct usually is around 5x the actual ph/aas bottle. Unless it's something like sdrol where it's closer to 8x lol. (sdrol clones are so cheap)

 

[jbryand101b]

pct and supports are a waste of money, just get a bottle of centrum, and pink magic, your good.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

pct and supports are a waste of money, just get a bottle of centrum, and pink magic, your good.

Don't forget the tribulus too bro, keeps your dick working.

 

[jbryand101b]

Don't forget the tribulus too bro, keeps your dick working.

tru dat

 

[mattrag]

Don't forget the tribulus too bro, keeps your dick working.

And black liver to assure all the alcohol use goes toward healing the liver.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

And black liver to assure all the alcohol use goes toward healing the liver.

And cocaine for better pumps.

 

[ManBeast]

I also wonder how many people get told they are "too young" or "not ready" and re-register with a differnt account and lie to get the advice they want... LOL I hope they realize in the end they are just f*ckin themselves...

ManBeast

 

[GMG760]

In reality, these people are just taking their stupid genetics out of the gene pool... It might actually be for the best... Just sayin'.

 

[jaderjader321]

i read a dudes post about a week ago on elitefitness and he was saying he felt somewhat surpressed after a long and hard run on ostarine, but i guess theres still lots of actuall research to be done with such a new compound like that. id like to get some and throw it into my pct at a moderate dose and see how i do with gains kept and how i felt with the suppressiveness as opposed to other cycles without the ostrine in my pct, should be a good guage by comparison id think...

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

i read a dudes post about a week ago on elitefitness and he was saying he felt somewhat surpressed after a long and hard run on ostarine, but i guess theres still lots of actuall research to be done with such a new compound like that. id like to get some and throw it into my pct at a moderate dose and see how i do with gains kept and how i felt with the suppressiveness as opposed to other cycles without the ostrine in my pct, should be a good guage by comparison id think...

I'll b doing the same thing my next pct.

 

[mattrag]

I'll b doing the same thing my next pct.

Im Doing it now.

 

[ManBeast]

f*ck a bunch of pct

You must hate your balls and gains, but that's fine with me man.

ManBeast

 

[SoJoocy]

Guy I know jumped on Test P, asked him what support supps he was running, got a blank stare, asked him what PCT he was going to run, blank stare plus "you're full of it I don't need any of that crap"

Which reminds me he came off 2 weeks ago now I think, wonder how he is doing lol.

 

[ManBeast]

God bless the dumb and the ignorant, cuz I know I sure as hell won't...

ManBeast

 

[ManBeast]

LoL sorry man, I couldn't tell, there's just been so much stupidity lately. I try and use smilies to indicate when I'm f*ckin around, I've found it sometimes helps, LOL

ManBeast

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

LoL sorry man, I couldn't tell, there's just been so much stupidity lately. I try and use smilies to indicate when I'm f*ckin around, I've found it sometimes helps, LOL

ManBeast

Lol it sad our sarcasm is taken literally cuz there's so many focking retards on here.

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

Im Doing it now.

How is that going bro?

 

[Dr.Stri8ed]

cocaine works better stacked with crank.

Hell yeah thats the "Stay up for a week" stack bro.

 

[BigKrabbe]

Manbeast,
First of all great thread, I am generally disgusted by peoples choices when I come to Androgen use. PCT is absolutely a necessary part of any cycle, sh*t sometimes WITH proper pct/support supps recovery still sucks. With pct being a relatively new thing (mid 90s?) Becoming mainstream, how did people who juiced in the 60s, 70s, and 80s recover and manage to keep any muscle???

 

[ManBeast]

I believe it had to do with the mildness of the gains on a cycle back then as compared to now. The less you gain on a cycle, the easier it is to hold on to. They didn't do these nuts ass huge bulkers followed by cuts to the point of near 0% bodyfat either. And when they bulked it was on eggs, meat, cheese, bread, not junk. But I think the biggest point was that the cycles were much milder and the gains easier to hold on to.

ManBeast

 

[Gerbil]

Well there are methods of pct without a serm, also I believe if you just look at modern bodybuilders vrs older bodybuilders, my guess is that they dosed less then modern bodybuilders, focusing more on symmetry then size.

 

[jbryand101b]

Sarms still supress hpta function

 

[ManBeast]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm google here i come...

ManBeast

 

[middleageguy]

Well I understand the Pulse protocol was developed back in the 80’s to save your nuts when a SERM was not available.

Dr. D's guide, "How to Pulse Orals" Link ---:> http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/62121-how-pulse-orals.html

All covered in the above classic anabolicminds thread.
I also found reference to "Dr.D pulse method" at Link ---:> http://www.epistane.com/

I say even if you Pulse use a SERM in PCT. You may get away without it, but why not use a SERM?

Manbeast,
First of all great thread, I am generally disgusted by peoples choices when I come to Androgen use. PCT is absolutely a necessary part of any cycle, sh*t sometimes WITH proper pct/support supps recovery still sucks. With pct being a relatively new thing (mid 90s?) Becoming mainstream, how did people who juiced in the 60s, 70s, and 80s recover and manage to keep any muscle???

I believe it had to do with the mildness of the gains on a cycle back then as compared to now. The less you gain on a cycle, the easier it is to hold on to. They didn't do these nuts ass huge bulkers followed by cuts to the point of near 0% bodyfat either. And when they bulked it was on eggs, meat, cheese, bread, not junk. But I think the biggest point was that the cycles were much milder and the gains easier to hold on to.

ManBeast

Well there are methods of pct without a serm, also I believe if you just look at modern bodybuilders vrs older bodybuilders, my guess is that they dosed less then modern bodybuilders, focusing more on symmetry then size.

 

[jaycuda]

75 views and nobody has anything to say eh?

*shamless self-bump*

ManBeast

It is just a lack of knowledge on the consumers' part. Since companies can not legally say " PCT requires a SERM ", most people have no clue that they need one. My guess would be most people see the label and read " Increases strength/LBM " and automatically want to buy it without reading anything else or researching whats in the product. A vast majority of people have got into the habit of not reading whats in whatever they are putting into their bodies; how many people do you know that actually read the nutritional facts of what they're eating/drinking?

 

[ManBeast]

Judging by the people I see at walmart... not nearly enough...

ManBeast

 

[jaycuda]

Judging by the people I see at walmart... not nearly enough...

ManBeast

Exactly, and in most cases I'd rather people be overweight(to a point) then drinking or eating most diet foods. Aesthetics get slightly better from the latter but the studies I've read on non-nutritive ingredients don't lead to very good results on the inside of the body.

 

[ManBeast]

Yeah... I love how when you walk into my walmart, the latest fad diet pills are right there.. and there's always at least one skinny and one obeese person looking at them

ManBeast

 

[Gerbil]

Weird thing is that my walmart, full of toothless hillbillies or college students. They are so varied, it is hilarious to see them blend.

Yeah... I love how when you walk into my walmart, the latest fad diet pills are right there.. and there's always at least one skinny and one obeese person looking at them

ManBeast