Dietary Carb vs Fat; which will result in more fat storage
- Thread starter d2thez
- Start date
sheepdog.tx
Member
Rock on Jiigzz, thanks for laying out the info most of us are too lazy or dumb to go hunt down ^_^
Jiigzz
Legend
Bare in mind the data is for the general populace or for those who do not remain lean (or at the lower end of 'normal') year round for health reasons, not body composition reasons.
Theres a little bit of data comparing low fat diets to high fat diets on weight loss with lots of the data conflicting. The main reason this occurs is because they do not standardize protein but rather focus only on the low carb, low fat portion which can skew the results. In some cases the overall calorie intake may not be standardized.
When protein is standardized and diets are isocaloric, there is no statistical difference between a low fat or low carb diet on fat loss (differentiating between weight loss and fat loss is important).
People also often say things like "everyone is different so one cannot suggest a diet that works for another".. This is both true and false. If people are adjusted to the same diets for a prolonged period of time, the way the body metabolizes and utilizes food is predictable. We know that low carbers have a reversible form of insulin resistance to ensure the limited amount of carbs ingested are used where we need them most (brain and red blood cells); and conversely the opposite applies to high carbers.
Where the statement becomes true is when you create a diet plan without first assessing their current macronutrient intake, personal preferences and tolerance to substrates. Also remember that there are many diets out there that have limited, if any data evaluating their efficacy. In those cases, we can only make assumptions based on how we expect the body to behave but any degree of certainty is lost when throwing unknowns into the equation.
Also bare in mind that studies themselves may not adequetly investigate an outcome prior to making a "guesstimation". In some cases, conclusions are drawn based on poorly developed measurements or those not thouroughly examined (like what happened to fat a long time ago).
The body behaves predictably under certain conditions and differently in others but once you standardize intakes, you can assess to some degree of confidence certain outcomes. However results become obscured once you add variables that stray away from what any study has evaluated.
I tend to stay away from these debates because once someone states "well everyone is different" or "thats not how it works for me" then there is no outcome either party can come to a mutual understanding on. I simply advise them that relying on subjective measures is not a good tool for understanding outcomes. If you are overweight, do you feel athersclorosis occuring? Likely not.
Also look at the msg study where people reacted differently when they were told one meal was high in msg whereas another meal had none. They got the 'typical' symptons of msg intake with ine meal and none with the other despite both meals actually containing equal msg. Subjective is a poor basis for determining outcomes.
Tl;Dr
Montego1
Well-known member
From past posts of yours, studies (maybe just Lane Norton studies) are all that matters.....funny how this changed to real life experience.
bdcc
Legend
The Solution
Legend
I dont only post layne norton studies
when it comes down to it science is not everything
Look at Layne he advocated dextrose/malto 5 years ago, now look at what he suggests
Look at alan back in the day and what he suggested and how he shows meal frequency/timing to be far less superior than all the bro's made it to be 5-6 years ago. and why a lot of people show a lower meal frequency superior for Muscle Protein Synthesis.
Not everyone has the same body
Not everyone processes fats or carbs better than X or Y. I know what works for me, so i do what my body tells me to
I dont do what a "Study" Said because it worked for that person, and i dont want to follow a high fat diet that makes me feel like crap all day long, bloated, and my workouts suck. Because this "Study" Told me to
The Solution
Legend
I site studies because most of the time people are clueless when it comes to dieting and supplements and to give them "Expert" Opinions of people who research or study it for a living.
Most people wont take what you tell them based off factual evidence on yourself as advice to their liking.
Montego1
Well-known member
A while ago I posted my personal experience with BCAA supplementation to wich you ridiculed and parroted numerous studies. I simply said the same thing you said above. Your study siteing didn't change my mind, because it works for me.
Next time let's remember this conversation.
The Solution
Legend
(Since they were studied on endurance athletes by Chuck Rudolph over 7-8 years ago when they formulated xtend)
Anyone who sips on them all day long just de-merits Muscle Protein Synthesis (as many people think that is optimal) which we both know is untrue. (not saying you do) but that is the majority of what people think they are great for. When they are in reality wasting their money.a
Anyone who sips on them all day long just de-merits Muscle Protein Synthesis (as many people think that is optimal) which we both know is untrue. (not saying you do) but that is the majority of what people think they are great for. When they are in reality wasting their money.a
sheepdog.tx
Member
Its funny though when i cite studies as I originally did with the link to 18 studies you and team PES didn't take that factual evidence, continuing to spout that not ones tracking the protien ratios. Out of one side of your mouth youre saying you trust studies cause people are clueless then you say "body states differently than the study you told me", "ill take that over a "Study" anyday.", "I know my body better than one study" (18 actually). So which is it? Do you trust science and the yolo-bros are idiots or are you yolo'broing on me with "bro i know my body better than science yo".
I find that disingenuous as studies showed and mentioned both high fat/moderate protien and moderate fat/high protien as successful. While things can and do vary from person to person generally the mechanisms do work the same. For example neoglucogenesis is something constant with everyone, you are no more exempt from it than I.
In fact the only variable not known that someone can hide behind is metabolic state of the individual as age, sex, height, weight, activity level are easy to calculate in. So with that said to suggest low carb with not work as well for X person and Y if those variables are static is to suggest either metabolically theres huge variances person to person (which is almost never the case, its fairly close) or your suggestion well known mechanisms such as ketosis, fasted conditions, glycogen store usage, etc are all wrong.. that the studies are wrong, and that factual evidence as you put it is wrong.
Its either one way or the other, stop flip-floping. If you're going to take a position to suggest me and the research i rode into this thread on are bullsh than stick with the position. if you love your carbs fine, my position was not that you can be lean on carbs, its that research shows on average that low carb can keep you leaner.
Type O Hero
Banned
Most people over think this stuff. I did when I was younger.
Nowadays I can write out all of the must-know info on like 3 sheets of notebook paper lol
Complex stuff indeed
The Solution
Legend
Studies can only be taken with a grain of salt, take a study and apply it to 50 people
i can bet the results in the study wont hold merit for all of the individuals.
On average people who go low carb are on a lower caloric diet which means a caloric surplus which means lose weight. Also Carbs hold 3g of water per carb you ingest, so if you disperse of carbs the individual will hold less water and hold less weight.
Many wont do the same on a high carb and low fat diet think the Chinese people. i bet they walk around obese like americans do. Quite the opposite.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
That is such a freaking red herring that it's not even funny.
The Solution
Legend
Most people over think this stuff. I did when I was younger.
Nowadays I can write out all of the must-know info on like 3 sheets of notebook paper lol
Complex stuff indeed
Bingo
Eat what suits your body
eat what fuels your workouts
Do what gives you optimal performance
Dont think you can read about Jay Cutler and eat his diet plan and make his results.
Same could be said about Dave Palumbo and his Keto Diet, some people thrive off it, some dont.
The Solution
Legend
Right because Chinese people's diets are mostly high carbs yet walk around in better shape and have better health than america whos diets are primary higher fat due to the majority of america who eat fast food and processed foods that are laden with oils and preservatives
America one of the worst countries when it comes to obesity and health problems. There is some practical evidence.
Not many people/studies are shown on people who do workout or are in great health conditions.
Most of the studies published are on a random sample of people.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Actually, it's a red herring, which is a statement that diverts from the original point. You do this frequently in these kinds of threads. Comparing "data" from two different countries that have completely different cultures (read this as food choices) is highly misleading and this is all correlation and not causation.
The Solution
Legend
They are still Human
They still consume food
and they still walk the earth everyday
Culture or not its "Practical" Evidence, just like Americans are practical evidence, Americans are utilized in studies and just like Rats are practice evidence in studies.
All are aspects that fold science and give us data
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Correlation is NOT practical evidence. Try again.
The Solution
Legend
Correlation comes from too large of a surplus, Carbs or not it wont matter
The only reason why low carb may show a better loss is due to less glycogen, less water being held (3g per carb), and that individual tolerating a higher fat/lower carb diet better.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
WTF are you talking about? Do you even know how to extrapolate data and the difference between causation and correlation?
The Solution
Legend
Do you even read thread title?
Dietary Carb vs Fat; which will result in more fat storage
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Nice deflection. Yes, I can clearly read the thread title, but someone here (that would be YOU) decided to steer the thread with irrelevant statements.
Jiigzz
Legend
I am sure I read this somewhere else in this thread.
I only read the first half lol
The Solution
Legend
Jiigzz
Legend
Better than the MT Breakthrough thread
I can imagine LOL.
Young Gotti
Well-known member
go on stitcher, search for bodybuilding, find Ben Pakulski & Dr Wilson discuss metabolic flexibility episode 006
not saying it's the end all be all, but it's a good listen and could lend itself to some useful information that your looking for OP
not saying it's the end all be all, but it's a good listen and could lend itself to some useful information that your looking for OP
sheepdog.tx
Member
1.) Youre still flip flopping, you've only added backpedaling which isn't helping ^_^
2.) Way to borderline racism stereotype asian people and americans. Nothing says I'm an objective and worth hearing out like prejudice.
3.) "Studies can only be taken with a grain of salt, take a study and apply it to 50 people... i can bet the results in the study wont hold merit for all of the individuals.": Actually yes the results are just that. A test to see what a pie slice of what an average individual will get. Not outliers no, those are actually rare. See a bell chart for example...
4.) "On average people who go low carb are on a lower caloric diet which means a caloric surplus which means lose weight": I assume you mean
caloric deficit? Again if you read the studies we're showing you in most cases the low carb people are eating equal or sometimes greater calories than the carb groups. Again read, the truth will set you free flat earther.
5.) "The only reason why low carb may show a better loss is due to less glycogen, less water being held (3g per carb), and that individual tolerating a higher fat/lower carb diet better": How much glycogen do you think the average person stores? 200g, 300g? I'm not sure but i can tell you that a session of fasted HIIT can empty it so its not much. So rounding waaay up you're looking at what a kilo of weight, 2.2 pounds roughly? Wow. If you read the studies the average lost was something like 17ish pounds difference, often in short windows. That all water too? Did i forget to mention many low carbs eat heavy processed meat diets where they take in alot of salt but no diuretic veggies as well as often drop sodium heavy sodas due to fear of sweetners? Yeah my water weight actually went UP on low carb so your arguement doesnt hold water, full pun intended.
6.) As i said if you want to eat carbs thats fine. Keep in mind youre eating alot of pesticide laiden GMO, HFCS sweeten frankenfood thats damaging both the environmentand our economy with its subsidies. You're also doing long term harm to your body, which we as tax payers will almost certainly pay for in one way or another. You're taking in dyes and perservatives that are shown to be mood and brain affecting as well. In fact studies show your brain works better on fat than sugar. But its your body, at the end of the day if you want to suck down Karbo-wonder and instant oats with your whey i hope you get the results you want. We're simply saying theres another way, a way proven by science. You dont have to join us but denying its results just makes you look like.. well.. how you look right now.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
The body has far more glycogen reserves than what is depleted from a session of HIIT and, at rest, the brain runs off of fats.
sheepdog.tx
Member
Im speaking from doing an Eat-Stop-Eat style 24 hour fast first then HIIT. I may still have some glycogen after that but I tend to see ketosis form ketosticks by then.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
That's an extraneous scenario and with limited application much like some of Ivy's work on nutrient timing.
sheepdog.tx
Member
Id say fasted HIIT probably a quick way to cut the supply and start chipping away at it. Maybe it just takes time but ketone production suggests while maybe not 100% glycogen depletion you're starting to switch to fat adaption mode, using a greater share. You might not be on the path yet but youre quickly on your way. Whatever the case im not sure theres a way to calculate glycogen stores but by no means would I call them vast. You'd dont have to go too deep into a triathlon to get introduced to what bonking feels like.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Depending on the person, the liver holds ~100-150g of glycogen and up to 2g/lb of LBM. You're looking at ~2000kcals worth of glycogen storage and you have to specifically deplete them, but that's retarded unless you're cutting weight or depleting to achieve supercompensation for a competition. I don't know where you get your "information," buts it's often incorrect and you lack a basic understanding of ex phys.
The Solution
Legend
yes because all carbs = sugar, and man rice and potatoes really are full of HFCS and sweetened foods. oh my lord i am going into a sugar coma thinking about eating a sweet potato.
Great for your Study. the higher fat intake I have personally, the worse i feel, the worse my performance is in the gym, and the faster i get bloated, not to mention my mental focus and clairty are far worse in a higher fat diet (Surplus/Deficit). I guess I should not listen to my body and read a piece of paper to get optimal results.
Way to try and throw a curveball with the physique comment at the end, I have actually got my best results on a higher carb diet compared to a higher fat diet both of which i have ran in a surplus and a deficit to see how i respond and what works best for me personally. I took pictures and compared them and look much better on a higher carb diet. I must say Dr. K and all his clients sure show up shredded and win tons of pro-cards on a low fat diet year round, not to mention a lot of other contest prep coaches who utilize the same aspects (Layne Norton, Chris Aceto, Paul Rivelia, Tommy Jeffers, WNBF Pro Kurt Weidner, WNBF Pro Brian Whitacre etc.)
Guess these people and their clients are exceptions.
Read the "Studies" Bro.
sheepdog.tx
Member
Rodja said:
The Solution said:
Yes lets do that:
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You're right, maybe im missing a basic understanding of ex phys (wow that screams self-importance). Maybe all these PH Ds don't know either. Maybe you should write this stuff down for them since we're all too dense.
For the record I never claimed you'll be glycogen free by X doing Y in Z time. Only that fasting + training = very fast depletion of glycogen which is about as common sense as saying running a car at X speed without refueling will use gas faster than idealing and refueling daily.
People get shredded on crack, you down for that "supplement"? What about crystal meth, that really helps drop the body fat. Or maybe some HIV? All proven methods of getting cut. Theres studies that say there downsides but studies as you say don't reflect reality right? Cause no way those guys you mentioned juice right? Cause we know on the clean and clear you have to be super careful on diet right? Cause Kali muscle got swoll and cut on ramen noodles and mac & cheese. You're saying because someone in a magazine with sponserships who you know very little about what theyre on says suck down thier massgainer and eat threes pounds of sweet potatoes a day knows better than double blind clinical studies? lol seriously are you hearing yourself here?
Montego1
Well-known member
Who gives a shyt. People gun do what dey gun do. If they do decide to lose weight it will be either by doing
A) whatever they deem easiest
B) whatever fits their lifestyle
C) whatever they enjoy most
You can lose weight however your want and one way isn't better then another for EVERY American. Now...shhhhhhhhhh. Time for a nap.
A) whatever they deem easiest
B) whatever fits their lifestyle
C) whatever they enjoy most
You can lose weight however your want and one way isn't better then another for EVERY American. Now...shhhhhhhhhh. Time for a nap.
sheepdog.tx
Member
lol great post. Alrighty, good point to move on. With the OP and all other parties the best, peace-hout!
RecompMan
Well-known member
I fart on carbs,
I don't on fats.
Just kidding.
There are some pretty interesting studies on how fats can activate nuclear receptors and cause weight loss
Also how saturated fats can also raise insulin and leptin (fat over feeding) and this over feeding and be as effecient as everyone's "carb up" when done the right way
I don't on fats.
Just kidding.
There are some pretty interesting studies on how fats can activate nuclear receptors and cause weight loss
Also how saturated fats can also raise insulin and leptin (fat over feeding) and this over feeding and be as effecient as everyone's "carb up" when done the right way
Jiigzz
Legend
One shows enhanced fatty acid mobilization after a 23hr fast and another after 36hrs. Really? Why would you fast 23+hrs just to slightly imprive plasma concentrations of fatty acids? You are aware that fat loss can occur even with constant carbohydrate feeding, no?
Studies comparing low fat and low carb:
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And further
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And Further
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Good job...you basically posted what I already covered regarding glycogen supercompensation and then posted irrelevant information regarding fasting and you very much so made an erroneous statement regarding glycogen depletion and HIIT. Get back to me when you understand substrate utilization during a specific metabolic environment.
Jiigzz
Legend
At the end of the day, both work well for weight loss so it's entirely up to you which route you take. Studies are also a limiting factor as we also tend to have some sort of structure to our food intakes that isn't usually assessed in a study (well, the more serious of us do).
Things like refeeds, peri-workout nutrition, macronutrient ratios of certain meals and so on and forth can skew the results to favour one routine over an other. Can we say with any certainty that these will help with nutrient shuttling, starve off fat gain in a surplus or enhance fat loss? Not really. In the end, we can only make an assumption as to how the body will utilize food based on what limited knowledge we have of the entire system.
Do what works but be open to new ideas
Things like refeeds, peri-workout nutrition, macronutrient ratios of certain meals and so on and forth can skew the results to favour one routine over an other. Can we say with any certainty that these will help with nutrient shuttling, starve off fat gain in a surplus or enhance fat loss? Not really. In the end, we can only make an assumption as to how the body will utilize food based on what limited knowledge we have of the entire system.
Do what works but be open to new ideas
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Bingo. I've tried everything from high carb/low to IF to CBL to Paleo/Primal. What works for you at a given age may not work in a decade and you may have employ a new system.
The Solution
Legend
Fast forward to the 25 minute mark
good info on a keto vs carb diet and results in a Study From Dr Wilson, Starnes and Meadows
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After 2 weeks (Keto group and Carb Ground ((50% of intake from Carbs))
- Carb Group gained more muscle than keto group
- Keto Group lost double fat
** most bodybuilders will never go up to 50% carbs in overall diet
** Kcals were at Maintainance (Both Groups went up around 4lbs each)
** Keto groups had no carbs for all 8 weeks, no refeeds etc.
good info on a keto vs carb diet and results in a Study From Dr Wilson, Starnes and Meadows
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After 2 weeks (Keto group and Carb Ground ((50% of intake from Carbs))
- Carb Group gained more muscle than keto group
- Keto Group lost double fat
** most bodybuilders will never go up to 50% carbs in overall diet
** Kcals were at Maintainance (Both Groups went up around 4lbs each)
** Keto groups had no carbs for all 8 weeks, no refeeds etc.