DHEA help!
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DetroitHammer
Well-known member
No more than 25mg per day. DHEA aromatizes rapidly and will make matters worse. I would personally stay away form it. DHEA will not bring you back.
bigpapa
Well-known member
DHEA will help. 25-50mgs would be fine. it does help in the sexual area if you are lacking while on cycle. it does have aromatizing properties, but at such a low dose, it really should not have that much of an effect.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
I wouild say that 25-50mg wouldn't hurt, but I will respectfully disagree, saying that it wouldn't help one iota.
TimberLakers
Well-known member
DHEA may not have worked for Detroit, but myself and several others had much smoother cycles dosing at 50mg in the morning. Good luck.
3dmuscle9122
New member
Hope you have some clomid on hand if not say good bye to your nuts for awhile.
DR.D
Well-known member
Yeah, I like it too at 100mg every morning. DHEA got a bad rap somehow, but I've been using it since the late 90's and never had any probs except rapid hair growth. That's the ONLY side I've ever noticed at 100mg or less.
russy_russ
Active member
I've used DHEA in the past with doses up to 250-300mg ED without any sides.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
Did you have any blood work done to confirm lack of sides? I did. Using 250-300mgs a day for three months, I felt about the same. However, blood work showed that my test levels were down, and estradiol levels way up. If all you're going on is gut feeling for sides, I'd suggest getting blood work done to confirm your feelings. DHEA aromatizes very quickly into estrogen. It does not elevate test levels. Anything over 50mgs goes straight to estrogen. I currently take 50mgs a day, but I'm also on 500mgs of tes-c per week. Without blood work to validate the gut-feeling of DHEA, it's nothing more than a placebo effect.
DR.D
Well-known member
I agree with you that bloodwork can be very valuable indeed, but you still sound out of touch with your body. Get bloodword done to confirm your feeling? If I gave you a piece of paper with an official stamp on it and some information that contradicted reality, would that power of suggestion actually convince you that your true feelings were inaccurate?! Regardless what the results of bloodwork indicate, if your libido 'feels' right, isn't that the whole point anyway?
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
My wife wanted to lose weight, even though she was already thin. She was from Thailand and didn't speak English. I bought her some diet pills and told her they would suppress her appetite. She all but stopped eating, they were that effective. However, all I gave her was one tablet of vitamin c. The placebo worked because the mind convinced her it worked. Would you then recommend vitamin c as a diet pill?
I'm just saying that DHEA alone won't improve the libido. I know you're going to disagree, and if you feel it helps, then the benefit may not be a result of DHEA but rather the anticipation that it will. I've done blood work and it's more suppressive than anything else.
DR.D
Well-known member
I don't disagree with you. In fact, you made the same point that I was trying too. It is firmly established that anticipation produces an amplification of drug regiments, so much so that you may be able to reduce the dose and still acquire the same effect of a higher dose. It still requires a dose though, as it's only a conditioned boost of a relevant substrate. Placebo however, which is a purely psychosomatic phenomena (power of suggestion) is something completely different. In the case of placebo, there is no legitimate relevant substance to boost. It sounds as though your wife has exceptional mind power. Her will alone gets results when stacked with even a suggestion of assistance! Very impressive, nevertheless vulnerable to deception.
angel77
Active member
Dhea 50mg in am and 50mg in pm!!
50MG IN THE AM AND 50MG IN THE PM. IT DEFINATELY HELPED ME AS FAR AS PREVENTING TESTICULAR SHRINKAGE AND HELPED WITH LIBIDO UNTIL THE END OF THE CYCLE. I RAN HAVOC 20/30/40/40 AND SHUT DOWN HARD TOWARD THE END BUT THAT'S PART OF IT. I STOPPED RUNNING DHEA WHEN I STARTED PCT. THIS DOSE IS NOT ENOUGH TO AROMATIZE AND I HAD NO PROBLEMS. BE PREPARED FOR SHUT DOWN THOUGH. CLOMID WILL HELP. NOLVA WILL HURT LIBIDO. CHEERS, ANGEL77 :wink1:
50MG IN THE AM AND 50MG IN THE PM. IT DEFINATELY HELPED ME AS FAR AS PREVENTING TESTICULAR SHRINKAGE AND HELPED WITH LIBIDO UNTIL THE END OF THE CYCLE. I RAN HAVOC 20/30/40/40 AND SHUT DOWN HARD TOWARD THE END BUT THAT'S PART OF IT. I STOPPED RUNNING DHEA WHEN I STARTED PCT. THIS DOSE IS NOT ENOUGH TO AROMATIZE AND I HAD NO PROBLEMS. BE PREPARED FOR SHUT DOWN THOUGH. CLOMID WILL HELP. NOLVA WILL HURT LIBIDO. CHEERS, ANGEL77 :wink1:
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
I hate to sound like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, but what you just said is nonsense. DHEA can not and will not prevent testicular shinkage. Can you explain how you think that happens? And even 5mg of DHEA will aromatize, but it won't be enough to worry about. Are you suggesting that DHEA stays DHEA until it hits a certain level then starts to aromatize? ... DHEA improves subjective mood and decrease evening cortisol concentration, which is known to be elevated in depression, which accounts for the feeling of well being often expressed. One study showed that three months of daily 50-milligram doses of DHEA significantly improved the sense of "well-being," but it did not improve sex drive, as some claim...Because DHEA is converted to androstenedione and then testosterone, it has two chances to aromatize into estrogen- estrone from androstenedione, and estradiol from testosterone. As such, it is possible for increases in estrogen levels more than testosterone in men. Studies on the use of DHEA for erectile dysfunction in men and sexual function in men and women have been inconsistent. A one-year study involving 280 men and women found that 50 mg a day of DHEA improved libido in women over 70 but not in younger women or men.
Now, please explain how DHEA prevents testicular shrinkage.
angel77
Active member
I don't know the science behind it I'm just saying it worked for me. I know other experienced PH/Steroid users that run it for the same purpose. Have you used it during cycle before?
DR.D
Well-known member
Yeah, it can prevent testicular shrinkage. I've personally noted it too at times. Do some more homework and you'll find it. I've read old studies that demonstrated unique intrinsic orchidogenic results in several species. What was unusual is that the effect was unilaterally specific. Oh well, I'll take what I can get (lol).
I've taken DHEA off and on a lot since the late 90's. I know what it does. The CNS effect is surely more related to it's anti-GABAnergic actions, not just it's cort attenuating properties. Also, it's honestly gotta be one of the most androgenic compounds I've ever used. Estrogenic is not a descriptive term I would apply to any dose I've used, far from it. Plus, it does boost libido in a noticeable way at times and many people have reported this, and I've noted it myself. If you don't wanna try it or do the homework yourself, you can probably find a ton of my DHEA posts from years ago that have it all there.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
We agree that DHEA has anti-GABAnergic actions, so the mood improves. But seriously, have you ever done any reading on the subject? I challenge you to show me one study that supports taking DHEA prevents testicall shrinkage. I will buy you dinner if you can show me any evidence at all, that supports that insane theory. And let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm saying that if you have suppresed HPTA due to AAS, that DHEA will have zero impact on recovery and may actually worsen the condition. You can not dispute that with any empirical data whatsoever because it doesn't exist. Anyone who has ever been on AAS knows that, it's basic PCT 101. You may have posted information to the contrary in many previous posts, but repeating bad information does not make it correct over time. If it was wrong then, it's still wrong. And it's irresponsible to suggest that a young man can use DHEA to undo the suppression of HPTA due to AAS. I'm not one who believes in PHs, but they can hurt your liver and HPTA.
And as far as DHEA not being estrogenic, I won't even debate that because if you don't understand how aromatization works, I don't know where to start.
DHEA can improve one's mood. It can help ED in men over 70. It is produced by the adrenal gland and improves immune response. The other claims are simply too unbelievable.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
I take 50mg of DHEA a day, along with 600mg of test-c and 100mg of Nandralone per week. In order to help shrinkage, I take 400iu of HCG per week, divided into to 200iu per week. I also take AI to control estradiol. I get blood work done every month to check all levels. Nothing I do is based on gut feeling; it's backed by tests and research. Most AAS users are more educated than to use DHEA for shrinkage, but I'm not surprised that PH users would think that. If you know an "experienced" AAS user that takes DHEA for shrinkage, tell him to stop taking AAS; he's not ready.
angel77
Active member
I'm here to learn man. I appreciate all your knowledge and input. Thanks alot, angel77
badfish51581
Member
Couldn't an AI be throw in to help mitigate the aromatization? Isn't Superdrol NG and Dermacrine based on that principles? I haven't really heard feedback on either, but it would make sense to me.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
Yes, absolutley. A proven AI is essential to controlling aromatization... Camps are usually divided between AAS and PH. I'm on the AAS side and tend to have little faith in OTC AIs. I've heard of Rebound, XT and other stuff like Superdrol, but they are generally crap. I can tell you from bloodwork that Superdrol is worthless, absolutely worthless. If you want proper AI, get the real stuff like arimidex and have Noval on the side... Watch your liver as you cycle because PH can be harsh on it.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
Just overstated.
russy_russ
Active member
I used it for 3 weeks with a cycle of superdrol to try an combat libido... I don't take DHEA while not on a cycle. And since it was on a cycle, blood work would be very difficult to prove what was the fault of DHEA since it was taken with superdrol.
EDIT: 300mg ED DHEA did absolutely nothing for my lethargy. In fact, it seemed particularly worse that cycle.
badfish51581
Member
I was referring to supplementing high or low doses of DHEA with an AI. Superdrol NG (not the original pro-steroid) and Dermacrine, are supposed to be based on that combination. By preventing aromatization, it would allow for the conversions of DHEA-->Andro-->Test more readily by slowing/stopping aromatization. Like I mentioned, I haven't heard much feedback on either.
As far as OTC AI's I haven't seen anything conclusive stating they're not effective. I agree arimidex and letrozole are superior, but you can pick up cheap bulk ATD and Trione which makes them more convenient than liquid research stuff or more expensive pharm grade caps.
What bloodwork do you have showing Superdrol is crap? I'm assuming you're referring to the original pro-steroid. From personal experience and many other experienced AAS users it's a very potent compound.
marco wolf
Member
DHEA supplementation, in young men, raises levels of DHEA, DHEA-S and ADG. This suggests that DHEA does not aromatize to estrogen, but quickly metabolizes to testosterone, then DHT and then ADG.
Pharmacokinetics of dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites after long-term daily oral administration to healthy young men.
Acacio BD, Stanczyk FZ, Mullin P, Saadat P, Jafarian N, Sokol RZ.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) supplementation on the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites and the reproductive axis of healthy young men. DESIGN: A prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled pharmacokinetic study. SETTING: General Clinical Research Center and laboratories at the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California. PATIENT(S): Fourteen healthy men, ages 18-42 years. INTERVENTION(S): Daily oral administration of placebo (n = 5), 50 mg DHEA (n = 4), or 200 mg DHEA (n = 5) for 6 months. Blood samples were collected at frequent intervals on day 1 and at months 3 and 6 of treatment. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Quantification of DHEA, DHEA sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, T, E(2), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and 5alpha-androstane-3alpha-17beta-diol glucuronide (ADG). Physical examination, semen analysis, serum LH, FSH, prostate-specific antigen, and general chemistries were carried out. RESULT(S): Baseline DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG levels increased significantly from day 1 to months 3 and 6 in the DHEA treatment groups but not in the placebo group. No significant changes were observed in pharmacokinetic values. Clinical parameters were not affected. CONCLUSION(S): DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG increased significantly during 6 months of daily DHEA supplementation. Although the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites are not altered, sustained baseline elevation of ADG, a distal DHT metabolite, raises concerns about the potential negative impact of DHEA supplementation on the prostate gland.
Pharmacokinetics of dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites after long-term daily oral administration to healthy young men.
Acacio BD, Stanczyk FZ, Mullin P, Saadat P, Jafarian N, Sokol RZ.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) supplementation on the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites and the reproductive axis of healthy young men. DESIGN: A prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled pharmacokinetic study. SETTING: General Clinical Research Center and laboratories at the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California. PATIENT(S): Fourteen healthy men, ages 18-42 years. INTERVENTION(S): Daily oral administration of placebo (n = 5), 50 mg DHEA (n = 4), or 200 mg DHEA (n = 5) for 6 months. Blood samples were collected at frequent intervals on day 1 and at months 3 and 6 of treatment. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Quantification of DHEA, DHEA sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, T, E(2), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and 5alpha-androstane-3alpha-17beta-diol glucuronide (ADG). Physical examination, semen analysis, serum LH, FSH, prostate-specific antigen, and general chemistries were carried out. RESULT(S): Baseline DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG levels increased significantly from day 1 to months 3 and 6 in the DHEA treatment groups but not in the placebo group. No significant changes were observed in pharmacokinetic values. Clinical parameters were not affected. CONCLUSION(S): DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG increased significantly during 6 months of daily DHEA supplementation. Although the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites are not altered, sustained baseline elevation of ADG, a distal DHT metabolite, raises concerns about the potential negative impact of DHEA supplementation on the prostate gland.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
The "study" says that the 5 subjects that took 200mgs of DHEA a day saw an increase in DHEA levels, but no increased levels in Test, E2 or other values. What you can conclude, based on this "study," is that DHEA doesn't do anything. It increases DHEA levels in the blood, and that's it. The study isn't worth crap.
If you're on a cycle of PH, make sure you know exactly is in the PH before adding more DHEA. Methyl 1D is about 80mgs worth of DHEA and has an ineffective AI, so it aromatizes to estradiol in no time. So you wouldn't want to be taking that and then adding more DHEA. What you really need to do is get your blood checked, then you'll know what you need or don't need.
marco wolf
Member
ADG is a metabolite of DHT. In order to have an increased level of ADG, you must first have had an increased level of DHT.
So, even though DHEA doesn't permanently raise DHT levels, it does so temporarily. I'm assuming that you get an androgenic "rush" for a short time after ingesting DHEA which probably helps with lethargy. I am no expert, and this is a deduction on my part.
angel77
Active member
:thumbsup:
there should be no harm in it whatsoever. I will run it while on Superdrol as well.
there should be no harm in it whatsoever. I will run it while on Superdrol as well.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
angel77
Active member
The key benefit would be enhanced mood right?
luclyluciano
Well-known member
I've run DHEA @ 200 mgs per day and felt next to nothing. Yet I've Dermacrine Transdermal with great results....energy, test boost, mood etc
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
If you're on any kind of gear, even some PH, your DHEA levels tend to suffer. I got that from Dr Crisler, who is quite well known in the AAS circles, even among many professional athletes. So I'm not making any of this up. He recommends taking 50mg a day, although if your on some serious gear, like test at 500mg or more, then you may want to up it to 100mg. You actually may not feel a thing. The goal is to keep as much of your homeostasis in balance as you can, and adding DHEA will do just that.
Bigchourico
Well-known member
If it dosen't work why are you taking it???
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
I'm not taking it to prevent testicular shrinkage, which was the issue. That's the problem, a lot of people are looking for something to "work." It doesn't work any more than vitamin c "works. If you're on AAS, you need more DHEA. You won't feel a thing while taking it, so don't expect miracles.
angel77
Active member
marco wolf
Member
You originally said this, and later stated that even 5 mg of DHEA would aromatize. The only studies I've seen that mention increased estrogen levels were involving post menopausal women.
I'd be interested to see any studies you have read that support the aromatization of DHEA in men.
Also, there seems to be a contradiction in your posts. Maybe I've misunderstood your responses?
Bigchourico
Well-known member
So why do you take it???
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
DHEA will aromotize. That's the progression. It may be a slight amount, but the point is that it will eventually aromatize. There are so many studies on DHEA that I wouldn't know where to start. If you had read only studies that suggested DHEA only aromatizes in menapausal women, I'd like to know what search key you used because every study I've read, all the doctors I work with and every one experienced with AAS knows that DHEA aromatizes. This is actually the first forum I've ever been to that acts like there is some dispute as to DHEA aromatizing and treats DHEA as some mircale OTK cure all. Just a little research will help in understanding what DHEA actually does and should disspell all these myths... Please point out the contradiction... The only reason I even bothered to post was to help these young guys who might hurt themselves by thinking that DHEA prevents testcular shrinkage and that you can take all you want and not worry about E2. I'm not against DHEA at all, it's important, but some of the claims I've seen here are bizarre. You may notice that no one has been able to find any evidence of DHEA preventing testicular shrinkage. That's because it doesn't. In regards to DHEA aromatizing, if you can't find tons of data on the Internet with a simple DHEA search, let me know and I'll find URLs for you.
marco wolf
Member
The below post is from PUBMED. I don't have enough posts to link yet. Anyway, usually, the person making an assertion has the burden of proof. You have asserted that low doses of DHEA aromatize in men.
The production and aromatization of dehydroepiandrosterone in post-menopausal women.
Longcope C, Bourget C, Flood C.
Using infusions of [3H]dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and [14C]oestrogens, the metabolic clearance rates (MCRD) and blood production rates (PDB) of DHEA and the rate of aromatization of DHEA to oestrone and oestradiol were measured in 7 normal post-menopausal women. The mean +/- SEM value for MCRD was 1850 +/- 270 l/day and for PDB was 3.2 +/- 0.6 mg/day. The MCRD value is similar to those reported for young women but PDB is less than those reported for younger women. The mean +/- SEM value for the aromatization rate of DHEA to E1 in 6 women was 0.0058 +/- 0.004 and in 1 woman the aromatization rate of DHEA to E2 was 0.0008. About 30% of the aromatization of DHEA to E1 occurred via the blood pool of androstenedione. However, 20-25% of E1 arose via the aromatization of DHEA to E1 in peripheral tissues without the intermediacy of the blood pool of androstenedione, and thus the peripheral aromatization of DHEA can be an important source of E1 in some women.
The production and aromatization of dehydroepiandrosterone in post-menopausal women.
Longcope C, Bourget C, Flood C.
Using infusions of [3H]dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and [14C]oestrogens, the metabolic clearance rates (MCRD) and blood production rates (PDB) of DHEA and the rate of aromatization of DHEA to oestrone and oestradiol were measured in 7 normal post-menopausal women. The mean +/- SEM value for MCRD was 1850 +/- 270 l/day and for PDB was 3.2 +/- 0.6 mg/day. The MCRD value is similar to those reported for young women but PDB is less than those reported for younger women. The mean +/- SEM value for the aromatization rate of DHEA to E1 in 6 women was 0.0058 +/- 0.004 and in 1 woman the aromatization rate of DHEA to E2 was 0.0008. About 30% of the aromatization of DHEA to E1 occurred via the blood pool of androstenedione. However, 20-25% of E1 arose via the aromatization of DHEA to E1 in peripheral tissues without the intermediacy of the blood pool of androstenedione, and thus the peripheral aromatization of DHEA can be an important source of E1 in some women.
DetroitHammer
Well-known member
Your citation did not say that it only aromatizes in normal post-menopausal women. It said nothing about males or the general population. Everything he said I agree with. How do you feel that helps you make a point?
Look, this is not a court of law. I really don't give a damn if you take DHEA until your balls fall off. I'm not going to debate an issue that is accepted by everyone with any knowledge of AAS, including doctors that specialize in this. Just take what you want, I really don't care. But if you want to know, with no degree of uncertainty, take 300mgs of DHEA a day for two months. Get blood work. And when your E2 is sky high and your test is below 250, it might dawn on you that even though you're not a normal post-menopausal woman, DHEA still aromatizes in your body as well.
JohnnyBGood
Member
Your honor-I object! This is all conjecture. Just playin'
marco wolf
Member
All I'm saying is this. There are no studies, that I am aware of, that show that DHEA aromatizes at low doses in healthy young men. DHEA has been studied quite extensively, so you think you could find at least ONE study stating this, if it were true.
Ask your Dr. which study he got his info from next time you see him.