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Unanswered Daily Use Ergogenic (Opinions needed)

You peak02 livers would be better served by using some Millennium sport cordygen product. It's simply better, and yes, I've used peak02.
 
The product name is in the title of the thread, it’s easy to remember and easy to get your head around for those who don’t really
Know what it actually is.


Abbreviate it to DXT
 
Bumping this thread for attention and decision making purposes. So many people seemed upset because Ergonine has discontinued but many companies say that products like this don't sell as well as some think they do.

So I'm curious is there's lack of interest in the product itself or that people want one but just don't know what ideas to throw out for it.

I'm also curious whether people would want a 30 serving of a good product or a 20 serving of a GREAT FANTASTIC ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE product which would have the versatility of maybe extending the supply by 1 serving being 2 scoops (20 servings per container) and taking the full 2 scoop serving on workout days and 1 scoop on non-workout days?

I've had a formula in mind for this for awhile that is really based off what I would consider the ultimate daily use muscle building product for myself with everything in it I would like myself; the problem with that is that I'm a perfectionist and if that formula were to become reality, it would be too expensive if done in a 30 serving tub.
 
Rather have 20 scoops of a clinically dosed product than a 30 scoop product that is not fully dosed.
My 2 cents.

Most people (Think mass market here and average consumer who just buys a pre-workout based off taste or what a GNC employee tells them) has no clue what an ergogenic is. They also have no clue about clinically dosed ingredients or what they do. They base their decisions off cheap deals or whatever they are suckered into. A majority of the posters on here have far more knowledge than the average consumer who knows I need X amount of Betaine or Y amount of Citrulline for it to be adequate.

My 2 cents
 
sns8778 said:
the problem with that is that I'm a perfectionist and if that formula were to become reality, it would be too expensive if done in a 30 serving tub.
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Results are never too expensive, to me.

The way I see it, I’d rather spend $50 a month and get results than $20-30 for nothing.
 
20 scoops of a perfectly formulated product.

Marketing/advertising would need to be perfect to get mass market appeal
 
The Solution said:
Rather have 20 scoops of a clinically dosed product than a 30 scoop product that is not fully dosed.
My 2 cents.

Most people (Think mass market here and average consumer who just buys a pre-workout based off taste or what a GNC employee tells them) has no clue what an ergogenic is. They also have no clue about clinically dosed ingredients or what they do. They base their decisions off cheap deals or whatever they are suckered into. A majority of the posters on here have far more knowledge than the average consumer who knows I need X amount of Betaine or Y amount of Citrulline for it to be adequate.

My 2 cents
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Jeremyk1 said:
Results are never too expensive, to me.

The way I see it, I’d rather spend $50 a month and get results than $20-30 for nothing.
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Thank you both for the opinions.

Our goal is to always offer top quality products at the most cost effective prices - not the cheapest; because by cost effective we mean offering a product that gives you the absolute best results for the money spent. I look at it like this - if a product costs 40/50.00 and delivers great results and then there's one for 30 but the results are negligible or non-existent, I didn't save 10 to 20.00, I just wasted 30 to begin with. I hope that makes sense.

The challenge for us because we are so all about quality and delivering the best is finding the balance between doing so on a product like this without pricing ourselves out of the market. Because unfortunately, like you said, the average general consumer doesn't know much about effective dosages or even many branded or clinically studied ingredients. They know fancy labels and how great something tastes. And if they can get something that tastes like Kool Aid for 30 dollars, they may not spend 40.00 on something because even if its a great product, they probably won't realize it. That's where my thought of the 20 serving (2 scoop) but taking 1 scoop on non-workout days came in was so that that we could appeal to the 'it has to be a month supply' consumer. In the past, we've always been science over marketing but we do have to start thinking more marketing wise too - because ultimately if you make the greatest thing in the world but its not profitable, that doesn't allow you to stay in business and make other great and exciting products.
 
sns8778 said:
Thank you both for the opinions.


The challenge for us because we are so all about quality and delivering the best is finding the balance between doing so on a product like this without pricing ourselves out of the market. Because unfortunately, like you said, the average general consumer doesn't know much about effective dosages or even many branded or clinically studied ingredients. They know fancy labels and how great something tastes. And if they can get something that tastes like Kool Aid for 30 dollars, they may not spend 40.00 on something because even if its a great product, they probably won't realize it. That's where my thought of the 20 serving (2 scoop) but taking 1 scoop on non-workout days came in was so that that we could appeal to the 'it has to be a month supply' consumer. In the past, we've always been science over marketing but we do have to start thinking more marketing wise too - because ultimately if you make the greatest thing in the world but its not profitable, that doesn't allow you to stay in business and make other great and exciting products.
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Flavoring cost pennies
Raw Materials and Raw Actives cost money
I get it from a business perspective you could make a non-clinically dosed item and make it taste better (that is for granted)
We have seen other companies water down their formulas in favor of flavoring. I hope that will not be the case, but in order for it to sell, you may have to because let's face it. Ergogenics just don't sell. Your marketing will have to be picture perfect to make it a high priority to the mass market.
 
aaronuconn said:
20 scoops of a perfectly formulated product.

Marketing/advertising would need to be perfect to get mass market appeal
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Unfortunately marketing is usually based around key terms and hype; that's what makes it difficult. When you offer a truly comprehensively formulated product at a cost effective price, it doesn't allow for the profit margins to reinvest into the marketing. Many people criticize many of the large companies for excessive profit margins but really after you figure in their advertising budgets, their actual profits aren't as crazy as they seem; its just that they are building in a lot of room into their markup for their huge advertising budgets. For us, that's just not our style. If it were, we'd probably be a lot bigger than we are but we just can't make ourselves do that. I'm never going to be okay with formulating an inferior product but I'm also never going to be okay charging so much for one that people can't afford to use it. So it leaves us in that weird spot of being the company trying to offer the best products but also great prices; which in turn doesn't translate into enough profit margin to run the big time fancy ads.

That's why I really hope that people will take the time to really help and spread the word on the new releases; not just on the forums but in day to day life. For example, the Stress & Anxiety Support product - there's probably not a single one of us that doesn't know at least 5 people that couldn't benefit from a product like that; but without everyone's help, I doubt most will ever see it or hear about it to know how much it could truly help them.
 
The Solution said:
Flavoring cost pennies
Raw Materials and Raw Actives cost money
Don't go the cheap route. I get it from a business perspective you could make a non-clinically dosed item and make it taste better (that is for granted)
We have seen other companies water down their formulas in favor of flavoring. Please DO NOT go that route.
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No worries there, we won't.

I was just expressing that that's the challenge we are faced with is being a company that tries to deliver the absolute best but at a cost effective price and because of that, not having the marketing budget that some companies do.

In the coming days when people see the new Lean Edge formula, that's going to show a lot about the route that we are going in terms of clinically researched ingredients, dosages, and absolutely loaded formulas. There has absolutely never been (that I've seen) a stimulant free fat burner that comes anywhere even close to that amount of active ingredients in one product before - 15 active ingredients, 5 branded ingredients, fully transparent dosages. Will be doing a thread tomorrow with more info on it.
 
sns8778 said:
No worries there, we won't.

I was just expressing that that's the challenge we are faced with is being a company that tries to deliver the absolute best but at a cost effective price and because of that, not having the marketing budget that some companies do.

In the coming days when people see the new Lean Edge formula, that's going to show a lot about the route that we are going in terms of clinically researched ingredients, dosages, and absolutely loaded formulas. There has absolutely never been (that I've seen) a stimulant free fat burner that comes anywhere even close to that amount of active ingredients in one product before - 15 active ingredients, 5 branded ingredients, fully transparent dosages. Will be doing a thread tomorrow with more info on it.
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Excited to see this new Lean Edge formula. Sounds like it’s going to be a winner
 
sns8778 said:
I look at it like this - if a product costs 40/50.00 and delivers great results and then there's one for 30 but the results are negligible or non-existent, I didn't save 10 to 20.00, I just wasted 30 to begin with. I hope that makes sense.
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That’s what I was trying to say. You just said it better!

sns8778 said:
That's why I really hope that people will take the time to really help and spread the word on the new releases; not just on the forums but in day to day life. For example, the Stress & Anxiety Support product - there's probably not a single one of us that doesn't know at least 5 people that couldn't benefit from a product like that; but without everyone's help, I doubt most will ever see it or hear about it to know how much it could truly help them.
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I actually already kind of hyped the stress and anxiety product to a friend. We were texting back and forth about how stressed she is over her ex husband doing all sort of crazy crap, and I saw the thread about its release while talking to her.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
That’s what I was trying to say. You just said it better!

I actually already kind of hyped the stress and anxiety product to a friend. We were texting back and forth about how stressed she is over her ex husband doing all sort of crazy crap, and I saw the thread about its release while talking to her.
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Thanks. We appreciate that. The more people help spread the word on our products, the more products that we can offer. The Health Series is a passion of mine - I love making products that help people in ways like that and we want to be able to offer as many as possible.

Resolve10 said:
I’d prefer fully loaded 20 scooper.

I do think the 20/40 scoop/serving trend isn’t a bad way to go.
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I think that may be the happy medium for a product like this especially.
 
I think if you include creatine, MCC would be an awesome choice. Plus it provides a decent amount of magnesium which a fair amount of people are probably deficient in.

But from a cost per unit perspective, definitely understand it may not be the best choice
 
I think if you include creatine, MCC would be an awesome choice. Plus it provides a decent amount of magnesium which a fair amount of people are probably deficient in.

But from a cost per unit perspective, definitely understand it may not be the best choice
 
aaronuconn said:
I think if you include creatine, MCC would be an awesome choice. Plus it provides a decent amount of magnesium which a fair amount of people are probably deficient in.

But from a cost per unit perspective, definitely understand it may not be the best choice
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I love MCC and if we were to put Creatine in there, I think MCC would definitely be included. The issue with MCC and the required dosage being so low is that so many people in the general public want to see a 5 gram dose of Creatine; that's why I had asked for opinions on Anhydrous in case we were to use another type to add more. Due to the magnesium content of MCC, run the risk of upsetting people's stomachs if were to go too high on it.
 
Resolve10 said:
MCC at a decent dose to get some magnesium then fill in the rest with Anahydrous is a cool way to go that I think would work.
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Thank you. That's what I was thinking as well.
 
I would pay a large sum of money for a sodium bicarbonate product. It a great ergogenic but taking a clinical dose (200-500 mg/kg) is awful. If anybody can cover up that taste you have a great ergo on your hands.

I have also always been interested in sodium lacate/sodium butyrate however I have never seen them in products.
 
Long time lurker and reader of the site and rarely post. Best ergogenic combo I’ve ever taken, OG Body Octane and Clout. You literally could train forever and you can watch your lifts go up. Body Octane is still available but sharing Clout since details for it are a little more obscure:

Invalid Link Removed
 
Tommywantwingy said:
I would pay a large sum of money for a sodium bicarbonate product. It a great ergogenic but taking a clinical dose (200-500 mg/kg) is awful. If anybody can cover up that taste you have a great ergo on your hands.

I have also always been interested in sodium lacate/sodium butyrate however I have never seen them in products.
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I don't think there is a way to cover that taste up. I think that's one reason not many companies use it + it upsets a lot of people's stomachs at high dosages.
 
kwinslow said:
Long time lurker and reader of the site and rarely post. Best ergogenic combo I’ve ever taken, OG Body Octane and Clout. You literally could train forever and you can watch your lifts go up. Body Octane is still available but sharing Clout since details for it are a little more obscure:
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Thank you for the suggestion. I think that both Body Octane and Clout are/were solid products. We had been considering doing an endurance product that would be different from this. The reason is that there are some ingredients that are great for endurance that aren't as good for actual building muscle and vice versa. We make a straight IP6 powder and I think it's hugely underrated and I also think that Orotic acid is underrated as well.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Where do you get HICA?
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I wasn't sure if you were asking him for an actual source of HICA or asking why he would want HICA in there? Just curious.

I'm a fan of HICA personally so that's what was making me wonder.
 
sns8778 said:
I wasn't sure if you were asking him for an actual source of HICA or asking why he would want HICA in there? Just curious.

I'm a fan of HICA personally so that's what was making me wonder.
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I’m looking for a pure HICA source but the only one I know of is the chews that has other ingredients I don’t want. Do you know of one?
 
GreenMachineX said:
I’m looking for a pure HICA source but the only one I know of is the chews that has other ingredients I don’t want. Do you know of one?
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I do not. It's an ingredient that we've thought about offering several times, we just weren't sure if the demand was there for it.
 
sns8778 said:
I do not. It's an ingredient that we've thought about offering several times, we just weren't sure if the demand was there for it.
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The issue is the average consumer has no clue what HICA does , or its benefits.
Go into a gym and ask a normal trainee what HICA is and how it can benefit them
*Insert Deer in Headlights look*
 
kwinslow said:
Long time lurker and reader of the site and rarely post. Best ergogenic combo I’ve ever taken, OG Body Octane and Clout. You literally could train forever and you can watch your lifts go up. Body Octane is still available but sharing Clout since details for it are a little more obscure:

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

I've used more clout than anyone, I think, 20-30 tubs. The og jrod version was the absolute best performance enhancing supp ever.
 
The Solution said:
The issue is the average consumer has no clue what HICA does , or its benefits.
Go into a gym and ask a normal trainee what HICA is and how it can benefit them
*Insert Deer in Headlights look*
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I bet they will know about deer antler velvet lol
 
I don’t know of any solo hica products as well ... I would vote as well to have it in our lineup:)
 
poison said:
I've used more clout than anyone, I think, 20-30 tubs. The og jrod version was the absolute best performance enhancing supp ever.
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I could be wrong but I think Dinoiii (Dana Houser) was the formulator for these? I used to follow him and then "poof" he was gone. Stuff tasted rough but was phenomenal.
 
kwinslow said:
I could be wrong but I think Dinoiii (Dana Houser) was the formulator for these? I used to follow him and then "poof" he was gone. Stuff tasted rough but was phenomenal.
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That may be right. I thought that Joey Rod formulated them but then because Dinoiii was popular on the forums at the time kind of had him state that he did just to get a popularity boost. So long ago and probably they are the only two that know the true situation there. If I had to guess, they most likely tossed ideas back and forth and came up with it together.
 
Regarding Clout, there were things I liked about it and things I didn't from a formulation perspective.
Beta Alanine - I felt that it didn't necessarily belong but it was new and hot at the time so I see why they did it.
Tricreatine Orotate - was always curious how well this worked but never got to try it solo.
ALCAR - 1500 mg. per dose is higher than I cared for personally; I prefer 1 gram.
IP6 - very underrated ingredient
Orotic Acid - very underrated ingredient in my opinion
 
kwinslow said:
I could be wrong but I think Dinoiii (Dana Houser) was the formulator for these? I used to follow him and then "poof" he was gone. Stuff tasted rough but was phenomenal.
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I believe dana was over at LB (lean bulk) forums back In the day and was super nice to chat with

(Unless I’m thinking about a diff dinoiii but we used to bounce back ideas on that forum-rip)
 
I’m not opposed to using orotic acid or tricreatine orotate. I wouldn’t put bets alanine in it probably bc a lot of ppl don’t like it and could always buy our beta alanine 501 caps and use it separately.
 
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Resolve10 said:
Sorry I got off topic I didn’t necessarily mean beta alanine in a potential upcoming daily SNS product.

While I’d like it, it seems logistically nightmarish to me because you’d have to include full dose and it would probably be meant to be taken once daily which would not be fun for lots of people.
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The idea I have in my head for this product could be taken once daily or divided out twice daily. I do think Beta Alanine is better to not be included because it could always be added separately while including it would deter the people from buying it that don't want it.
 
sns8778 said:
The idea I have in my head for this product could be taken once daily or divided out twice daily. I do think Beta Alanine is better to not be included because it could always be added separately while including it would deter the people from buying it that don't want it.
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Beta alanine is really cheap, and as I recall best when dosed 3-4 times throughout the day. I personally think it’s pointless in the majority of formulas.
 
sns8778 said:
The idea I have in my head for this product could be taken once daily or divided out twice daily. I do think Beta Alanine is better to not be included because it could always be added separately while including it would deter the people from buying it that don't want it.
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While I love BA myself , agree and have seen people avoid the ingrident bc they can’t handle it .. so yeah understandable to leave it out makes sense
 
Yeah, I could see some people not buying it if it had beta alanine in it. I was hoping this thread would’ve gotten more attention. Not sure if it’s thay ppl don’t have more input on ingredients or if it’s that there just aren’t as many as you thought would be interested in the product.
 
I’d love BA in a split dose product, but anything with 3g+ in one dose is a no go. Absolute deal breaker for me in a pre workout
 
sns8778 said:
Yeah, I could see some people not buying it if it had beta alanine in it. I was hoping this thread would’ve gotten more attention. Not sure if it’s thay ppl don’t have more input on ingredients or if it’s that there just aren’t as many as you thought would be interested in the product.
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My input:

5g Creapure (or less for MCC)
3g Taurine
3g LCLT
2.5g Betaine
2g Peak 02
480mg Tart Cherry
400mg Lemon Verbena
 
sns8778 said:
Yeah, I could see some people not buying it if it had beta alanine in it. I was hoping this thread would’ve gotten more attention. Not sure if it’s thay ppl don’t have more input on ingredients or if it’s that there just aren’t as many as you thought would be interested in the product.
Click to expand...

My input:

5g Creapure (or less for MCC)
3g Taurine
3g LCLT
2.5g Betaine
2g Peak 02
480mg Tart Cherry
400mg Lemon Verbena
 
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