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Cycles without testosterone

Corinbeauvais said:
M14add? I have to bottles right now. Any details on what to expect and good additions? Thanks man.
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Is that the one that's supposed to convert some to dbol? I can't remember. If so I don't recall ppl saying it working similar to dbol. I don't personally think I used it, can't remember unless it was in one of those premade stacks I used back in the day.


Any1 here use this stuff?
 
Smont said:
Is that the one that's supposed to convert some to dbol? I can't remember. If so I don't recall ppl saying it working similar to dbol. I don't personally think I used it, can't remember unless it was in one of those premade stacks I used back in the day.


Any1 here use this stuff?
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I have not but I do believe it is a ph to dbol. Guy on here ran it and Tvar for like 8 weeks and had an awesome run. Tiny Tony was his username.
 
Soooo.... I was just thinking. How many of you have seen where they talk about pro cycles not being nearly as high as you would think. But then they go on to say that top pros will spend 8k-20k on a cycle. Even if you went through 3 real gh kits a month which is a shitload for 4 months, that's like 6k.

What else are they spending the other 2-12k on???

If you ran 10ml of oil per week x 16 weeks at roughly 50 per bttl that's still only $800

Now we're at $6800
 
Don't add up to me unless these guys are taking 20ml oil, a bttl of orals per week, 3 gh kits a month. Your still at the bottom end of the 8-20k
 
Smont said:
Soooo.... I was just thinking. How many of you have seen where they talk about pro cycles not being nearly as high as you would think. But then they go on to say that top pros will spend 8k-20k on a cycle. Even if you went through 3 real gh kits a month which is a shitload for 4 months, that's like 6k.

What else are they spending the other 2-12k on???

If you ran 10ml of oil per week x 16 weeks at roughly 50 per bttl that's still only $800

Now we're at $6800
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I think that's how much it costs if they are getting their GH, test, deca etc prescribed through a doctor.
 
Rebuild said:
I think that's how much it costs if they are getting their GH, test, deca etc prescribed through a doctor.
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I'm about 10,000% positive that none of those guys are paying a Dr. Top doller for gear, or getting there gear from a dr. Period. A lot of pros have there own circles of guys with a chemist making there stuff. I also Got a couple buddies that use to be big into power lifting, they were also big-time selling gear till about 10 years ago. They would get a guy who regularly spend 15-20k a month. He was turning around and selling it to a group of bodybuilders he would not name.

Street prices are already 10x the price of making it yourself. No1 who needs to be on gear to make a living is spending trt clinic prices
 
Also, if you go legit to a Endo for trt and your insurance covers it, you pay about 15 usd for 10ml of test
 
Smont said:
I'm about 10,000% positive that none of those guys are paying a Dr. Top doller for gear, or getting there gear from a dr. Period. A lot of pros have there own circles of guys with a chemist making there stuff. I also Got a couple buddies that use to be big into power lifting, they were also big-time selling gear till about 10 years ago. They would get a guy who regularly spend 15-20k a month. He was turning around and selling it to a group of bodybuilders he would not name.

Street prices are already 10x the price of making it yourself. No1 who needs to be on gear to make a living is spending trt clinic prices
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I read an interview with Ronnie Coleman, where he said the DEA was interviewing all the top pros to find out where they were getting their gear from, so he supposedly started getting everything prescribed through his doctor. Paying for pharma GH at the pharmacy is the only way I could see them spending that much.
 
Smont, I agree with you. I refer to instances when pro body builders are caught in possession, some at customs entering other countries.
Greg Doucette was one less than a decade ago, Andreas Munzer 2-3 decades ago. I think one had over 1000 grams on them, another had a smorgasbord of substances. The articles at the time itemized what they had. Those are just 2 I recall off the top of my head.
If using EPO or darbepoeitin, in addition to the GH you mentioned, those prices are high compared to AAS.
 
bigdadybry said:
Smont, I agree with you. I refer to instances when pro body builders are caught in possession, some at customs entering other countries.
Greg Doucette was one less than a decade ago, Andreas Munzer 2-3 decades ago. I think one had over 1000 grams on them, another had a smorgasbord of substances. The articles at the time itemized what they had. Those are just 2 I recall off the top of my head.
If using EPO or darbepoeitin, in addition to the GH you mentioned, those prices are high compared to AAS.
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Don't forget Victor Martinez and Valentino, both got hit for selling steroids.
 
Rebuild said:
I read an interview with Ronnie Coleman, where he said the DEA was interviewing all the top pros to find out where they were getting their gear from, so he supposedly started getting everything prescribed through his doctor. Paying for pharma GH at the pharmacy is the only way I could see them spending that much.
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Well 1, Ronnie is a cop. He's not going to admit to anything illegal. 2 there are very limited things you can get prescribed and 3 there's only Soo much a Dr can give you per month and it's not even close to enough to run a cycle, especially at bodybuilding doses.


So Ronnie is full of **** lol. But I don't blame him for not incriminating himself
 
Smont said:
Well 1, Ronnie is a cop. He's not going to admit to anything illegal. 2 there are very limited things you can get prescribed and 3 there's only Soo much a Dr can give you per month and it's not even close to enough to run a cycle, especially at bodybuilding doses.


So Ronnie is full of **** lol. But I don't blame him for not incriminating himself
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Playing devil's advocate...

A doctor needs "medical necessity" to prescribe a medicine. A lab result showing low T, low thyroid, high estrogen, etc. would be all the doc needs to prescribe a cycle, supporting non-AAS meds, and PCT.

In the absence of a central database and paying out-of-pocket, I assume a person could doctor shop and go to multiple physicians for AAS or to to multiple TRT clinics to get the quantity needed "legally". Not legal in totality, but legal in appearance at each location. Not legal if caught with multiple vials with multiple different prescribing physicians. :)
 
bigdadybry said:
Playing devil's advocate...

A doctor needs "medical necessity" to prescribe a medicine. A lab result showing low T, low thyroid, high estrogen, etc. would be all the doc needs to prescribe a cycle, supporting non-AAS meds, and PCT.

In the absence of a central database and paying out-of-pocket, I assume a person could doctor shop and go to multiple physicians for AAS or to to multiple TRT clinics to get the quantity needed "legally". Not legal in totality, but legal in appearance at each location. Not legal if caught with multiple vials with multiple different prescribing physicians. :)
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If you were only going through a Dr. For your steroid cycles and managed to somehow get multiple scripts from multiple Dr. Which I don't really see playing out, you would still be limited to test, deca, gh, anavar and some t3.

No tren, masteron, anadrol, halotestin, primobolan, winstrol, basically all the pre contest drugs would be out the picture. Now I know you can cut or bulk on anything, but I think it's safe to say that tren masteron and winny are staples in a bodybuilder contest prep.

Let's put all that aside and go back to the original question.

Can anyone see how it's possible to spend 20k on a cycle lol
 
Bodybuilding and honesty are not terms that engender one-another.

Take it all with a full tub of Morton salt 🧂
 
Nice thread, interesting read.

There is allways talk about test being used on cycles or a test base used to combat lethargy and loss of libido from natural test suppression and to have some estrogen conversion which I understand. But what do you think about my situation where I did a mild 6 week Ostarine only cylce and got bloods in the last week and had total test below reference area, E2 in normal/upper end of the reference area, shgb under the reference area and free test just inside the reference area?

How can I have low T and still normal/high E2?

Maybe the "Ostarine" was not Ostarine and aromatized.

Would an addition of test or some sort of test base made things worse estrogen wise or kept things better balanced?

Been reading alot about test on cycles and the use of test base, but don't quite understand how my bloods are the way they are. This thread seemed to be appropriate for this question, thanks.
 
KvanH said:
Nice thread, interesting read.

There is allways talk about test being used on cycles or a test base used to combat lethargy and loss of libido from natural test suppression and to have some estrogen conversion which I understand. But what do you think about my situation where I did a mild 6 week Ostarine only cylce and got bloods in the last week and had total test below reference area, E2 in normal/upper end of the reference area, shgb under the reference area and free test just inside the reference area?

How can I have low T and still normal/high E2?

Maybe the "Ostarine" was not Ostarine and aromatized.

Would an addition of test or some sort of test base made things worse estrogen wise or kept things better balanced?

Been reading alot about test on cycles and the use of test base, but don't quite understand how my bloods are the way they are. This thread seemed to be appropriate for this question, thanks.
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I don't know the reason why it happens, but I've seen multiple people say they got estrogen related problems from osta. No I do not think test would have made it worse. But i can't say for certain. I hate osta, I get no positive effects and it just seems like a waste to me.

Now testosterone is not as necessary as ppl will make it appear to be. Yes it should be in your cycles but you absolutely can run successful cycles without it. If you have estrogen the healthy range and something that converts to dht, you should have a functioning sex drive and energy without testosterone
 
Smont said:
I don't know the reason why it happens, but I've seen multiple people say they got estrogen related problems from osta. No I do not think test would have made it worse. But i can't say for certain. I hate osta, I get no positive effects and it just seems like a waste to me.

Now testosterone is not as necessary as ppl will make it appear to be. Yes it should be in your cycles but you absolutely can run successful cycles without it. If you have estrogen the healthy range and something that converts to dht, you should have a functioning sex drive and energy without testosterone
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Well the lowering of shgb and thus freeing estrogen would be one factor, right? I've also red a theory of Osta occupying the same receptors where test attaches and thus leading more test to be aromatized. But I don't have enough expertise on the matter for the validation of that theory.

What about Proviron as a "base" or a compound to counteract the negative "feels" or libido issues for some milder cycles? Too weak? Needs to have a partner (test)?

There were discussion earlier on this thread about using Anavar, EQ or even Dbol solo. Apparently EQ creates low estrogen problems for some, but it's not really drastic in that regard. Do have an educated guess if that could possibly be used as a "base" for some milder cycles where estrogen is otherwise too high in relation to suppressed test?
 
KvanH said:
Well the lowering of shgb and thus freeing estrogen would be one factor, right? I've also red a theory of Osta occupying the same receptors where test attaches and thus leading more test to be aromatized. But I don't have enough expertise on the matter for the validation of that theory.

What about Proviron as a "base" or a compound to counteract the negative "feels" or libido issues for some milder cycles? Too weak? Needs to have a partner (test)?

There were discussion earlier on this thread about using Anavar, EQ or even Dbol solo. Apparently EQ creates low estrogen problems for some, but it's not really drastic in that regard. Do have an educated guess if that could possibly be used as a "base" for some milder cycles where estrogen is otherwise too high in relation to suppressed test?
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Proviron on it's own would probably keep libido high for a while, but take osta out the picture for a min, most if not all other sarms will leave you with very little estrogen after a while, proviron being a dht would further that lowering of estrogen, so if you crashed your estrogen then your sexdrive will crash too. You could probably run anything solo for a short period of time without a problem. But eventually get a problem.

Guys use epiandro to keep libido high, but do that with another compound that does not convert to estrogen and you will probably run into problems.

Guys use 4andro as its supposed to convert to test, but it does poorly, it's most likely the estrogen conversion that keeps libido high.

If you wanna run sarms and not pin then the combo of a sarm, 4andro and epiandro would probably get everything covered. Or some dermicrine could help. Applied to the abdomen it has slightly higher estrogen conversion and applied to the testicles it converts more to dht
 
Smont said:
Proviron on it's own would probably keep libido high for a while, but take osta out the picture for a min, most if not all other sarms will leave you with very little estrogen after a while, proviron being a dht would further that lowering of estrogen, so if you crashed your estrogen then your sexdrive will crash too. You could probably run anything solo for a short period of time without a problem. But eventually get a problem.

Guys use epiandro to keep libido high, but do that with another compound that does not convert to estrogen and you will probably run into problems.

Guys use 4andro as its supposed to convert to test, but it does poorly, it's most likely the estrogen conversion that keeps libido high.

If you wanna run sarms and not pin then the combo of a sarm, 4andro and epiandro would probably get everything covered. Or some dermicrine could help. Applied to the abdomen it has slightly higher estrogen conversion and applied to the testicles it converts more to dht
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Hmm.. Good points. But never heard of applying a TD to the testes. Are you pulling my... chain.

I would love to get some Dermacrine or Icon One or 1,4-Andro product, but too afraid to make an online order atm. Much easier acces to AAS. Is there any oral AAS products that could work as a test base? Methyltestosterone? Hard on the liver?

Rad140? (Have not done research on that yet, but going to)

I'm asking in conception that this is still all relevant to the topic of the thread and not trying to derail to my own q&a.
 
KvanH said:
Hmm.. Good points. But never heard of applying a TD to the testes. Are you pulling my... chain.

I would love to get some Dermacrine or Icon One or 1,4-Andro product, but too afraid to make an online order atm. Much easier acces to AAS. Is there any oral AAS products that could work as a test base? Methyltestosterone? Hard on the liver?

Rad140? (Have not done research on that yet, but going to)

I'm asking in conception that this is still all relevant to the topic of the thread and not trying to derail to my own q&a.
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Not joking about the dermicrine on the sack lol, lots of ppl have done it.

As far as oral steroids for a test base, dbol was and still is in some places prescribed for HRT at 5-10mg a day I believe
 
KvanH said:
Hmm.. Good points. But never heard of applying a TD to the testes. Are you pulling my... chain.

I would love to get some Dermacrine or Icon One or 1,4-Andro product, but too afraid to make an online order atm. Much easier acces to AAS. Is there any oral AAS products that could work as a test base? Methyltestosterone? Hard on the liver?

Rad140? (Have not done research on that yet, but going to)

I'm asking in conception that this is still all relevant to the topic of the thread and not trying to derail to my own q&a.
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Assuming you do not want to inject? And also that you haven’t cycled?

Proviron & Dbol, maybe even with 15mg Rad also if you wanted to get fancy, could be a great 6-8 week cycle, aside from the negative lipid panel you will see with any oral usage.
 
Smont said:
Not joking about the dermicrine on the sack lol, lots of ppl have done it.

As far as oral steroids for a test base, dbol was and still is in some places prescribed for HRT at 5-10mg a day I believe
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the sack is the best place for absorption apparently (aside from the rectum).....
 
Hyde said:
Assuming you do not want to inject? And also that you haven’t cycled?

Proviron & Dbol, maybe even with 15mg Rad also if you wanted to get fancy, could be a great 6-8 week cycle, aside from the negative lipid panel you will see with any oral usage.
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Those 3 together actually sounds really good. Especially from a feel good aspect. Rad and dbol both make me feel on top of the world, Proviron makes 99% of ppl horny, the dbol is going to build the muscle. Never considered those 3 together but that might deserve a award for potentially being the best no inject cycle.
 
Hyde said:
Assuming you do not want to inject? And also that you haven’t cycled?

Proviron & Dbol, maybe even with 15mg Rad also if you wanted to get fancy, could be a great 6-8 week cycle, aside from the negative lipid panel you will see with any oral usage.
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You assumed right and I have only ran few Osta only cycles. The first one was great, but most likely due to it being my first one being "enhanced". The cycles after the first have been less and less rewarding and the last one was complete garbade when considering the blood test results it left me. Now that I have dwelved in to information on ped use again it seems obvious that Osta was a bad choice, but when I was reading about it 3 years ago it seemed to be a good choice among the most safe and easy to recover ped's.

Proviron & Dbol seems like a good fit from what I know so far, will educate myself more on the Dbol and Rad. Thinking of saving the Rad addition for second time around, but like said will do more research.

Have to look into the lipid levels aspect aswell. Was more concerned about liver values. I have been lifting for 12 years and done all sorts of sports my whole life btw.
 
KvanH said:
You assumed right and I have only ran few Osta only cycles. The first one was great, but most likely due to it being my first one being "enhanced". The cycles after the first have been less and less rewarding and the last one was complete garbade when considering the blood test results it left me. Now that I have dwelved in to information on ped use again it seems obvious that Osta was a bad choice, but when I was reading about it 3 years ago it seemed to be a good choice among the most safe and easy to recover ped's.

Proviron & Dbol seems like a good fit from what I know so far, will educate myself more on the Dbol and Rad. Thinking of saving the Rad addition for second time around, but like said will do more research.

Have to look into the lipid levels aspect aswell. Was more concerned about liver values. I have been lifting for 12 years and done all sorts of sports my whole life btw.
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Let me save you a little trouble, if you don't have preexisting conditions with your liver, toxicity or orals is not a major concern. If it goes out of wack on cycle, it quickly returns to normal post cycle. The liver is the most resilient organ in the body, it can take a lot of damage without causing permanent damage. Heart health or cardiovascular health I should say is a much larger concern. I always reference the same thing when I talk about the liver and that is that dr.s prescribe anadrol to children and adults for up to 300mg for up to 6 months at a time. There livers don't fall out.
 
Smont said:
Let me save you a little trouble, if you don't have preexisting conditions with your liver, toxicity or orals is not a major concern. If it goes out of wack on cycle, it quickly returns to normal post cycle. The liver is the most resilient organ in the body, it can take a lot of damage without causing permanent damage. Heart health or cardiovascular health I should say is a much larger concern. I always reference the same thing when I talk about the liver and that is that dr.s prescribe anadrol to children and adults for up to 300mg for up to 6 months at a time. There livers don't fall out.
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Adreed on the livers resiliency as seen how much people can abuse their liver with drugs and alcohol etc. Just difficult to comprehend the risks on a practical level when reading about methylated products and hepatoxicity, but that is a good reference.

Are there some markers or things to check other than bp with the heart and cardiovascular issues? I have a bp meter home and my bp has allways been ok (liver values aswell when checked).

Thanks for all the valuable info. Seems like I should've started my own thread, but I did start on the topic at least, lol.
 
KvanH said:
Adreed on the livers resiliency as seen how much people can abuse their liver with drugs and alcohol etc. Just difficult to comprehend the risks on a practical level when reading about methylated products and hepatoxicity, but that is a good reference.

Are there some markers or things to check other than bp with the heart and cardiovascular issues? I have a bp meter home and my bp has allways been ok (liver values aswell when checked).

Thanks for all the valuable info. Seems like I should've started my own thread, but I did start on the topic at least, lol.
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Actually reading about this and the lipid profiles on another thread and around the web. Thanks, I think I'm all set and have enough things to investige for now (y)
 
KvanH said:
Actually reading about this and the lipid profiles on another thread and around the web. Thanks, I think I'm all set and have enough things to investige for now (y)
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Something very valuable that most ppl don't get, myself included, as I've only done it 1 time but echocardiogram for your heart
 
Hyde said:
Assuming you do not want to inject? And also that you haven’t cycled?

Proviron & Dbol, maybe even with 15mg Rad also if you wanted to get fancy, could be a great 6-8 week cycle, aside from the negative lipid panel you will see with any oral usage.
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Maybe I will do this for my next bulk, but slightly beefed up,
25mg dbol
25mg rad
50mg proviron
400npp
 
Smont said:
Maybe I will do this for my next bulk, but slightly beefed up,
25mg dbol
25mg rad
50mg proviron
400npp
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I'd rather use eq at 600 but I can't see going 16 weeks on 25mg dbol lol.

With npp and the other stuff a quick 8 week winter bulk might be a fun no test experiment
 
KvanH said:
You assumed right and I have only ran few Osta only cycles. The first one was great, but most likely due to it being my first one being "enhanced". The cycles after the first have been less and less rewarding and the last one was complete garbade when considering the blood test results it left me. Now that I have dwelved in to information on ped use again it seems obvious that Osta was a bad choice, but when I was reading about it 3 years ago it seemed to be a good choice among the most safe and easy to recover ped's.

Proviron & Dbol seems like a good fit from what I know so far, will educate myself more on the Dbol and Rad. Thinking of saving the Rad addition for second time around, but like said will do more research.

Have to look into the lipid levels aspect aswell. Was more concerned about liver values. I have been lifting for 12 years and done all sorts of sports my whole life btw.
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Yes for your experience level Proviron and Dbol would be perfect. The Rad could be added to a future run just to add a little extra anabolic pop, hardening, libido, strength, prostate protection and estrogen receptor antagonism (gyno-prevention). It’s cheaper than increasing Proviron dose if more libido & gyno-control is desired, and drier/less sides than upping the Dbol after a point.

You really never need more than 15mg RAD to get optimal results vs sides (*based on studies on chimps and applying that to human bodyweight). It’s more of an add-in.
 
KvanH said:
You assumed right and I have only ran few Osta only cycles. The first one was great, but most likely due to it being my first one being "enhanced". The cycles after the first have been less and less rewarding and the last one was complete garbade when considering the blood test results it left me. Now that I have dwelved in to information on ped use again it seems obvious that Osta was a bad choice, but when I was reading about it 3 years ago it seemed to be a good choice among the most safe and easy to recover ped's.

Proviron & Dbol seems like a good fit from what I know so far, will educate myself more on the Dbol and Rad. Thinking of saving the Rad addition for second time around, but like said will do more research.

Have to look into the lipid levels aspect aswell. Was more concerned about liver values. I have been lifting for 12 years and done all sorts of sports my whole life btw.
Click to expand...

Yes for your experience level Proviron and Dbol would be perfect. The Rad could be added to a future run just to add a little extra anabolic pop, hardening, libido, strength, prostate protection and estrogen receptor antagonism (gyno-prevention). It’s cheaper than increasing Proviron dose if more libido & gyno-control is desired, and drier/less sides than upping the Dbol after a point.

You really never need more than 15mg RAD to get optimal results vs sides (*based on studies on chimps and applying that to human bodyweight). It’s more of an add-in.
 
Smont said:
Is the Roman helmet similar to the Arabian goggles??? If so then yes
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Sorta. The Roman helmet has the nose protection provision whereas the Arabian goggles ignore the nose in favor of greater eye saturation. I would assume given the surface area, the absorption rates would be similar.
 
Ok so I got a no test cycle question. A friend/acquaintance of mine told me today he just started winny and t3. First cycle and He won't pin. I got to thinking, I got a half bottle of Td 7 alpha ace trest that I will never use. I don't wanna tell anyone to take trest on a first cycle but.... I'm thinking a tiny amount, like 5-10mg per day could probably help a lot without any negative sides. What you guys think. I figure someone mine as well use it up
 
Smont said:
Ok so I got a no test cycle question. A friend/acquaintance of mine told me today he just started winny and t3. First cycle and He won't pin. I got to thinking, I got a half bottle of Td 7 alpha ace trest that I will never use. I don't wanna tell anyone to take trest on a first cycle but.... I'm thinking a tiny amount, like 5-10mg per day could probably help a lot without any negative sides. What you guys think. I figure someone mine as well use it up
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Yeah, a little bit would help.
The only reason that I don't recommend that more is because normally guys just won't do it. Once they get it in their hot little hands, all good intentions go out the window, and it's, "Open the Floodgates!!"

LOL
 
Renew1 said:
Yeah, a little bit would help.
The only reason that I don't recommend that more is because normally guys just won't do it. Once they get it in their hot little hands, all good intentions go out the window, and it's, "Open the Floodgates!!"

LOL
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Yep. It’s game over as soon as he gets it lol
 
So according to the plates more dated guy last video. Not only does eq not aromatize at half the rate of test, its actually anti estrogenic when in combination with test. News to me. Anyone seen this video yet?
 
Hyde said:
I have not but I do believe it is a ph to dbol. Guy on here ran it and Tvar for like 8 weeks and had an awesome run. Tiny Tony was his username.
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Doesn’t M14ADD aromatize? If that is the case, Would it be a good idea to run an AI with it or just have one on hand?
 
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