Cycle / TRT - that is the question (and everything in-between)
- Thread starter Jbone123
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Jbone123
New member
Smont, thanks mate - say it how it is. Respect.
I look forward to reading the paper you refer to once written, and will likely endorse it.
So tomorrow is potentially my final pin of the 420 mg pw ‘blast’ - which marks the end of the 14 week blast period.
I have decided I’m not going to PCT, as I’m going to make a lifelong commitment to cruising and blasting.
I know I said no more questions, but here are several more -
1) after my final blast pin tomorrow, do you recommend that I have a pause from injecting test for approx. 2 weeks to allow test to return to within normal range levels, as Hyde previously suggested?
2) if yes to question 1, shall I use the 10,000 iu of HCG during this 2 week period and an AI, as and when needed? Then I proceed with pinning test at cruise dosages.
3) if yes to question 1, do you recommend I take the HGH alongside the HCG during the 2 week pause, or shall I wait until I resume pinning test at cruise dosages?
4) if no to question 1, what do you recommend as an alternative?
5) do you recommend that I endeavour to get my HGH / IGF-1 levels tested prior to starting HGH? I receive my HGH on Monday.
6) I understand that if I go on holiday for say 2 weeks during my cruise, I’m not going to take my HGH, test and needles/syringes with me. Instead, I’m going to have a ‘pause’ - in such situations, would you suggest pinning more test than usual just before the holiday to avoid falling off a cliff? Likewise, what are the implications of pausing from HGH during that holiday period of circa 2 weeks, if any?
7) Is HGH best used indefinitely, or cycled?
8) do you recommend using HCG alongside test during a cruise? If so, how much pw?
9) as I’ve said, I should get some more blood work done soon. I got bloods administered pre-blast and at the 4 week and 8 week mark of the blast. As you know, I’m at the end of my 14 week blast as of tomorrow - when would you recommend I next get bloods taken?
10) how often do you recommend getting bloods taken during cruise periods - let’s say a cruise lasts 6-months, how often would you recommend getting bloods administered during this period? If using HGH routinely too, should IGF-1 / HGH levels be monitored too? If so, how often?
11) will daily 2-3 iu use of HGH likely take GH levels to high normal range levels, or will this likely exceed that range? If the latter, does this come with substantial risk? I’ve read all sorts from enlargement of organs to cancer.
Sorry, but these are all questions I’ve got to ask and based on your apparent anecdotal wisdom and willingness to engage, I suspect you’ll be answer a great deal of these questions based on your own experience and best practice, per say.
Appreciate there’s a lot of information out there that would probs address a lot of my questions - but a lot of it differs and so educating oneself from ppl like the Anabolic Doc on YouTube, or research papers can often raise more questions than answers.
I’m just looking for your POV on the above, that’s all - please.
I look forward to reading the paper you refer to once written, and will likely endorse it.
So tomorrow is potentially my final pin of the 420 mg pw ‘blast’ - which marks the end of the 14 week blast period.
I have decided I’m not going to PCT, as I’m going to make a lifelong commitment to cruising and blasting.
I know I said no more questions, but here are several more -
1) after my final blast pin tomorrow, do you recommend that I have a pause from injecting test for approx. 2 weeks to allow test to return to within normal range levels, as Hyde previously suggested?
2) if yes to question 1, shall I use the 10,000 iu of HCG during this 2 week period and an AI, as and when needed? Then I proceed with pinning test at cruise dosages.
3) if yes to question 1, do you recommend I take the HGH alongside the HCG during the 2 week pause, or shall I wait until I resume pinning test at cruise dosages?
4) if no to question 1, what do you recommend as an alternative?
5) do you recommend that I endeavour to get my HGH / IGF-1 levels tested prior to starting HGH? I receive my HGH on Monday.
6) I understand that if I go on holiday for say 2 weeks during my cruise, I’m not going to take my HGH, test and needles/syringes with me. Instead, I’m going to have a ‘pause’ - in such situations, would you suggest pinning more test than usual just before the holiday to avoid falling off a cliff? Likewise, what are the implications of pausing from HGH during that holiday period of circa 2 weeks, if any?
7) Is HGH best used indefinitely, or cycled?
8) do you recommend using HCG alongside test during a cruise? If so, how much pw?
9) as I’ve said, I should get some more blood work done soon. I got bloods administered pre-blast and at the 4 week and 8 week mark of the blast. As you know, I’m at the end of my 14 week blast as of tomorrow - when would you recommend I next get bloods taken?
10) how often do you recommend getting bloods taken during cruise periods - let’s say a cruise lasts 6-months, how often would you recommend getting bloods administered during this period? If using HGH routinely too, should IGF-1 / HGH levels be monitored too? If so, how often?
11) will daily 2-3 iu use of HGH likely take GH levels to high normal range levels, or will this likely exceed that range? If the latter, does this come with substantial risk? I’ve read all sorts from enlargement of organs to cancer.
Sorry, but these are all questions I’ve got to ask and based on your apparent anecdotal wisdom and willingness to engage, I suspect you’ll be answer a great deal of these questions based on your own experience and best practice, per say.
Appreciate there’s a lot of information out there that would probs address a lot of my questions - but a lot of it differs and so educating oneself from ppl like the Anabolic Doc on YouTube, or research papers can often raise more questions than answers.
I’m just looking for your POV on the above, that’s all - please.
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Smont
Legend
I agree with Hyde that you probably shouldn't just dove in head first like this, run a cycle or 2 with PCT. You will learn a good bit from the process and there's and commitment to TRT is almost always a life long commitment. I will still get around to answering some of those questions but there's a lot to unpack so I'm gonna need some free time to go through it. Il try to get back to it later tonight
Jbone123
New member
thanks both.
Also, @Smont - I’ve deleted some of the questions originally presented to you as I was up late last night watching Dave Palumbo, Andrew Hieberman, Anabolic Doc, vigorous Steve, Derek from MPMD, etc … and I did a lot of reading, so I think I’ve answered a lot of my own questions, but still curious to know your thoughts on the redacted questions I’ve asked.
Also, just to remind you - I have taken RAD-140 (6 weeks, 10mg) previously with clomid PCT 50/50/25/25, and Ostarine previously (8 weeks, 15-20mg) with Enclo PCT 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5. I’ve also dabbled with Cardarine and SR9009.
In addition to the above, I had circa 3-4 years natural weightlifting - does this not make me a viable candidate for TRT at 34? I just want to be at the top of the normal range consistently (as opposed to 490 - 500 ng/dl, sometimes lower), and throw some blast periods in there too - most likely primo, Anavar and test would be my next blast.
Think I was a bit impulsive with the HGH so may try and flog it - routine use of it just seems too dangerous in comparison with TRT. I have no anecdotal evidence to support this, which is why I come to these forums.
Thanks
Also, @Smont - I’ve deleted some of the questions originally presented to you as I was up late last night watching Dave Palumbo, Andrew Hieberman, Anabolic Doc, vigorous Steve, Derek from MPMD, etc … and I did a lot of reading, so I think I’ve answered a lot of my own questions, but still curious to know your thoughts on the redacted questions I’ve asked.
Also, just to remind you - I have taken RAD-140 (6 weeks, 10mg) previously with clomid PCT 50/50/25/25, and Ostarine previously (8 weeks, 15-20mg) with Enclo PCT 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5. I’ve also dabbled with Cardarine and SR9009.
In addition to the above, I had circa 3-4 years natural weightlifting - does this not make me a viable candidate for TRT at 34? I just want to be at the top of the normal range consistently (as opposed to 490 - 500 ng/dl, sometimes lower), and throw some blast periods in there too - most likely primo, Anavar and test would be my next blast.
Think I was a bit impulsive with the HGH so may try and flog it - routine use of it just seems too dangerous in comparison with TRT. I have no anecdotal evidence to support this, which is why I come to these forums.
Thanks
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Smont
Legend
Nothing wrong with the HGH and there's nothing dangerous about HGH in reasonable doses.
Slow down..........
You need to understand something because you're going to read and do research and you're going to watch these YouTube videos and I've done all the same things and you're not going to get an understanding from watching a couple videos or reading a couple things. I've literally spent years, like 15+ years researching and I still don't understand many things. There are no black and white answers to many of these questions because things change depending on the person, the situation, your age, your previous use history, all kinds of stuff. Take everything you learn as a piece of information and not a fact. Once you've gathered pieces of information from many people or outlets that all seem to agree, and then you double down and research to back up the bro science, at this point you got to start to form your own opinions of how to do things.
I can tell you that one of the most valuable things I did early on was keep a notebook, track my cycles, side effects, results, blood work results, recovery times ect. Doing all that stuff early on will help you make your decisions down the road
PolishHamm3r77
Well-known member
Dr Todd Lee has some interesting YouTube content as well. Modest dose theories involving 20mg of test daily and 2iu’s of hgh daily.
I’d still PCT then check bloods and proceed accordingly w caution from there.
I’d still PCT then check bloods and proceed accordingly w caution from there.
Jbone123
New member
Thanks - will check out Dr Todd Lee.
Everyone seems to be advising PCT, which is fair enough, as I come here for advice, receipt of opinion and debate.
I’m current running 1000 iu of HCG ED, Monday - Friday for 2 weeks. That’s 5000 iu pw, 10,000 iu across the 2 weeks.
I must then decide whether or not to cruise, or indeed PCT.
Will most likely use Nolva 20mg ED for 4-6 weeks, and I’d be inclined to take it just before bed. I hope I tolerate it better than Clomid, as that **** made me feel like **** and overly emotional, making it very difficult to perform my job.
If I PCT, not sure the HGH has much purpose until my next cycle, dependant on exp. date.
Everyone seems to be advising PCT, which is fair enough, as I come here for advice, receipt of opinion and debate.
I’m current running 1000 iu of HCG ED, Monday - Friday for 2 weeks. That’s 5000 iu pw, 10,000 iu across the 2 weeks.
I must then decide whether or not to cruise, or indeed PCT.
Will most likely use Nolva 20mg ED for 4-6 weeks, and I’d be inclined to take it just before bed. I hope I tolerate it better than Clomid, as that **** made me feel like **** and overly emotional, making it very difficult to perform my job.
If I PCT, not sure the HGH has much purpose until my next cycle, dependant on exp. date.
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Hyde
Legend
This would be for someone who wasn’t a bodybuilder and on a cruise, more like a regular TRT patient looking for optimal wellbeing.
His favored approach for bodybuilding is to run testosterone as high as you can tolerate without needing an AI, then add some Masteron. As you titrate your Masteron dose up & re-draw monthly bloodwork to monitor, you increase testosterone as tolerance allows (because Mast acts somewhat like a SERM, reducing sides while allowing more testosterone to further raise estradiol). This provided your IGF1 levels keep going up at a fixed GH dose. Once you see estrogen raising but IGF1 no longer improving, you can peel back the test slightly - tests primary role in his opinion is to deliver e2 so your HGH can optimally convert to IGF1. Then you add any remaining milligrams as you need with more Masteron. Maybe a little Var pre-training as lipids allow.
So Testosterone to tolerance, Mast for the remaining necessary mg, and as much HGH as you can afford/tolerate/safely endure. And get e2 optimized for max conversion to IGF1.
PolishHamm3r77
Well-known member
You should change your name to Cliff cause those notes would have saved me an hour plus of watching that video.
I’m 40 min into his vid w Broderick Chavez. Some good stuff in that video too
I still have to finish the one w DJ Madson but overall good material on his channel
Smont
Legend
I've never used that much HCG before, I don't know anyone who uses that much. I always have ppl do 250-500 eod. I don't know if there's negative consequences to using as much as you're using. But I do think it can cause some issues
Smont
Legend
I been watching him a lot lately. I definitely like a lot of his stuff, probably 90% of his stuff has me going down the rabbit hole researching and learning new stuff so he's like the hot topic for me right now
Hyde
Legend
His ideas largely come from Chavez’s thoughts & Jon Jewitt’s, who improved Black’s model to something more practical for real bodybuilders.
Chavez is much more open-ended/needs-based, because he works with lots of types of athletes, but the way Dr. Todd does it makes sense for his ownneeds as a Masters Pro bodybuilder.
I have; that’s the amount you use to prime for PCT if you’re coming off while esters clear. Assuming you didn’t run it while on. The gist is 10,000iu spread out over 2-3 weeks.
You definitely see a lot of estrogen conversion. Which is intratesticular so an AI can’t stop it, BUT you can still add Exemestane to prevent any aromatization from the testosterone that’s still clearing, and this also helps the prep for PCT. Estrogen is suppressive so keeping it reigned in while in the clearing/HCG phase for a few weeks helps promote a faster restart.
You could certainly use less; I did most of my PCTs without HCG at all because my cycles were always faster drugs and usually drier for many years. Or I took 500/wk on cycle from the start nearly to prevent atrophy in the first place. But for a traditional injectable cycle, it can restore testicular atrophy.
He certainly can make a good logical argument for whatever he does.
Best trick I got from him was switching my chicken breast to tenderloins. Then you never have to weigh to get fairly close portions because they’re always similar size. 3 tenders is always clocking in around 55g protein. You just know you need to eat X tenders per day to hit Y needs. They also need no trimming before baking so they save a lot of time; toss them in the pan with some spices for 17 min @ 400*.
Jbone123
New member
Tomorrow is day 4 of HCG and today is the first test shot I’ve missed since being on this mild 14 week blast.
Assuming I don’t hop on TRT and PCT, when will I likely start to feel shitty? I appreciate everyone is different and there’s a lot to take into consideration like baseline T levels, age, compounds used and length of cycle, etc.
I’ve divulged all of that, but here it is again.
495 ng/dl pre cycle bloods (total T).
200 mg test c 4 weeks, 300mg test c 2 weeks, 420 mg test c 8 weeks - 14 weeks total.
Assuming I don’t hop on TRT and PCT, when will I likely start to feel shitty? I appreciate everyone is different and there’s a lot to take into consideration like baseline T levels, age, compounds used and length of cycle, etc.
I’ve divulged all of that, but here it is again.
495 ng/dl pre cycle bloods (total T).
200 mg test c 4 weeks, 300mg test c 2 weeks, 420 mg test c 8 weeks - 14 weeks total.
PolishHamm3r77
Well-known member
Test should take about 2 wks to clear your system
Jbone123
New member
Hmm … I suspected it would be at that 2 week mark. Is 20mg Nolva ED generally enough as a PCT based on the length of cycle, dosage of compound, etc.
Will the 10,000 iu of HCG these next 2 weeks likely put me in better stead for PCT?
Granted everyone is different, but I’m hoping as a 34 yo male with mid-normal baseline T levels, I should be ok with this PCT.
However, I am inclined to go back on test but at 125/50 every 7-8 days as a TRT protocol with 2 iu of HGH ED.
I can’t be arsed with going back to mediocrity and most ppl who end up on TRT seem to say their only regret was not starting it sooner.
Will the 10,000 iu of HCG these next 2 weeks likely put me in better stead for PCT?
Granted everyone is different, but I’m hoping as a 34 yo male with mid-normal baseline T levels, I should be ok with this PCT.
However, I am inclined to go back on test but at 125/50 every 7-8 days as a TRT protocol with 2 iu of HGH ED.
I can’t be arsed with going back to mediocrity and most ppl who end up on TRT seem to say their only regret was not starting it sooner.
Hyde
Legend
You suspected that because you have never done it, and so your rationale is that things would feel bad as soon as your testosterone is bottoming out. But it takes a minute for that to really start to impact gym performance. And once you really start to go backwards in training, that’s when it will really sink in that you’re no longer Superman. I have hit lifetime PRs 2 weeks off gear. The muscle is still there and there’s no health burden dragging on you. But about 3-4 weeks, the estrogen has rebounded into a dominant state and the muscles dependent on that elevated androgen load have been starved long enough, and all the extra glycogen is gone. You just start shrinking some & have lost the mojo.
I like 40mg Nolva for PCT from a proper length injectable cycle like this. The point of taking it is to get whatever advantage possible from the SERM in restarting sooner, so it doesn’t make sense to cheap out. Then I taper to 20mg for 2 more weeks after a month on 40.
Why would anyone suggest HCG to you these weeks if it didn’t help? You think we just love more injections? C’mon man; it will prime your testes for work.
You can do whatever you want. You know this, and you don’t owe it to anyone to convince otherwise. Just be sure you can see yourself injecting weekly and getting bloodwork 2-4x/year forever, eventually getting a script, managing blood thickness, etc. We’re talking about permanent health decisions that you have to make inevitably without understanding everything this could mean or how it could effect you in other unforeseen ways.
Smont
Legend
It's about 4-5 weeks, 7-8 day half life, 5x the half life to clear. 35-40 days. So sometime around week 3 id expect test to be lower then trt levels and by week 4-5 it should bottom out.
Hyde
Legend
To be very accurate, and explain some of the discrepancies in what people advise (because I know YOU know this), it depends on what ester you took, how much of it you had built up in you, and your individual drug metabolism.
Even the carrier oil thickness, muscles you inject into, size of the depots, and frequency of injection will affect speed of clearance.
So if you pin 1 gram of test undecanoate brewed in castor oil in one huge 5cc syringe once per week in your glute or ventroglute for a couple months, it’s going to take way longer to clear than if you’re taking daily shots of test enanthate brewed in MCT oil via slinpin at 500/wk using shallow IM in muscles with higher bloodflow like delts, pecs, quads. Then add in the fact that you & I may metabolize the drug particularly fast or slow, and you can see how the bloodwork will differ.
3 weeks is usually about the time to start doing something, whether that’s cruise or SERM. Certainly after 4 weeks you can make a solid case.
Smont
Legend
No definitely, there's a ton of variables. Do you see a lot of grapeseed or other carriers any more? I honestly think I've only had gear brewed in mct for probably the past 3-4 years
Hyde
Legend
I wouldn’t say I really have an accurate pulse on the market at all, but most of what I’ve used overall is MCT oil. What I’m using now is something else, but not sure what it is, other than it’s definitely thicker than MCT. I seem to tolerate it alright, but I prefer MCT because it’s so fast/smooth & antimicrobial naturally.
Jbone123
New member
Well tomorrow is the start of my second week of HCG (a further 5000 iu) and today is a full week without test (pinning twice per week).
Thanks Hyde for the explanation above on ‘be sure before committing’ to TRT / cruising and blasting. I was unaware of blood thickness, and I’m sure there are other factors / key considerations aside from the the obvious that I am unaware of too.
Thanks Hyde for the explanation above on ‘be sure before committing’ to TRT / cruising and blasting. I was unaware of blood thickness, and I’m sure there are other factors / key considerations aside from the the obvious that I am unaware of too.
Hyde
Legend
You can never know what you don’t know, but it’s important to remember that’s usually the case for everything!
I’d just use it and not stress; even if degraded it would still likely have some effect. This step isn’t critical, HCG use, just helpful. The fact you have already used a bottle is great.
But don’t intentionally leave it out, if that’s what you’re asking.
Jbone123
New member
Thanks - reason I asked about HCG is because I reconstituted the second vial of 5000 iu today and SQ pinned 1000 iu, as per plan. I’m currently at my parents house and will need to take it to my own house with me tomorrow - which will mean it’s out of the fridge for 45 mins - 1 hour. I’ll put the air-con on in the car on route and will make sure it’s sturdy.
Other q - shall I use HGH now, or when I start cruise? Would it be recommendable to get GH levels tested prior to starting HGH? Common sense tells me it would.
Other q - shall I use HGH now, or when I start cruise? Would it be recommendable to get GH levels tested prior to starting HGH? Common sense tells me it would.
Hyde
Legend
If you can, borrow an icepack. Take some food or drink to be less conspicuous. Or you could get a cup with ice at a gas station when you leave if you’re paranoid. Or say screw it lol.
HGH use is totally up to you. Blood levels are irrelevant; you don’t stop producing your own except for the days you take it exogenously. There’s no longterm suppression to worry about.
Jbone123
New member
Thanks - in terms of timing, would it make sense for me to start taking it next week when I resume test injections, or is it equally efficacious to be taking it during this 2 week cooling off window consisting of HCG and AI’s?
OR, does it not make an ounce of difference either way - I’m just asking, as I’ve read HGH without AAS is practically useless and right now I’m not pinning test for this brief period.
OR, does it not make an ounce of difference either way - I’m just asking, as I’ve read HGH without AAS is practically useless and right now I’m not pinning test for this brief period.
Hyde
Legend
Why are you using HCG right now if you’re going to cruise on testosterone? What testicular function do you think you’re going to need if you’re keeping yourself totally suppressed?
Jbone123
New member
My plan is to cruise / TRT with HCG indefinitely.
As I have come off of a mild blast involving test only, I stopped taking test for 2 weeks to let my super-physiological test levels reduce / normalise (as i understood this is what you suggested) and started HCG for 2 weeks at high levels to get the Bombay potatoes working again.
I then plan to blast again at a time to be confirmed and follow the same protocol leading into a cruise, I.e. pause for 2 weeks with high level HCG use and/or I may take HCG during the next blast.
My question regarded HGH - should I use now, or when I recommence test at cruise levels?
I’ve if misunderstood you, or my thinking does not make sense - pls let me know.
As I have come off of a mild blast involving test only, I stopped taking test for 2 weeks to let my super-physiological test levels reduce / normalise (as i understood this is what you suggested) and started HCG for 2 weeks at high levels to get the Bombay potatoes working again.
I then plan to blast again at a time to be confirmed and follow the same protocol leading into a cruise, I.e. pause for 2 weeks with high level HCG use and/or I may take HCG during the next blast.
My question regarded HGH - should I use now, or when I recommence test at cruise levels?
I’ve if misunderstood you, or my thinking does not make sense - pls let me know.
Hyde
Legend
Well, I probably wouldn’t blast HCG again, so much as just take 500/wk or something most of the time as part of your protocol.
Whether you start HGH now, or with the cruise test, or wait until your next blast is entirely up to you. You will not realize the same amount of hypertrophy potential from it now as when blasting, but 2iu is small potatoes anyway from a hypertrophy perspective. That dose tends to be for the cosmetic/fullness benefits, orthopedic/joint comfort, and staying a bit leaner on a bit more calories or cutting easier. So it’s entirely up to you.
Hyde
Legend
That would entirely depend upon why you would be taking HGH. Choose your PED tools & how to deploy them based on individual needs.
I can tell you haven’t learned nearly enough about the drugs you’re taking to understand the WHYS of what you’re doing, only that Test & GH = GOOD so you are pulling the trigger. You made it sound like you bought enough to just take 2iu daily for a long time, and there’s not necessarily anything wrong with that if blood sugars stay decent. But it’s also not exactly targeted.
If you have an enough to just stay on it, I’d take 2iu most nights and occasionally on blast work it up to 3-5iu depending entirely on personal response and finances.
If you don’t, save it for your next blast and introduce 2iu when you bump test back up.
Hyde
Legend
It should have been fine…you’re still clearing testosterone from your system, and you have been making more peaks of it along the way with the HCG use to keep test and estro up.
It’s the next few weeks that can be rough if you do PCT & restart natural production.