Cycle / TRT - that is the question (and everything in-between)

[Jbone123]

Strange blood work, please help.

33 yo male.

Pre PED’s -

Total T - 17.1 nmol/l
Free T - 0.329 nmol/l
Oestradiol - 152 pmol/l
LH - 8.1 U/I
FSH - 1.29 U/I
Prolactin - 565 mlU/l
Cholesterol - 1.47 nmol/l

4 weeks into 200mg test c pw + 500 HCG pw -

Total T - 11.8 nmol/l
Free T - 0.228 nmol/l
Oestradiol - 92.1 pmol/l
LH - 3.2 U/I
FSH - 0.73 U/I
Prolactin - 237 mlU/l
Cholesterol - 1 nmol/l

 

[Jbone123]

So,

I took blood work on 6th Jan (Monday), started cycle on 8th Jan (Weds). These were the ‘pre cycle bloods’.

Then I had another set of bloods administered on 5th Feb - 1 month circa into cycle.

Other readings from Jan bloods are below -

Basophils - 0.0410\S\9/L
Eosinophils - 0.0810\S\9/L
HbA1c - 36.33mmol/mol
Haematocrit - 47.93%
Haemoglobin - 159g/l
MCHC - 315 g/l
Mean cell volume - 101.4 fl
Red blood cells - 4.9710\S\12/L
White blood cells - 4.5610\S\9/L
Free T3 - 5.21pmol/l
Free T4 - 19 pmol/l
Prolactin - 565mIU/l
Thyroid function - 1.05mIU/l
SHBG - 36.7nmol/l

Same bloods, but from Feb -

Basophils - 0.0510\S\9/L
Eosinophils - 0.0610\S\9/L
HbA1c - 32.79mmol/mol
Haematocrit - 46.789%
Haemoglobin - 161g/l
MCHC - 327g/l
Mean cell volume - 99fl
Red blood cells - 4.9710\S\12/L
White blood cells - 5.1710\S\9/L
Free T3 - 5.09pmol/l
Free T4 - 19.6pmol/l
Prolactin - 237mIU/l
Thyroid function - 1.82mIU/l
SHBG - 32.9nmol/l

Hope this helps? Let me know if you want any other markers as I may have them.

The test c I got was from a well known local dealer who serves up to a recently awarded IFBB pro, but that doesn’t mean it is legitimate. The gear is ‘sun pharma’ and it hasn’t passed the exp. date.

HCG was off the same guy and was pregnyl - 5000 iu.

The Feb test was taken on Weds and I pinned 100mg on the Sunday before.

I’ve felt alright, nips a bit spicy and took Nolva 10mg ED from 28th Jan - 3rd Feb. Again from same dealer, manufacturer ‘sopharma’.

Had 2 nights of sweats last week, but could be due to a cold I caught.

Generally feel ok, bit more alpha and assertive but could be placebo. Also, sex drive has increased, but again could be placebo.

Since Sunday 09 Feb, I have changed to Atlas (UK based online, good rep) test c at 150 mg twice pw and have gen x HCG which i bought from Atlas too.

Plan to continue cycle at 300mg test c and HCG 250 iu twice per week for a further 10 weeks. Will repeat bloods in 4-8 weeks.

PCT will be 4-6 weeks.

I think I have to accept that the first 4/5 weeks of this cycle are a write off sorts most likely due to bunk gear from the referred to dealer - shame.

PCT protocol will be something along the lines of -

Weeks 19 - 20

Nolva 20 mg ED, Enclo 25mg ED & 4500 iu HCG pw, x3 1500 iu shots.

Weeks 21 - 22

Nolva 10 mg ED & Enclo 12.5 ED.

Weeks 23 - 24

Enclo 12.5mg ED.

Will start PCT 2 weeks after last test c pin but will continue HCG during that period at 250 iu x2 pw.

So all together it’s 15/16 week cycle (admittedly 4/5 weeks potentially wasted), 2 week pause with HCG continuing and then 4-6 week PCT.

NB: this is my first AAS cycle, but have dabbled with SARMS and things like Cardarine and SR9009 In the past.

 

[Hyde]

Based on LH/FSH, you’re becoming suppressed, but the lower testosterone and estrogen makes me think the gear is massively underdosed. If it’s ~100mg/ml, you could definitely see lower than natty levels and reduction in estrogen (with prolactin naturally declining due to lowered estrogen).

I’d double the dose/oil volume until you get your new source, then switch immediately & bin the rest.

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks both.

Hopefully switching gear helps, which I’ll be able to get confirmation of in 4-8 weeks.

I do have arimidex on hand, but not inclined to use it … yet, which is based on my last set of bloods which showed my oestrogen levels reduce by almost half at 4 weeks / 1 month into cycle. Should my next set of bloods show elevated oestrogen levels, or should oestrogenic side effects exacerbate, I’ll take the AI.

Will look into HCG / PCT.

My entire cycle is below -

Week 1 - 4 (08/01 - 02/02):

test c 200mg pw, x2 shots of 100mg & HCG 500 iu pw, x2 shots of 250 iu.

Weeks 5 - 16 (05/02 - 27/04):

(Started new test 9th Feb & new HCG 10th Feb)

test c 300mg pw, x2 shots of 150mg.

Weeks 17 - 18 (28/04 - 11/05):

HCG 500 pw, x 2 shots of 250 iu.

PCT

Weeks 19 - 20 (12/05 - 25/05):

Nolva 20 mg ED, Enclo 25mg ED & 3000 iu HCG pw, x3 1000 iu shots.

Weeks 21 - 22 (26/05 - 08/06):

Nolva 10 mg ED & Enclo 12.5 ED.

Weeks 23 - 24 (09/06 - 22/06):

Enclo 12.5mg ED.

Thoughts?

 

[Hyde]

Thanks both.

Hopefully switching gear helps, which I’ll be able to get confirmation of in 4-8 weeks.

I do have arimidex on hand, but not inclined to use it … yet, which is based on my last set of bloods which showed my oestrogen levels reduce by almost half at 4 weeks / 1 month into cycle. Should my next set of bloods show elevated oestrogen levels, or should oestrogenic side effects exacerbate, I’ll take the AI.

Will look into HCG / PCT.

My entire cycle is below -

Week 1 - 4 (08/01 - 02/02):

test c 200mg pw, x2 shots of 100mg & HCG 500 iu pw, x2 shots of 250 iu.

Weeks 5 - 16 (05/02 - 27/04):

(Started new test 9th Feb & new HCG 10th Feb)

test c 300mg pw, x2 shots of 150mg.

Weeks 17 - 18 (28/04 - 11/05):

HCG 500 pw, x 2 shots of 250 iu.

PCT

Weeks 19 - 20 (12/05 - 25/05):

Nolva 20 mg ED, Enclo 25mg ED & 3000 iu HCG pw, x3 1000 iu shots.

Weeks 21 - 22 (26/05 - 08/06):

Nolva 10 mg ED & Enclo 12.5 ED.

Weeks 23 - 24 (09/06 - 22/06):

Enclo 12.5mg ED.

Thoughts?

HCG is suppressive to endogenous testosterone production. It’s functionally artificial LH. That and the estrogen burden it brings will inhibit endogenous LH production, which SERMs are used to promote.

So we take HCG to force the testes back to work & help reverse atrophy, getting them more ready to respond to endogenous LH when we administer the SERM - which needs to be done when you aren’t taking suppressive compounds.

You take a 10,000iu bottle of HCG over 2-3 weeks while your testosterone is clearing out, which keeps test & estrogen up somewhat, helping you to feel decent while the testes build back up.

3 weeks after your last shot, and after HCG has been completed, is when you would begin at least a month of SERM therapy to promote endogenous signaling for testosterone production.

TLDR: HCG is a bridge while test clears. SERM only begins after all compounds have cleared.

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks both.

So, I think I will do 15/16 week cycle of the test c, as per the above and will drop the HCG whilst on cycle.

I will consider bumping the test c up to 350 / 400 mg pw, as suggested.

For PCT, I will likely do Nolva 20mg ED and Enclo 25 mg ED for 4 weeks. Then, Enclo 12.5 mg ED and Nolva 10mg ED for a further 2 weeks - 6 week PCT minimum.

Between my last test c pin and PCT, I will take the HCG for 2-3 weeks.

Question - how long is reconstituted HCG good for if kept refrigerated?

 

[Smont]

Going by these numbers I think the gear is real but severely under dosed, so it looks like your replacing your natural testosterone with less testosterone and that's in turn shutting you down and leaving you with lower test and estrogen. I also think by raising the dose to 350-400 you will still be in the natty range as this looks severely under dosed.
.also carderine and sr are not sarms and not suppressive so those wouldn't mess with your numbers

 

[Hyde]

Reconstituted peptides are good for at least a few weeks generally. They’re degrading right away, but if you take HCG that’s a few weeks old you’ll still feel the rise in estrogen etc.

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks - so theoretically, reconstituted HCG which is used 2.5/3 months after reconstitution is ineffective / pissing in the wind?

Side question - injected into my glute on Sunday and last night noticed some tenderness and felt a fairly hard lump at the site of injection. It’s hardly visible though. If I look on the internet I read drastic things such as abscesses which could lead to death, or drastic surgical drainage? Is this extreme, or do I genuinely need to be concerned? Have you experienced something similar to my symptom, or heard of something like this before?

Today is Thursday and whilst I can feel the lump following Sundays injection, it’s barely visible, but still a bit tender. I injected last night, but into the other but cheek.

It’s worth noting in case I haven’t said before, this is my first AAS cycle and so I do have ‘virgin muscles’.

Thanks

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks mate - reassuring to know about pip / lump.

Also, noted on HCG - will chuck in this instance.

 

[Hyde]

Thanks mate - reassuring to know about pip / lump.

Also, noted on HCG - will chuck in this instance.

Agreed with what was said above. You’re sticking a needle into a muscle and squirting oil in; it’s often a bit irritated/swollen/tender or lumpy at times.

The main thing you need to be concerned with is if you see obvious & significant local red inflammation that continues to increase over continued time. So say the site gets angry looking, take a marker and outline the red. If it gets larger & larger two days in a row, seek medical attention. I’m not a doctor & this is my opinion for how I approach this scenario personally.

I have had red inflamed areas before from bad shots or bottles gone bad that took over a week to calm down, but what’s relevant is ‘Is this continuing to get worse?’ or is everything staying under control?

PIP can be pretty bad the first cycle you ever use a specific injection site, from virgin muscles, as you are aware.

Always clean the injection site & lid of vial prior to use, always use fresh sterile needs & syringes every time, & always store your vials in a temperature & moisture-controlled room out of direct light (so no bathroom cabinets).

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks for the advice - really appreciate it.

Noted on hygiene protocols too.

Here’s a pic of the referred to area - will keep an eye on it. Still reasonably tender, but in my opinion looks relatively minor / non-aggressive.

 

[Hyde]

Thanks for the advice - really appreciate it.

Noted on hygiene protocols too.

Here’s a pic of the referred to area - will keep an eye on it. Still reasonably tender.

If that was me, I wouldn’t be concerned for now. Just keep an eye on it and unless it gets worse it should get better in a week.

What length needle did you use there? Sometimes if it’s too shallow it can welt up easier too. 1” is usually ideal for glutes, even 1.5” for higher bodyfat.

 

[Jbone123]

1.25”, 23g - inject.
1”, 21g - draw up.

Is the needle I have generally suitable for quad / thigh in your opinion?

I injected into the other glute on Weds after the painful issue from Sunday (and because I rotate). I’m reluctant to inject into the sore glute or the same glute when I pin on Sunday again.

Have injected into my quad / thigh with the 1.25” / 23g needle and was alright, but good to get your opinion.

 

[Smont]

Reconstituted peptides are good for at least a few weeks generally. They’re degrading right away, but if you take HCG that’s a few weeks old you’ll still feel the rise in estrogen etc.

I don't know if it applies to all peptides, but most of the ones I've looked into start degrading slowly and after about about 3-4 weeks they really start dropping off. Igf-1 and hgh degrade even faster. With HCG I was always told to use it within 2 to 3 weeks

 

[Hyde]

1.25”, 23g - inject.
1”, 21g - draw up.

Is the needle I have generally suitable for quad / thigh in your opinion?

I injected into the other glute on Weds after the painful issue from Sunday (and because I rotate). I’m reluctant to inject into the sore glute or the same glute when I pin on Sunday again.

Have injected into my quad / thigh with the 1.25” / 23g needle and was alright, but good to get your opinion.

Yeah, plenty of guys use that size in quads.

Not me, but psychos who use 23g

 

[Joshinator]

Based on LH/FSH, you’re becoming suppressed, but the lower testosterone and estrogen makes me think the gear is massively underdosed. If it’s ~100mg/ml, you could definitely see lower than natty levels and reduction in estrogen (with prolactin naturally declining due to lowered estrogen).

I’d double the dose/oil volume until you get your new source, then switch immediately & bin the rest.

That was my thought. If its not from a pharmacy its probably underdosed

 

[Joshinator]

Id look at your bloodwork if you post the reference ranges too.

 

[heckler7]

your estro is high and so is the prolactin its what is giving you nipple problems, you need arimidex or letrozole, you may find a research chem site that makes a liquid form that can overnight it to you, your test numbers are low for 200mg of test cyp. I would drop all of if and start PCT

 

[Jbone123]

@Joshinator - according to the service provider that I used for the blood tests (UK based, ‘Manual’), the following were marginally out of the normal reference range from the Jan bloods - mean cell volume, FSH and prolactin, and in the Feb blood test, the following were marginally out of the normal reference range - mean cell volume, FSH and HDL. @heckler7 - prolactin was not considered high in the Feb blood tests, nor was oestrogen in either of the 2 tests.

I have considered calling quits on this first cycle of mine, but … I am going to repeat bloods on Weds next week. If the results from the next blood test are strange again, it is likely I’ll call it a day & jump into PCT as suggested.

One thing worth noting is that my Feb blood tests involved me pinning 100mg of test c on the Sunday, but the test was administered over 3 days later on the Weds morning. Not sure if this ‘could’ explain the reduction in total T & free T after 4 weeks into 100mg of test c twice per week?

Also worth noting is that I started new test c (Atlas Pharma, UK source with a good rep) on 09 Feb and have been on 150mg of test c twice per week since 05 Feb. I’m bumping up to 200mg pw from tomorrow with this same source of test c. In addition, I ditched the HCG whilst on cycle (as of 11 Feb) as @Hyde said the following, HCG is suppressive to endogenous testosterone. Again, I’m not sure whether this ‘could’ have played a part in a reduction of total and free T between Jan and Feb.

Also, I’ve decided to change my cycle from 16 weeks to 14 & then 6-8 weeks for the PCT. For the PCT, I was going to run Enclo and Nolva simultaneously, but several sources online tell me not to bother. So, instead, I am just going to run Nolva. My revised cycle plan, as things stand, is:

Cycle (14 weeks, pin Weds & Sunday)

Weeks 1 - 4 (08/01 - 04/02):

test c 200mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Took Nolva 10mg ED 28/01 - 03/02).

Week 5 (05/02 - 11/02):

Test c 300 mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Started new test on 9/02 and last HCG shot on 11/02).

Weeks 6 - 7 (12/02 - 25/02):

test c 300mg pw.

(Started Arimidex 1mg ED 19/02 - 21/02).

Week 8 - 14 (26/02 - 08/04):

Test c 400mg pw.

Weeks 15 - 16 (09/04 - 22/04):

HCG 5000 iu pw, 1250 iu x 4 pw.

PCT (8 weeks)

Weeks 17 - 22 (23/04 - 03/06):

Nolva 20 mg ED

Weeks 23 - 24 (04/06 - 18/06):

Nolva 10mg ED.

Thoughts and feedback on this beginners cycle welcome.

Just wanted to conclude by saying -

1) I’ll post next set of blood results when I get them back and we can take it from there;

2) I feel good & I am noticing strength gains and physique improvements. I haven’t turned into Flex Wheeler, but that’s cool & I knew that would be the case, unfortunately. Also, libido has increased.

 

[heckler7]

your estro should be below 50
Im not completely familiar with the test measurement you lab is using, Im in USA and our range is 250 to 950 for normal. Are you on TRT or HRT

 

[heckler7]

after 4 weeks in you should have a good saturation level to test higher when blood is drawn at any time but i will be peak next day, if your on TRT or cruising I usually can test first shot of cycle since my natural levels are already down and exo test has already taken over, just saying

 

[Jbone123]

@heckler7 - worth noting is the unit. The unit used in this instance is pmol/l, whereas you may be accustomed to pg/ml. If that’s the case, my oestrogen was 41 pg/ml in Jan and 25 pg/ml in Feb.

I’m not on TRT, no. It’s my first AAS cycle. If I could wind the clock back, I would have started with 400 mg of test per week, not used HCG from the start and ordered from Atlas Pharma from the start (subject to next weeks bloods confirming Atlas is g2g, which I think they will).

Thanks

 

[heckler7]

at least youre getting bloodwork, thats more than most people do

 

[Jbone123]

New bloods - pinned Sunday 2nd March & administered blood test on Monday 3rd March.

At least Atlas Pharma gear isn’t bunk, unlike the first batch I got elsewhere.

Shame there was an error with the FSH & LH readings, may ask for a repeat test free of charge as would be good to know & I haven’t received the full service.

Strength gains in the gym are clear.

Also balls are aching, which I assume is the atrophy. No noticeable sign of testicular shrinkage yet though.

Any concerns with these bloods? Feedback welcome and greatly appreciated as always.

 

[Hyde]

Everything that needs to be in range is, besides HDL a bit low, but that’s just a reality of steroid use.

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks, Hyde - whilst I’m having a whale of a time, I am somewhat concerned about how I will respond to the PCT and the suppression involved. But hey, you do the crime, you do the time, LOL!

 

[Hyde]

Thanks, Hyde - whilst I’m having a whale of a time, I am somewhat concerned about how I will respond to the PCT and the suppression involved. But hey, you do the crime, you do the time, LOL!

That’s really the truth of it, and what you need to remember when you inevitably have a bad day during it while your test/estro ratio is out of whack.

Even if you cruise, you will have a point after stopping your shots & letting androgen levels come down where estrogen can be too high relative to your testosterone (that’s still in normal range). It’s common about a couple weeks after the blast stops.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough, as they say.

 

[Jbone123]

What do you think about throwing in some HMG and proviron alongside HCG during the PCT window?

I’m not trying to make a baby, as I’m aware that’s a common reason for HMG use. So I wanted to clear that up.

I’m now 10 weeks into a 14 week test c cycle and been on 400-420 mg of test c for the past 4 weeks or so.

Nuts have reduced in size, libido has decreased somewhat & genitals feel less sensitive. Is this normal? At one point on this cycle, my libido was insane! That seems to be diminishing now, however.

When my nuts were going through the atrophy phase, it did ache a bit - but it wasn’t excruciating.

I digress.

I thought of the following during the 2 week PCT window -

Proviron - 50 mg ED;
HCG - 5,000 iu pw;
HMG - 150 iu pw.

Questions -

1) is the above PCT window protocol ‘good’ / necessary? Or should I just stick with HCG?

2) I’m going to need to open a new bottle of test, yet I’m not going to use it all as I’ve almost finished my cycle. Should I stick to my dose (considering it’s my first cycle), or increase it? I can’t extend my cycle as I’m going abroad in June and am allowing myself a PCT window of 2 weeks and up to 8 weeks of Nolva PCT (if needed) before the holiday starts.

3) how long is testosterone good for once opened? For example, if I store in a cool dry place, could I then reuse that test 6-8 months later?

P.s. if you haven’t followed this post, look at my recent blood work. Everything seems to be ok.

Thanks!

 

[Hyde]

What do you think about throwing in some HMG and proviron alongside HCG during the PCT window?

I’m not trying to make a baby, as I’m aware that’s a common reason for HMG use. So I wanted to clear that up.

I’m now 10 weeks into a 14 week test c cycle and been on 400-420 mg of test c for the past 4 weeks or so.

Nuts have reduced in size, libido has decreased somewhat & genitals feel less sensitive. Is this normal? At one point on this cycle, my libido was insane! That seems to be diminishing now, however.

When my nuts were going through the atrophy phase, it did ache a bit - but it wasn’t excruciating.

I digress.

I thought of the following during the 2 week PCT window -

Proviron - 50 mg ED;
HCG - 5,000 iu pw;
HMG - 150 iu pw.

Questions -

1) is the above PCT window protocol ‘good’ / necessary? Or should I just stick with HCG?

2) I’m going to need to open a new bottle of test, yet I’m not going to use it all as I’ve almost finished my cycle. Should I stick to my dose (considering it’s my first cycle), or increase it? I can’t extend my cycle as I’m going to Cyprus in June and am allowing myself a PCT window of 2 weeks and up to 8 weeks of Nolva PCT (if needed) before the holiday starts.

3) how long is testosterone good for once opened? For example, if I store in a cool dry place, could I then reuse that test 6-8 months later?

P.s. if you haven’t followed this post, look at my recent blood work. Everything seems to be ok.

Thanks!

1) 5,000iu HCG will be plenty during the 2 weeks or so test is clearing out - no good reason to add the HMG or Proviron when fertility isn’t needed

2) Don’t raise the dose further on a first cycle. There will be time for all of that later, and you don’t need to be in a rush to find your gear limits. Trying to get more from less will help mitigate unnecessary sides & risk. You can only grow so much so fast so often.

3)I have used well-kept open vials well over a year later without issue. 6-8 months is generally no problem, but be prepared to test a very small amount first on yourself before taking a full dose when you go back to it - there IS a risk of bacterial growth & infection. I have never ever had it bite me, but best practice would be to toss things that have been opened for a few months. Up to you if you want to risk needing an antibiotic. Test isn’t that expensive, so choose carefully.

 

[Jbone123]

Thanks so much - final q, what about extending the cycle to 16 weeks? My PCT would then be 6 weeks. Or I could extend to 18 weeks and PCT for 4 weeks. I then go on holiday straight away thereafter (I.e after the 24 week period, currently at week 11).

 

[Hyde]

Thanks so much - final q, what about extending the cycle to 16 weeks? My PCT would then be 6 weeks. Or I could extend to 18 weeks and PCT for 4 weeks. I then go on holiday straight away thereafter (I.e after the 24 week period, currently at week 11).

I really wouldn’t; staying suppressed for that long isn’t ideal when you’re planning to come off and fully recover endogenous production. Don’t make life harder on yourself; you won’t make as many more gains in the extra 2 weeks as you could lose if you don’t restart well.

 

[Jbone123]

Ah, mate - I’m really thinking I want to stay on for 16 weeks and not 14. Also, given the background of this whole thing - remember, the first 4 weeks, the gear I received was severely underdosed therefore I essentially lost 4 weeks.

Am I trying to rationalise? I am a newbie & so if 14 weeks is your suggestion given the elongated backstory of all this, I’ll give in & come off at 14 weeks

 

[Smont]

Ah, mate - I’m really thinking I want to stay on for 16 weeks and not 14. Also, given the background of this whole thing - remember, the first 4 weeks, the gear I received was severely underdosed therefore I essentially lost 4 weeks.

Am I trying to rationalise? I am a newbie & so if 14 weeks is your suggestion given the elongated backstory of all this, I’ll give in & come off at 14 weeks

You are going to have to make that decision but the first 4 weeks being underdosed i doesn't mean it wasn't the first 4 weeks of suppression. Whether you were on 50 mg of testosterone or 500 mg of testosterone you still sent the signal to shut off your own natural testosterone production.

Personally I think anybody who's going to run more then 1 cycle per year should stay on testosterone in between cycles. If you plan on running a PCT and then hopping right back on cycle in a month or 2, The PCT was probably pointless in the first place.

But I will also say if your picking between 14 and 16 weeks, probably not a huge difference in those extra 2 weeks.

I'm going to add one last little tidbit here, if you end up making gains till 14, You're probably going to push it to 16, And if you're still making gains at 16 you're probably going to convince yourself to push it to 20, And before you know it you could be on for 6 months.

And the reason I'm saying this is because lots of people do it and I've done it myself too .

So if your planning on NOT needing TRT any time soon. Or you don't want to stay on in between your cycles. It would probably make the most sense to keep the cycles to about 12 weeks and avoid the really long esters like deca and eq and trestolone D. Ect.

 

[Jbone123]

Smont, Hyde and others - thank you.

I was considering TRT, but was concerned about travelling abroad (UK based) with UGL test and injecting equipment, and encountering issues with domestic and foreign customs. I suspect at some point, I may do TRT - however, not sure I’m ready to commit to it yet.

I’m going to do 14 weeks, 2 week window with HCG only & then Enclo and Nolva for 6-8 weeks PCT. In total that is 22/24 weeks worth of action and my intention was to wait a further 22/24 weeks until my next cycle - so therefore one cycle per year. From what I’ve read, that’s sensible.

Will be interesting to see how I bounce back following this PCT. I’m a 34 yo male and my baseline total T was 17.1 nmol/l and free T 0.329 nmol/l prior to this cycle.

I plan to get blood work 12 weeks post PCT. I’ll be interested to see what my prolactin levels will be at that point, as pre-cycle they were mildly elevated - 565 mlU/l. The UK National Health Service considers anything above 700 mIU/l to warrant prolactinoma / Hyperprolactinaemia investigation.

Since being on cycle, I have had 2 blood tests - 1 at 4 weeks, prolactin was within normal range (makes sense as was becoming suppressed from underdosed gear), and then at 8 weeks into cycle, again slightly elevated - 377 mIU/l.

I’ve digressed, but thanks again for support.

Was seriously considering 16 weeks, or beyond as the gains are starting to come thick and fast now. Therefore, I don’t want it to stop.

 

[Hyde]

I would definitely not travel abroad with gear - guys just take a big shot before they go and get back within a few weeks. They might take a few orals or an AI with depending on scenario, but traveling through customs anywhere with oil and syringes without a script is asking for trouble.

It’s your body and you can do 16 if you want, but time suppressed at any dose is still time suppressed and it doesn’t get easier the longer you are on. I pray you never experience a hard PCT, but I have had one and the suck can get pretty damn bad if things take a long time to normalize.

 

[Jbone123]

Right, I need to ask you about the alternative then - TRT.

My last pin for this 14 week cycle is Sunday this week.

If I’m to commit to TRT - what would be the next stages be for me post Sunday?

Presumably I would reduce my dose for a start, if so from 420 mg test c pw to how much? Would I incorporate some HCG? Would getting on growth hormone be advisable?

Is 34 too young to be on TRT?

Baseline T was 493 ng/dl and free T was 9.4890 ng/dl. Prolactin was 26.555 ng/ml.

I’ve put the above in American format so you can understand better.

As you can see, my prolactin was mildly (not alarmingly) elevated and perhaps that has something to do with my baseline T levels being sub-optimal? As I’ve said previously, I’ll monitor this through repeated blood work & that should advise whether further investigation is necessary.

Ultimately, I’ve enjoyed being on cycle and if I’m going to do it once a year, that means that for half the year I’m going to be small & I’ll only have so many cycles in me before I can’t bounce back.

 

[Hyde]

Right, I need to ask you about the alternative then - TRT.

My last pin for this 14 week cycle is Sunday this week.

If I’m to commit to TRT - what would be the next stages be for me post Sunday?

Presumably I would reduce my dose for a start, if so from 420 mg test c pw to how much? Would I incorporate some HCG? Would getting on growth hormone be advisable?

Is 34 too young to be on TRT?

Baseline T was 493 ng/dl and free T was 9.4890 ng/dl. Prolactin was 26.555 ng/ml.

I’ve put the above in American format so you can understand better.

As you can see, my prolactin was mildly (not alarmingly) elevated and perhaps that has something to do with my baseline T levels being sub-optimal? As I’ve said previously, I’ll monitor this through repeated blood work & that should advise whether further investigation is necessary.

Ultimately, I’ve enjoyed being on cycle and if I’m going to do it once a year, that means that for half the year I’m going to be small & I’ll only have so many cycles in me before I can’t bounce back.

If you are going to cruise on self-administered testosterone, you can blast as long as you like and cruise on as much as you dare.

I always take 2 weeks off shots at least after a blast to let my elevated levels come down faster before resuming any cruise dose, because this restores lipids & blood thickness faster than if you immediately keep pinning a lower dose. You also will generally not recover as well if you use a dose above actual TRT ranges. Taking 125-150/wk is going to be healthier than staying on 2-300, or adding other compounds, no question. More drugs are less healthy; real TRT is best on a cruise if the point is to restore health as quickly as possible post blast.

If you are asking if you are ready to be on testosterone for the rest of your life, I would say you are NOT. I am 34. I have cycled and done my own bloodwork since I was 21. At 30 years old my son was born, I had a stepdaughter, and my wife had a very hard pregnancy so we decided no more. That’s when I started cruising, when I got snipped and had nearly a decade of use/health knowledge acquired (literally thousands of hours of reading/listening about gear use). I was entirely ready mentally for it, and knowledgeable enough to be my own doctor.

Forever is a long time, homie. You should be very sure.

 

[Jbone123]

thanks mate - appreciate you sharing your story.

So a bit about me - 34 yo male, 183 cm tall and weigh circa 210 ibs.

From circa Sept 2020 - March 2024, I trained consistently. My method during that time was bro-split - chest, arms, back, legs, shoulders (5x per week). Sometimes I did 6x per week, and added in an extra leg or chest day, for example.

During that time, rightly or wrongly, I did dabble with a few SARMS and things like Cardarine and SR9009. Ultimately, quite underwhelming although RAD 140 did reduce body fat and incur impressive strength gains.

In March 2024 through to December 2024 (10 months), I stopped training and my twin daughters were born in August 2024. I could not train during this period, as I started a new job which involved roughly 4 hours of commuting 5 days per week, and my babies took all my energy when I was not working. Diet was poor during this time, as I was stressed.

In October 2024, I started a new job and there is more flexibility in this job and the commute is less. Furthermore, the initial shell shock of having babies has lessened, albeit still strenuous at times. Nonetheless, a blessing.

In January 2025, I was a blob - I.e. body fat was high and muscle had deteriorated.

Everyone is different and I suspect some may call me a retard for making the following choice, but my choice was to jump on a steroid cycle in Jan 2025 to fast track gains and now here I am, week 14 into this cycle and I’m heavier and stronger than pre March 2024; have also dropped body fat considerably since Jan 2025.

Due to the mentioned life changes, I no longer have the luxury of training 5-6 pw, and so now it’s 3 times pw - push, pull, legs. I’m also pretty good with getting my steps in.

I do not want any more babies.

I have an injury sustained on my right arm from a compound fracture to the humerus bone from 2016 and will forever have a plate in that arm. It causes me issues from time to time, but I try not to make it an excuse when training.

Ultimately, what I’m trying to get at is pre March 2024, I feel as though I hit my ceiling. I’m passionate about aesthetics and I want to continue as I am, but granted - forever is a long time indeed.

Some serious thinking to do in a short space of time.

 

[Jbone123]

Smont, Hyde - I’ve decided I’m going to blast & cruise.

Blast will remain at 420 mg of test and incorporating 2 iu ED of HGH from Saturday.

Revised schedule below -

Blast (24.5 weeks, pin Weds & Sunday)

Weeks 1 - 4 (08/01 - 04/02):

test c 200mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Took Nolva 10mg ED 28/01 - 03/02).

Week 5 (05/02 - 11/02):

Test c 300 mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Started new test on 9/02 and last HCG shot on 11/02).

Weeks 6 - 7 (12/02 - 25/02):

test c 300mg pw.

(Took Arimidex 1mg ED 19/02 - 21/02).

Week 8 - 24.5 (26/02 - 25/06)

Test c 420mg pw.

(Took Arimidex 1 mg on 28/02 and 0.5 mg on 01/03 and on 02/03; 0.5 mg from 10/03 - 21/03; 0.5 mg 05/04, 07/04, 10/04).

HGH - 2 iu ED starting 12/04 - 25/06 (10.5 weeks).

Pause - week 24.5 - 26.5 (26/06 - 08/07)

No supplements. Will be abroad.

Cruise - 09/07 - ongoing

125 / 150 test c pw, 1 shot every Weds.

Thoughts?

Will I likely feel like **** between 26/06 and 08/07?

An alternative would be to end my blast at 14 weeks, so this Sunday and then do HCG 10,000 iu over 2 weeks & then start my cruise protocol on an ongoing basis with the HGH.

 

[Hyde]

Smont, Hyde - I’ve decided I’m going to blast & cruise.

Blast will remain at 420 mg of test and incorporating 2 iu ED of HGH from Saturday.

Revised schedule below -

Blast (24.5 weeks, pin Weds & Sunday)

Weeks 1 - 4 (08/01 - 04/02):

test c 200mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Took Nolva 10mg ED 28/01 - 03/02).

Week 5 (05/02 - 11/02):

Test c 300 mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Started new test on 9/02 and last HCG shot on 11/02).

Weeks 6 - 7 (12/02 - 25/02):

test c 300mg pw.

(Took Arimidex 1mg ED 19/02 - 21/02).

Week 8 - 24.5 (26/02 - 25/06)

Test c 420mg pw.

(Took Arimidex 1 mg on 28/02 and 0.5 mg on 01/03 and on 02/03; 0.5 mg from 10/03 - 21/03; 0.5 mg 05/04, 07/04, 10/04).

HGH - 2 iu ED starting 12/04 - 25/06 (10.5 weeks).

Pause - week 24.5 - 26.5 (26/06 - 08/07)

No supplements. Will be abroad.

Cruise - 09/07 - ongoing

125 / 150 test c pw, 1 shot every Weds.

Thoughts?

Will I likely feel like **** between 26/06 and 08/07?

An alternative would be to end my blast at 14 weeks, so this Sunday and then do HCG 10,000 iu over 2 weeks & then start my cruise protocol on an ongoing basis with the HGH.

I don’t understand why there are hard dates on the blast, or how you expect to get something meaningful out of running the same blast dose for 4 months. If you are going to cruise, you just run the gear until you stop making progress - at this point you need to either up the dose or come back to a cruise.

Generally you would consider your health in that decision: is it beginning to degrade, how stressed is the body, where are you at mentally & in life with being able to push training sufficiently, do you still have enough supplies on hand, etc?

If health is honestly quite good in feel & bloodwork, you can keep going. But you also need to weigh exposure; staying on much longer for minimal improvements may not be worth it.

 

[Smont]

I was gonna say the same. It's good to have a cycle outline, but don't just pick random dates. You should make adjustments as needed. If I'm on 300 test and whatever else and I'm still growing and not getting sides then why would I change it. With steroids, if it's working then stick with it till it stops working. Most ppl will be on a gram of gear before they max out what 300-500mg can do. Basically you ride it until the wheels start to fall off and then you check your health and if everything's good you kick it up a notch

Or


You end up wasting your gear and getting more side effects.

 

[Hyde]

I was gonna say the same. It's good to have a cycle outline, but don't just pick random dates. You should make adjustments as needed. If I'm on 300 test and whatever else and I'm still growing and not getting sides then why would I change it. With steroids, if it's working then stick with it till it stops working. Most ppl will be on a gram of gear before they max out what 300-500mg can do. Basically you ride it until the wheels start to fall off and then you check your health and if everything's good you kick it up a notch

Or


You end up wasting your gear and getting more side effects.

But if I just take 5 grams I’ll definitely get maximum gains right??

 

[Smont]

But if I just take 5 grams I’ll definitely get maximum gains right??

If that worked I'd do it lol, maybe not 5g, but 2g would be where I would start if I knew it was going to work. I don't think I've ever been going above 1.3g total gear anyways

Now a days, knowing what I do now as opposed to years previous, and in a situation like this guy where he has HGH and test.

I'd start at 300 test and work up to the most test that I can handle without any sides. So how much test can you run without getting acne, tits or high blood pressure. That don't mean use a AI and a gram. Test only till I start getting sides and Then I'd add 2Units of GH. Then I would keep those steady.

Once i stopped gaining I'd add more food.

Then when I stalled again I'd add a second compound and up my GH to 4.

I don't know a ton about GH, I don't think anyone really does, I just know typically how guys run it when there being intelligent about it.

So now maybe I'm 8 weeks in and on 400 test, 300mast and 4iu GH. Assuming there's no sides or negative health impacts at this point I add more food again. And I would continue the process like that. If your not benching 300+ and deadlifting 500+ by now then your doing something wrong or your jumping the gun on gear use. I know strength is not particularly important for muscle growth, but it is.....

If you need a gram of gear to bench 300lbs your ceiling for making gains is probably very low and your response to gear is probably going to be crap, or you just don't eat and train right.

But nobody needs to be on steroids to bench press two plates for reps or deadlifts 3 plates for reps. So if you can't do those numbers and you're already pushing the gear doses you're f***** from day one.

That's when you got to take a step back and start all over and I'm sure anyone who's been around this board for a while knows that I did that myself. I ran a bunch of cycles and looked mediocre as f*** until about 2 years ago When I started from scratch and started practicing what I preach. 2 years later no I do not look like Nick Walker, But I look significantly bigger and I've gotten significantly leaner.

This msg wasn't aimed at anyone. I'm just rambling on my lunch break

 

[Smont]

I think something else that most people don't realize is that only about 10% of steroid users actually look like they're on steroids and only about 1% of that 10% look like a bodybuilder, and only about 1% of that 1% look like a world champion bodybuilder.

Most steroid users look like Joe schmo at planet fitness

 

[Smont]

I'm currently the biggest guy at my boxing gym and at the pf I use when I need a quick in and out workout. That's pathetic lol. I'm 200lbs. There not a single person there over 200 who isn't 20-30% bf or like 6'4.

And there's plenty of steroid users at that PF.

But you know genetics don't matter, You just need more gear. Right?

 

[Smont]

Smont, Hyde - I’ve decided I’m going to blast & cruise.

Blast will remain at 420 mg of test and incorporating 2 iu ED of HGH from Saturday.

Revised schedule below -

Blast (24.5 weeks, pin Weds & Sunday)

Weeks 1 - 4 (08/01 - 04/02):

test c 200mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Took Nolva 10mg ED 28/01 - 03/02).

Week 5 (05/02 - 11/02):

Test c 300 mg pw & HCG 500 iu pw.

(Started new test on 9/02 and last HCG shot on 11/02).

Weeks 6 - 7 (12/02 - 25/02):

test c 300mg pw.

(Took Arimidex 1mg ED 19/02 - 21/02).

Week 8 - 24.5 (26/02 - 25/06)

Test c 420mg pw.

(Took Arimidex 1 mg on 28/02 and 0.5 mg on 01/03 and on 02/03; 0.5 mg from 10/03 - 21/03; 0.5 mg 05/04, 07/04, 10/04).

HGH - 2 iu ED starting 12/04 - 25/06 (10.5 weeks).

Pause - week 24.5 - 26.5 (26/06 - 08/07)

No supplements. Will be abroad.

Cruise - 09/07 - ongoing

125 / 150 test c pw, 1 shot every Weds.

Thoughts?

Will I likely feel like **** between 26/06 and 08/07?

An alternative would be to end my blast at 14 weeks, so this Sunday and then do HCG 10,000 iu over 2 weeks & then start my cruise protocol on an ongoing basis with the HGH.

Bro just start at step 1 and take your time, max out what you can do on a given dose and then make your changes. The only definite that comes with bodybuilding and steroid use is that there are no definites

 

[Smont]

And log it! Il follow along 100%

 

[Jbone123]

Wow - thanks for the input both.

I’ll be less stringent/obsessed with the dates of this mild blast, but will log what I’m doing, as suggested.

As you know, I had pre-bloods administered, bloods administered at one month of being on cycle, and again at the 2 month mark. These were comprehensive blood tests, which measured many markers.

I’m now 3.5 months in and so will probs get more bloods done at the 4 month mark.

I do take saw palmetto, tudca and nac. I don’t drink alcohol, or take recreational drugs. I try to drink plenty of water per day too and my
diet is reasonable.

I’d also be keen to get my IGF-1 levels tested, but **** me - here in the UK, they’re circa £150 for a test. I may see if I can get this done for free via the National Health Service, but will need to give a plausible rationale - I’ll probs say to my GP, ‘as my prolactin levels were a little high, I’m curious to see whether my IGF-1 levels are within a normal range, as they’re both associated with the pituitary gland’ - they may buy that, they may not. Either way, I think it’s important to see what my baseline GH levels are prior to starting HGH.

Smont - as I’ve said before, I did not start this cycle with good foundations. Despite having a history of routinised training, I had 10 months away from the gym before starting this cycle. Unfortunately, in a natty state, I was rarely able to bench 2 plates despite splitting testicles to try to do so (figure of speech), however I can now and more, but not quite 300 ibs.

If I can ever bench 3 plates for reps, I’ll personally be a happy man. In addition, if I’m aesthetically lean and large and my quality of life is good, I’ll take that and all of what I’m doing will be worth it.

As always, thanks for the input guys. I’ll probs have more questions down the line, but for now that’s it.

 

[Smont]

Wow - thanks for the input both.

I’ll be less stringent/obsessed with the dates of this mild blast, but will log what I’m doing, as suggested.

As you know, I had pre-bloods administered, bloods administered at one month of being on cycle, and again at the 2 month mark. These were comprehensive blood tests, which measured many markers.

I’m now 3.5 months in and so will probs get more bloods done at the 4 month mark.

I do take saw palmetto, tudca and nac. I don’t drink alcohol, or take recreational drugs. I try to drink plenty of water per day too and my
diet is reasonable.

I’d also be keen to get my IGF-1 levels tested, but **** me - here in the UK, they’re circa £150 for a test. I may see if I can get this done for free via the National Health Service, but will need to give a plausible rationale - I’ll probs say to my GP, ‘as my prolactin levels were a little high, I’m curious to see whether my IGF-1 levels are within a normal range, as they’re both associated with the pituitary gland’ - they may buy that, they may not. Either way, I think it’s important to see what my baseline GH levels are prior to starting HGH.

Smont - as I’ve said before, I did not start this cycle with good foundations. Despite having a history of routinised training, I had 10 months away from the gym before starting this cycle. Unfortunately, in a natty state, I was rarely able to bench 2 plates despite splitting testicles to try to do so (figure of speech), however I can now and more, but not quite 300 ibs.

If I can ever bench 3 plates for reps, I’ll personally be a happy man. In addition, if I’m aesthetically lean and large and my quality of life is good, I’ll take that and all of what I’m doing will be worth it.

As always, thanks for the input guys. I’ll probs have more questions down the line, but for now that’s it.

That's ok, it's all the more reason to use less for longer. You will be able to add a significant amount of size and strength without much gear. I want to clarify something in general, not aiming this directly to you, but I know a lot of times when I give advice like this I think people get this thing in their mind like yeah yeah of course everyone's going to say use less, you don't want to use a lot. And that is true, But I'm not against using big doses. I think if someone can run two grams of gear or more and they can keep their health markers in check to a reasonable degree then go for it, it's your body do what you want with it and if you want to be huge one day you're probably going to have to do some crazy s***. But go for it when it's necessary, there's a lot of gains to be made on small doses early in the game. And if someone ends up blasting a gram of gear, which still isn't even a huge dose, But if people use big doses out the gate and you need those big doses to get that "foundation" or whatever you want to call it. Then imagine how much more that person's going to need when they want to progress past a solid foundation. You just end up in this circle of just needing more and not growing more. There's lots of ppl who CRUISE on a gram of test and primo or mast and weight 160lbs. A 250 lb pro bodybuilder doesn't even need to cruise on that. So imagine how much gear that guy may have to use if he wants to be 200 or 220 or 240 and lean. There is no amount of gear that'll ever get a person like that there because you got to use the training and the food better before you can make that gear do its thing. The gear is a means of recovering and partitioning nutrients better. You have to apply the stimulus for growth, in the nutrition to recover, and a slight excess of nutrition to grow, in the gear makes all of that work full circle. But if you're not providing the stimulus and the nutrition for 3 or 400 mg then you're definitely not going to be able to provide the stimulus and nutrition for a 1000 milligrams.

I'm just trying to lay out my bro logic lol. I'm working on making a dumbed down simple as possible to understand explanation of how to cycle for some of my buddies, I'm literally going to call it cycles for bro-tards. It's not going to be anything mind blowing but it's hopefully going to give everybody and anybody who's just getting started a basic layout of how to put that first 20 lb of muscle on and get significantly stronger and slowly build the doses up as needed. Basically all the stuff that a lot of us just repeat here over and over again. I'm literally going to do it and send it to my buddies so that every time they ask me a question I can just tell him to look at the f****** paper

In your situation using test and GH together right out the gate you should have faster progress than normal just there alone. Even two units is going to help you recover a little better and gain less body fat. So having that in place early on is going to make a big difference in the long run if you're doing the other things correct