Cycle Critique

BBiceps

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I didn’t start running Primo until I got older, and have always ran it at 400 and just doubled my TRT dose, usually for 12 weeks, but I have gone 16 weeks because I loved the slow steady gains.
To be honest that 16 week run was really nice and made me want more, but I had to show restraint. 😇
I don’t do anything too harsh anymore, just enough to be able to enjoy a cycle or two a year and then back to TRT.
That’s what I did, 400/400 Test/Primo, slow steady gains for the win.
 
khall1974

khall1974

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I didn’t start running Primo until I got older, and have always ran it at 400 and just doubled my TRT dose, usually for 12 weeks, but I have gone 16 weeks because I loved the slow steady gains.
To be honest that 16 week run was really nice and made me want more, but I had to show restraint.
I don’t do anything too harsh anymore, just enough to be able to enjoy a cycle or two a year and then back to TRT.
Self or doctor prescribed trt??
 
manifesto

manifesto

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I'm keeping an eye on bloodwork to see how much AI I need to incorporate (if any). I don't aromarize very heavily...and I know Primo prevents some aromatization as well.

My last TRT bloodwork had my test at 1400 and E2 was 61....with no AI.
 
manifesto

manifesto

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Did either of you fellas run an AI?
 
Hyde

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GW 0742

It literally kicks regular old Cardarine out of the water. The research suggests it to be more selective in ppar agonism, although side effects of course were still present. I ran some from Science.bio and absolutely loved it. This was during a heavy cycle including tren and I needed to keep my lipids in check. I will say that nothing could beat the injectable sr 9009/ Cardarine combo for energy. That stuff was literally like rocket fuel. However much heavier on the sides
What sides did you get from injectable SR & Cardarine?
 
gphagan1

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Did either of you fellas run an AI?
No, didn’t need an AI. Highest I’ve seen my Estradiol was 51, on Test and Primo together.
I’m ok with a little high E, as long as no sides, but I also haven’t ran them as high as you are either. My guess is you’ll probably be fine with out one. I’d just keep an eye out.
 
ugsavage

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What sides did you get from injectable SR & Cardarine?
Same sides I would get running Cardarine although somewhat more pronounced. Mainly hypoglycemia during high intensity training. However a good intra workout seemed to solve this. I also developed two or three stye on my eyelids that subsequently went away after stopping the combo
 
Hyde

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Same sides I would get running Cardarine although somewhat more pronounced. Mainly hypoglycemia during high intensity training. However a good intra workout seemed to solve this. I also developed two or three stye on my eyelids that subsequently went away after stopping the combo
I wouldn’t have considered that a side effect: you are taking it for the metabolic enhancements. You crank that dial and also train hard, you are definitely going to need more fuel to meet substrate demands. I was very confused when you mentioned side effects at first!

Now the stye thing, that is definitely a side - and strange at that!
 

Jeremyk1

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No, didn’t need an AI. Highest I’ve seen my Estradiol was 51, on Test and Primo together.
I’m ok with a little high E, as long as no sides, but I also haven’t ran them as high as you are either. My guess is you’ll probably be fine with out one. I’d just keep an eye out.
Yeah I think @Smont says he lets his E run high on cycles. Typically, the higher androgens are enough to balance higher estrogen. If you aren’t getting any bad effects, more estrogen would only be beneficial.
 
manifesto

manifesto

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Yeah, I'm not taking any AI, but feeling like I'm holding a little water...so I'll wait and see what the E2 comes back as
 
Smont

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Yeah, I'm not taking any AI, but feeling like I'm holding a little water...so I'll wait and see what the E2 comes back as
Anyone can do whatever they want, I'm not saying this is the way in just talking from my preference and thought on the subject. But I wouldn't use a ai for the sole fact I was holding water, first I'd clean up diet and then I'd address aldosterone. If your retaining fluid and it's raising your bp and putting a strain on the kidneys then something like telmasartan (I'm sure I butchered the spelling on that lol) but I'd rather use that first. I don't keep any on hand because I have lost my source for it but the angiotensin 2 receptor blocker like telmasartan is good to have in your stash
 
Smont

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Yeah I think @Smont says he lets his E run high on cycles. Typically, the higher androgens are enough to balance higher estrogen. If you aren’t getting any bad effects, more estrogen would only be beneficial.
I let it run high within reason, or at least I use to. I haven't gone over 300-350mg of testosterone in a long time and even now I'm on 300 but I got 200masteron with it as my mini cycle of sorts and I did a crappy at home estrogen test on 150 test only and on the 300/200 and estrogen went up like 18 points (which is nothing for me, everything feels exactly the same as when I was on 150 test only)
 
manifesto

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My BP is 120/70...so rhats all good...it was probably just the extra carbs I had that day that made me feel fluffy. No other high E2 symptoms
 
Smont

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My BP is 120/70...so rhats all good...it was probably just the extra carbs I had that day that made me feel fluffy. No other high E2 symptoms
Ya your bp is awesome.

Mine is usually 130/80ish, for some reason though when I'm pounding raw vegetables and really dieting good is the only time it's like yours where I want it to be 120/80.

The weird thing is because my BP normally runs high, you would think cycles and orals would jack it up through the roof, but it stays the same, even on anadrol and things that are notorious for raising blood pressure
 
Smont

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Then again, I've never really ran anything at what I would consider "high" doses so maybe I just haven't pushed the envelope hard enough to find out lol
 
manifesto

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Ya your bp is awesome.

Mine is usually 130/80ish, for some reason though when I'm pounding raw vegetables and really dieting good is the only time it's like yours where I want it to be 120/80.

The weird thing is because my BP normally runs high, you would think cycles and orals would jack it up through the roof, but it stays the same, even on anadrol and things that are notorious for raising blood pressure
I dont know how much to contribute my BP to this, but I've been taking 5mg Cialis daily for several months.

Also, I recently added 4 grams of Astralagus as a staple. And I drink greens daily....the rest of my diet is just so so
 
manifesto

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I let it run high within reason, or at least I use to. I haven't gone over 300-350mg of testosterone in a long time and even now I'm on 300 but I got 200masteron with it as my mini cycle of sorts and I did a crappy at home estrogen test on 150 test only and on the 300/200 and estrogen went up like 18 points (which is nothing for me, everything feels exactly the same as when I was on 150 test only)
What was your E2 on the home test?
 
Smont

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What was your E2 on the home test?
I gotta find it to be 100% certain but I think I was like 33 or 35 on 150 and when I bumped up the gear it went up 18 points on the second test. Il pull it out tomorrow and double check. The difference between my real blood on 150 and the home test on 150 was not that much different. I actually did 3 home tests. First home test was late October, second home test was mid November while I was finishing my cut and taking a Fat loss/natural ai supplement from apex and it was a couple points lower. Then I did it again 4ish weeks after I started the cycle.
 
Smont

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I dont know how much to contribute my BP to this, but I've been taking 5mg Cialis daily for several months.

Also, I recently added 4 grams of Astralagus as a staple. And I drink greens daily....the rest of my diet is just so so
I take 5-7mg of it most of the year and it slightly "very slightly" lowers my BP but nothing to write home about. I'm not the best responder to tadalafil and Viagra, I get a tiny reduction in bp and a ever so slight better pump, none of the sexual benifits and if I use too much of either I get a stuff nose, but the benifits dont seem to increase for anything.
As for astragalus I realized I wasn't taking enough for it to make a difference so I gotta pick up a bunch, the product I purchased was only 500mg per cap so if you know a higher dose per cap product let me know.

The things that seem to work best for me for lowering bp and cholesterol for that matter, when I'm doing cardio and eating a lot of vegetables (gotta assume it's the fiber) those 2 things seem to help the most.
 
manifesto

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As for astragalus I realized I wasn't taking enough for it to make a difference so I gotta pick up a bunch, the product I purchased was only 500mg per cap so if you know a higher dose per cap product let me know.
My Astralagus is also 500mg. I take 4 in the am and 4 in the pm. It seems to be the only supplement I've heard about (mainly through podcast) that can actually restore kidney health, and also helps with hypertension.

I also recommend taking some Ubiquinol if you aren't already. I take 400mg of this. I think it helps my BP, but mainly I take it for cardiac health (helps prevent LVH).

You're right though, Telemisartan is rhe way to go, but I don't have any and don't feel like dealing with an overseas pharmacy.
 
Smont

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My Astralagus is also 500mg. I take 4 in the am and 4 in the pm. It seems to be the only supplement I've heard about (mainly through podcast) that can actually restore kidney health, and also helps with hypertension.

I also recommend taking some Ubiquinol if you aren't already. I take 400mg of this. I think it helps my BP, but mainly I take it for cardiac health (helps prevent LVH).

You're right though, Telemisartan is rhe way to go, but I don't have any and don't feel like dealing with an overseas pharmacy.
Ubiquinol I take 200mg a day, it's a very underrated supplement, whenever I can't get a good price on it but I can get a good price on CoQ10 I'll buy that instead and take like 600 mg a day. The ubiquinol is much better though. The combination of ubiquinol with l carnitine has some studies behind it for heart remodeling, look into that at some cool stuff
 
manifesto

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Ubiquinol I take 200mg a day, it's a very underrated supplement, whenever I can't get a good price on it but I can get a good price on CoQ10 I'll buy that instead and take like 600 mg a day. The ubiquinol is much better though. The combination of ubiquinol with l carnitine has some studies behind it for heart remodeling, look into that at some cool stuff
That's awesome. I didn't know that l carnitine info. I'll check it out.
 
manifesto

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Once I'm done with this blast, I'll drop the Ubiquinol down to 200mg because it does get a little pricey.
 
Smont

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Once I'm done with this blast, I'll drop the Ubiquinol down to 200mg because it does get a little pricey.
Idk what the optimal dose is honestly, I just remember seeing a lot of things recommended 100-300 so I went in the middle lol,
 
manifesto

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Same here...Derek from MPMD said he takes 400mg...he references a report of a dude on a heart transplant list that megadosed Ubiquinol and ended up not even needing a new heart
 
gphagan1

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This is some good information on Ubiquinol and L Carnitine. I take CoQ10, but I’m going to switch to Ubiquinol.
 
manifesto

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Some good information in this article. He gives his opinion on the adequate dose of supplements, but it's based on a sh1t ton of research...which, I myself, don't have the time to do
 
gphagan1

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I’ll check that out later after dinner. Looks like some good stuff.👍
 
manifesto

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Quote from the above article

"I used to take 200 mg per day, but I heard a story of a bodybuilder who was on a heart transplant list who mega-dosed Ubiquinol at 1500 mg per day and actually got himself off the heart transplant list and significantly reversed his heart damage."
 
Hyde

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I read an article from the American society of blah blah cardiologists something or other, and they essentially said if under 30 then 100mg per day was plenty, and over age 30 they recommended 200mg. Ubiquinol is only necessary if you lack the conversion enzymes, but since those diminish as you age it becomes increasingly likely you will see bigger returns by using Ubiquinol over plain Coq10. So basically anyone interested in supplementing it should be looking at 200mg Ubiquinol split into 2 doses for anti-aging/heart health purposes.

Vigorous Steve uses that dose and has mentioned if you want to make cardio easier you can dose all at once and get more endurance easier. It does seem to help a tad of boom-dosing preWO, but on cycle I keep it to split doses to help heart stress.
 
Smont

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This is some good information on Ubiquinol and L Carnitine. I take CoQ10, but I’m going to switch to Ubiquinol.
The older you get the harder it is for your body to turn coQ10 into Ubiquinol, so your better off taking ubiquinol as it's the active form of coQ10
 
gphagan1

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Some good information in this article. He gives his opinion on the adequate dose of supplements, but it's based on a sh1t ton of research...which, I myself, don't have the time to do
This was a really good read bro. I appreciate you sharing. 👍
 
gphagan1

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The older you get the harder it is for your body to turn coQ10 into Ubiquinol, so your better off taking ubiquinol as it's the active form of coQ10
Exactly what I just read in that article. I already take a lot of good supplements, but after reading that article I’m definitely adding Ubiquinol and some of the others that I haven’t been taking.
 
Smont

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I like watching mpmd because he does a lot of the research for you, but I feel like he takes way too much credit for other people's work. 99.9% of the information he shares is not his own but he only gives credit to his sources once in a while.
 
Smont

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It's honestly not even about specifically naming study's and whatnot, it's more about when he directly takes someone else info and spews it like it's his own. I've seen a lot of stuff from mpmd that I'm 10,000 percent sure he took from victor black
 
Smont

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By the way, if you haven't heard of victor black look him up, he's a bit of a crybaby online but his information is too notch
 
manifesto

manifesto

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By the way, if you haven't heard of victor black look him up, he's a bit of a crybaby online but his information is too notch
I'll check him out. I'm always open to more information. I just have to be careful to not order every health supp I read about lol.. my wife already thinks I'm crazy with the amount of Amazon boxes I get....

But, like I always tell her...I dont spend money on other frivolous **** like other people...ive had the same 2 pair of jeans for like 5 years...lol
 

BBiceps

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I'll check him out. I'm always open to more information. I just have to be careful to not order every health supp I read about lol.. my wife already thinks I'm crazy with the amount of Amazon boxes I get....

But, like I always tell her...I dont spend money on other frivolous **** like other people...ive had the same 2 pair of jeans for like 5 years...lol
lol, Amazon is the best and the worst at the same time 😂

But yeah, I comparing Ubiquinol prices on Amazon right now… 😬
 

Jeremyk1

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I'll check him out. I'm always open to more information. I just have to be careful to not order every health supp I read about lol.. my wife already thinks I'm crazy with the amount of Amazon boxes I get....

But, like I always tell her...I dont spend money on other frivolous **** like other people...ive had the same 2 pair of jeans for like 5 years...lol
I literally still wait for my mom to get me new jeans for Christmas. I got better things to spend money on!
 
Smont

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I'll check him out. I'm always open to more information. I just have to be careful to not order every health supp I read about lol.. my wife already thinks I'm crazy with the amount of Amazon boxes I get....

But, like I always tell her...I dont spend money on other frivolous **** like other people...ive had the same 2 pair of jeans for like 5 years...lol
I'm the same way, I won't spend $100 on shoes or clothes unless it's necessary, but il drop $300 on a random supplement or anabolics order like it's nothing. I actually bought 2 new pairs of jeans back in November for the first time in God knows how long, but I was at the end of my diet and my waist was down like 4 inches and my belts were all too big so I didn't have a choice anymore lol
 
manifesto

manifesto

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Just got back my sensitive E2 blood results. The total was 26, right in range.

This was in the trough, on 400 test cyp and 400 primo....no AI.

I have since upped dose to 500 test, 600 primo, but I thought that this is a clear example of how efficient DHT derivatives like primo are in preventing aromatization.
 
manifesto

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Screenshot_20220203-042402_DuckDuckGo.jpg
 
gphagan1

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Yeah Primo and Mast both seem fairly efficient at keeping estrogen down.
 
manifesto

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If it stays that low, I may have to increase my test ;)
 
gphagan1

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Yeah I would see how you do at 500, because it should go up some with that. That is another benefit with Primo and Mast, that I’ve never needed an AI on those 2.
 
manifesto

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Yeah I would see how you do at 500, because it should go up some with that. That is another benefit with Primo and Mast, that I’ve never needed an AI on those 2.
Exactly...and the awesome thing is the lipid profile should remain pretty good....unlike running an AI through the cycle
 
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