Creatinol o phosphate

[JeremyNG25]

So this has been a staple of mine for a long time. Slowly but surely it seems every company that was selling it has phased it out of their inventory. SNS, Livelong Nutrition, bulk supplements, etc. Just like that and it’s gone. I feel like the same thing happened to proprionyl l carnitine. Why does this happen? Do people not like COP? This happens all too often. I’ll have a staple supplement I use for years and then boom like magic it’s out of stock everywhere and it never returns.

 

[sns8778]

So this has been a staple of mine for a long time. Slowly but surely it seems every company that was selling it has phased it out of their inventory. SNS, Livelong Nutrition, bulk supplements, etc. Just like that and it’s gone. I feel like the same thing happened to proprionyl l carnitine. Why does this happen? Do people not like COP? This happens all too often. I’ll have a staple supplement I use for years and then boom like magic it’s out of stock everywhere and it never returns.

We do always take inquiries seriously as to what people want and you're welcome to ask for or about them in the yearly 'Tell Us What You Want' threads. I'm getting ready to start the 2023 version of that thread tonight or tomorrow, so if you think about it when you see the thread, mention it in there.

I'm always glad to answer questions anywhere, but the reason I encourage people to mention things in that thread too is to see if other people want it too.

It's ironic that you mentioned this happening with Creatinol O Phosphate Capsules and PLCAR because we did used to make both and the reason that we discontinued them was because we literally couldn't hardly give them away. We've had a few experiences over the 18 years of things that didn't sell as well as we hoped, but those were two of the only ones I can say that we really ever lost our butts on - as in I remember selling them to NP back in the day for 2.50 to 3.00 each just to have them try to blow thru them at 5 to 10 bucks a bottle and then we still got stuck with a lot that expired.

I really do like Creatinol O Phosphate myself but I think one of the big issues that led to it not selling was that people just assumed by the name that it was creatine. I had wrote this super detailed write up explaining it and people still thought it was creatine; then I switched the write up to basically - hello, this isn't creatine, its different and great haha - and it still didn't sell.

I would be open to bringing it back if there was enough interest in it for us to sell thru even a small batch.

Another thing though now days is the price. Because of the supply chain issues and hardly any raw material suppliers making it now, it would be more expensive (not major, but a few bucks more). I have the updated pricing because I got it last Thursday actually bc I was thinking of using it in an endurance formula we plan to do later this year.

SNS Creatinol O Phosphate caps were 90 caps @ 500 mg. per capsule when we used to make it.

If I were to make it now, I would probably do a 120 capsule size at either 500 mg. or 750 mg.; that's if 750 mg. would fit in a capsule because the original material was very fluffy which is why we went with 500 mg.

Realistically, to do that it would have to sell for around 29.99 for a 120 capsule.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Oh, and how much per day do you use?

 

[sns8778]

Oh, and another I feel your pain on liking stuff that's disco'd, we used to make Glucuronolactone capsules and I absolutely loved that product because I liked adding it to basically any other energy drink or ingredients that I took; but it just didn't sell well enough to continue making it by the time we stopped.

 

[JeremyNG25]

We do always take inquiries seriously as to what people want and you're welcome to ask for or about them in the yearly 'Tell Us What You Want' threads. I'm getting ready to start the 2023 version of that thread tonight or tomorrow, so if you think about it when you see the thread, mention it in there.

I'm always glad to answer questions anywhere, but the reason I encourage people to mention things in that thread too is to see if other people want it too.

It's ironic that you mentioned this happening with Creatinol O Phosphate Capsules and PLCAR because we did used to make both and the reason that we discontinued them was because we literally couldn't hardly give them away. We've had a few experiences over the 18 years of things that didn't sell as well as we hoped, but those were two of the only ones I can say that we really ever lost our butts on - as in I remember selling them to NP back in the day for 2.50 to 3.00 each just to have them try to blow thru them at 5 to 10 bucks a bottle and then we still got stuck with a lot that expired.

I really do like Creatinol O Phosphate myself but I think one of the big issues that led to it not selling was that people just assumed by the name that it was creatine. I had wrote this super detailed write up explaining it and people still thought it was creatine; then I switched the write up to basically - hello, this isn't creatine, its different and great haha - and it still didn't sell.

I would be open to bringing it back if there was enough interest in it for us to sell thru even a small batch.

Another thing though now days is the price. Because of the supply chain issues and hardly any raw material suppliers making it now, it would be more expensive (not major, but a few bucks more). I have the updated pricing because I got it last Thursday actually bc I was thinking of using it in an endurance formula we plan to do later this year.

SNS Creatinol O Phosphate caps were 90 caps @ 500 mg. per capsule when we used to make it.

If I were to make it now, I would probably do a 120 capsule size at either 500 mg. or 750 mg.; that's if 750 mg. would fit in a capsule because the original material was very fluffy which is why we went with 500 mg.

Realistically, to do that it would have to sell for around 29.99 for a 120 capsule.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Oh, and how much per day do you use?

Thanks for replying. I was using 2-3 grams daily for years. I used to buy the bulk bags of the SNS COP. Honestly when you guys stopped making it, it wasn’t the biggest deal because it was at least still available. In the last month or so multiple companies just dropped it all at the same time though. It’s very odd. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence or what

 

[Smont]

I never bought or even looked into this stuff because I always thought it was just another type of creatine and I just stick with monohydrate. It wasn't till about a week or 2 ago I happened to read a old 2014 article on this stuff and it sounds like it would be fantastic for endurance training, strong man, crossfire, fighters ect.

I actually looked for this stuff shortly after and I couldn't find it either

 

[aloosecannon]

I was disappointed to see COP go away, but not surprised. I knew not many people used it. I was taking 3 grams a day. Great for endurance sports.

 

[sns8778]

Thanks for replying. I was using 2-3 grams daily for years. I used to buy the bulk bags of the SNS COP. Honestly when you guys stopped making it, it wasn’t the biggest deal because it was at least still available. In the last month or so multiple companies just dropped it all at the same time though. It’s very odd. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence or what

I think the reason you saw it go away from a lot of companies at once is that due to lack of demand for it, some of the major raw material suppliers stopped making it which in turn make the costs go up on it. And since it already wasn't a great seller, companies just decided to stop.

It's a great ingredient but just never got the recognition it deserved in my opinion.

 

[sns8778]

I was disappointed to see COP go away, but not surprised. I knew not many people used it. I was taking 3 grams a day. Great for endurance sports.

It is definitely a great endurance ingredient.

I was looking at doing an endurance specific product later this year - one that could be a daily use supplement for people that want to improve their overall cardiovascular and muscular endurance and that's why last week I'd just requested updated pricing on it.

I would be open to doing a small run of the capsules if enough people are interested; and there's a good chance it will be included in the endurance formula later this year, if we decide to do one.

 

[sns8778]

I never bought or even looked into this stuff because I always thought it was just another type of creatine and I just stick with monohydrate. It wasn't till about a week or 2 ago I happened to read a old 2014 article on this stuff and it sounds like it would be fantastic for endurance training, strong man, crossfire, fighters ect.

I actually looked for this stuff shortly after and I couldn't find it either

Yeah, that was one of the main reasons I think that the ingredient never caught up was because a lot of people just made that assumption. But it is a great ingredients and would be great for all of the things that you mentioned there.

 

[Smont]

Yeah, that was one of the main reasons I think that the ingredient never caught up was because a lot of people just made that assumption. But it is a great ingredients and would be great for all of the things that you mentioned there.

I do a lot of boxing and grappling, more so boxing but if you do a small batch you can count me in. IL even pre order and run a log if you want.

1. I can benefit from a product like that and it will give me a chance to try that specific ingredient.

2. Running a log always makes me motivated so it's a win win.

I was also wondering. Possibly for your own benefit is there any products you have now that you could reformulate and make better by adding that ingredient? I'm sure it would be a good addition to a pre workout or a fat burner. Obviously it would have to be cost-effective for you

 

[sns8778]

I do a lot of boxing and grappling, more so boxing but if you do a small batch you can count me in. IL even pre order and run a log if you want.

1. I can benefit from a product like that and it will give me a chance to try that specific ingredient.

2. Running a log always makes me motivated so it's a win win.

I was also wondering. Possibly for your own benefit is there any products you have now that you could reformulate and make better by adding that ingredient? I'm sure it would be a good addition to a pre workout or a fat burner. Obviously it would have to be cost-effective for you

Thank you. I'll definitely keep that in mind and let you know.

The thought is doing a daily use product for people that endurance is important for them. A lot of ingredients are used in pre-workout or pre-athletic type products for people like this, but in reality the actual studies for most of them need to be used daily for best results. So that was the goal; one could almost thing of it as a daily use ergogenic but specific to endurance.

No, there are no products that we could reformulate to include this where it would make sense.
- Creatinol O Phosphate being used in a pre-workout is really like creatine or beta alanine being thrown over in one in the sense that its just there as a sales pitch bc they need to be taken daily for best results.
- Sometimes ingredients do make sense to be included for name recognition and sales purposes, but this ingredient isn't really popular or well-known and to add it at an effective dose would raise the cost of a product like that quite a bit; so it would probably deter people rather than help.
- Due to the daily dosage being 2 to 3 grams, it would add so many capsules to a fat loss formula that I think that would deter people.
- Plus you have the problem that a lot of people do think its creatine so you alienate the people that don't want to take additional creatine - in that even though they aren't, they may dismiss the product bc of assuming they are.

I really do want to do the endurance product which would likely include it; I'm just not sure how well it would sell. That's one that I may do a thread on at some point to see how many people would really be interested in and maybe even give people the ability to pre-purchase at a discount just to make sure we could sell enough to make it worth doing an initial run of it.

I'm definitely open to doing Creatinol O Phosphate capsules again if enough people are interested in them. My worry is that we lost money on them before and basically were just selling thru them to get rid of them before they expired.

 

[aaronuconn]

Would love to see COP or PLCAR in an SNS formula in the future. COP in a pre workout, PLCAR in a fat loss product. Maybe a powdered fat loss product since PLCAR would take up a ton of capsule space… and you already have great non stim fat loss options

 

[Ape McGrapes]

I liked COP back in the day when I used to make my own PWO.

There seemed to have been a disinformation campaign at some point where people were claiming that "Oral didn't work/give the same results as the injectable form" and complaing that it didn't 100% live up to the hype Patrick Arnold's original write up gave it.

Again; I enjoyed COP and have never understood the bandwagon love hate that ingredients go through.

 

[sns8778]

Would love to see COP or PLCAR in an SNS formula in the future. COP in a pre workout, PLCAR in a fat loss product. Maybe a powdered fat loss product since PLCAR would take up a ton of capsule space… and you already have great non stim fat loss options

PLCAR-500 was a great example of a product that people said they wanted but very few people actually ever bought but then very vocally complained about when we discontinued; and we actually did bring it back because of people complaining that we stopped and promising they'd buy it if we brought it back - and yeah, we lost money on that one both times so the odds of that one ever happening again is pretty slim.

Also, contract manufacturers hate PLCAR because it sticks to equipment and makes it a nightmare to run, so its not something that is conducive to running a small run of because no one would want to make it. And bc of those properties, that's the same reason that its a clumping disaster waiting to happen in a powder.

Creatinol O Phosphate really needs to be used daily for best results. That's why I could see using it in the endurance based product I mentioned, because that would be a product that would be used daily by people that want increased endurance and then could be doubled up on workout days. I've the the formula pretty much finalized on that for over a year, I just am not sure how well it will sell, but was thinking of taking a chance on it and doing one flavor it in later in the year and seeing how it goes and if it does well, adding more flavors.

As for using COP in a pre-workout, the reasons I wouldn't want to do that are:
- It needs to be used daily for best results.
- It is a pretty expensive ingredient dose per dose to include in a pre-workout - for example, adding 2 grams of COP would be more expensive than 3 grams of L-Citrulline or Citrulline Malate.
- Sometimes ingredients are added to pre-workouts for name recognition but in this case, it really doesn't have much in the way of name recognition and the fact that so many people confuse it with Creatine could actually be detrimental to putting it in there.

I have been considering doing a fat loss powder though - but PLCAR won't be in it lol.

 

[sns8778]

I liked COP back in the day when I used to make my own PWO.

There seemed to have been a disinformation campaign at some point where people were claiming that "Oral didn't work/give the same results as the injectable form" and complaing that it didn't 100% live up to the hype Patrick Arnold's original write up gave it.

Again; I enjoyed COP and have never understood the bandwagon love hate that ingredients go through.

You are absolutely correct about the disinformation campaign on it and there was more than one - there were the ones that said that it didn't live up to his claims, but then there was also him saying that basically no one else's besides his was any good - so the people that listened to everything he said only bought his and the people that didn't like him didn't buy it at all because they believed he overhyped it. Combine that with so many confusing it for Creatine and it was just doomed.

I agree about the bandwagon thing too - I always hate when things go through spells like that.
A great example of that is NAC; I remember when a lot of people on here went through their kick bashing NAC like it was the devil but then as soon as the FDA said something against it and were going to remove it from the market, some of the same people acted like it was the greatest thing in the world and couldn't live without it.

It's like how I've never completely understood the concept of why a lot of people will use a product and love it but then just randomly decide to try something else because it newer or more hyped. I'm all about trying new products or new ingredients, but I mean the people that will be like - yeah, ____ worked great for me and I feel wonderful on it but product ____ has a cool label or a Cherry Slush flavor (but next to no active ingredients) so I'm going to try that lol.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Completely forgot about PA's being the only COP that worked. What a strange industry.

 

[sns8778]

Completely forgot about PA's being the only COP that worked. What a strange industry.

Agreed. And yep, that was an odd one - I remember some of his followers even going as far as to say it didn't matter about independent lab tests, only his worked. It was like - seriously guys, wtf?

Creatinol O Phosphate is like that proverbial little guy just trying to do good and help everyone and both sides are kicking the crap out of him lol

 

[alvin1]

Is thus better than peak 02 for endurance?

 

[aaronuconn]

Is thus better than peak 02 for endurance?

I like Peak02 more

 

[aaronuconn]

And I think Peak02 has better human data

 

[sns8778]

Is thus better than peak 02 for endurance?

No, I don't thinks so at all. I think it may be a good addition in a formula on top of PEAK02 but definitely not in place of PEAK02.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Agreed. And yep, that was an odd one - I remember some of his followers even going as far as to say it didn't matter about independent lab tests, only his worked. It was like - seriously guys, wtf?

Creatinol O Phosphate is like that proverbial little guy just trying to do good and help everyone and both sides are kicking the crap out of him lol

PA might have done the same with his DAA product. It was a better form, or only form that worked etc.

How about some COP in the Daily Ergogenic.

 

[sns8778]

PA might have done the same with his DAA product. It was a better form, or only form that worked etc.

How about some COP in the Daily Ergogenic.

I think he did try that too with the DAA at the beginning.

The challenge with Daily Gains (the daily use ergogenic) was formulating a product with ingredients that people should use daily for best results but having to be very careful to make sure that it could be sold at a certain price point. There were so many things that I wanted to add in there that didn't wind up in the final version of it because it just unfortunately would have wound up at such a high price that no one would have bought it. I had even mentioned maybe cutting down to 20 servings or doing a 20 serving/40 serving type of thing where people took 2 servings on workout days and 1 serving on non-workout days in order to fit more ingredients in it but it seemed like everyone wanted this to be a month supply and some people said they'd pay more for it to be - but as you know, what people say they'll buy and what they actually do are often very different; and with this particular category, the reason more companies don't do one is bc its always been a traditionally low selling category, even though it shouldn't be.

I had been thinking of doing basically an endurance equivalent to a Daily Gains type of product that would be more geared towards endurance athletes anyway and that's the one that I was thinking of using COP in.

 

[jh1]

No, I don't thinks so at all. I think it may be a good addition in a formula on top of PEAK02 but definitely not in place of PEAK02.

PEAKO2 and COP is a fantastic combo. I definitely enjoy COP solo as well.....didn't realize that you had stopped producing it. I'll have to ration my remaining supply

 

[sns8778]

PEAKO2 and COP is a fantastic combo. I definitely enjoy COP solo as well.....didn't realize that you had stopped producing it. I'll have to ration my remaining supply

We haven't made it in a long time - our last thing with it was doing the 450 cap bags and we were doing those just to get rid of it because it wasn't selling at all. We lost a lot of money on those and the product in general.

I would be willing to do a small run of it if enough people want it, but if we did one, we don't have to make much on it but would need to make a fair margin and at least not lose on it, so you'd be looking at probably 29.99 ish for 120 capsules (previous was 90 caps) and maybe as low as 23/24 at sale times.

 

[LeanEngineer]

And I think Peak02 has better human data

Agreed. A lot more companies are carrying peak02 as a stand a lone product as well.

 

[Jeremyk1]

PA might have done the same with his DAA product. It was a better form, or only form that worked etc.

How about some COP in the Daily Ergogenic.

That one I think was a little more justified though. For one thing, as I recall, most studies showing positive effects from DAA used sodium d aspartate. Plain DAA is poorly soluble. PA’s used calcium d aspartate which should have superior solubility. It also included something else (sarcosine maybe?) that was supposed to help the activation of the receptor it targets. I think the NMDA receptor. So it should have, in theory, outperformed other DAA supps.

 

[sns8778]

That one I think was a little more justified though. For one thing, as I recall, most studies showing positive effects from DAA used sodium d aspartate. Plain DAA is poorly soluble. PA’s used calcium d aspartate which should have superior solubility. It also included something else (sarcosine maybe?) that was supposed to help the activation of the receptor it targets. I think the NMDA receptor. So it should have, in theory, outperformed other DAA supps.

At the time though, most of the supplements coming out were using Sodium DAA, which was the type used in the studies.

I think its fine if one wants to tout a unique form that they are using, but it went way too far - in bashing the type that was actually being used in the studies and some of his followers claimed that he was the only person that had access to real DAA at all (wtf?) - the issues wasn't so much PA, it was that PA would say something and then some of his fans would take it and just go almost nutso conspiracy theory with it. I remember one of his guys saying that if COP didn't do a certain thing in water (I don't remember what) that it wasn't real COP - wtf?.... If an independent lab report verifies it was COP then it was COP.

 

[Jeremyk1]

At the time though, most of the supplements coming out were using Sodium DAA, which was the type used in the studies.

I think its fine if one wants to tout a unique form that they are using, but it went way too far - in bashing the type that was actually being used in the studies and some of his followers claimed that he was the only person that had access to real DAA at all (wtf?) - the issues wasn't so much PA, it was that PA would say something and then some of his fans would take it and just go almost nutso conspiracy theory with it. I remember one of his guys saying that if COP didn't do a certain thing in water (I don't remember what) that it wasn't real COP - wtf?.... If an independent lab report verifies it was COP then it was COP.

Oh I must not have caught all that drama. With COP, I believe it was mixing with baking soda. “Real” COP should fizz violently when mixed with baking soda. But yeah I remember some folks saying that lots of things will do that (literally anything acidic) and someone pointed out it was a little ironic that PA’s stuff was an effervescent formula, so his fizzed without mixing.

 

[N2ofusion]

I remember DPS giving it away, $2.99 a bottle or so when I bought it.

Yeah, cool product with tough economics.

 

[Shumingchen]

I know there is a Chinese factory that has been producing COP, but they mostly sell it to Europe rather than North America.
It is possible that the United States needs to impose tariffs on imports from China.

 

[Shumingchen]

So this has been a staple of mine for a long time. Slowly but surely it seems every company that was selling it has phased it out of their inventory. SNS, Livelong Nutrition, bulk supplements, etc. Just like that and it’s gone. I feel like the same thing happened to proprionyl l carnitine. Why does this happen? Do people not like COP? This happens all too often. I’ll have a staple supplement I use for years and then boom like magic it’s out of stock everywhere and it never returns.

I know there is a Chinese factory that has been producing COP, but they mostly sell it to Europe rather than North America.
It is possible that the United States needs to impose tariffs on imports from China.

 

[djbombsquad]

Good idea .