Countering lethargy/weak boners on LGD?

dronkey

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Forewarning: No bloods (my state does not have anon bloods

I took LGD + MK667 (massgh) at 4/8/8 for the LGD and 10/20/20 for the MK667 and got through about 3.5 weeks of the cycle before I decided to cut it short and PCT with DAA 3g and Torem 60/30. I also took 25mg arimistane just in case to prevent possible estro sides.

I noticed great strength and weight gain on-cycle after about a week and a half. The MK shot my appetite through the roof - I was literally insatiable the entire time. I definitely felt the bloat and held on to a ton of water, as well as improved sleep. I noticed no sides from the LGD aside from maybe one or two minor pimples, which is not altogether uncommon in one's mid-twenties.

It wasn't until the third week that I noticed pretty severe lethargy, so much so that I found it difficult to get up and go to work or do much of anything other than sit on the couch, eat, play games, and lift once a day. Around this time, I also noticed a drop in libido (which had been even higher than normal during weeks 1-2), weak boners, and about 15-20% smaller nuts. I gained about 6 pounds and put 15-30 pounds on all of my main lifts. I seem to have kept this strength and weight for the most part, and I feel fine after the mini-pct. It's been about a month since I finished the cycle, and I'd like to try it again in about a week.

I have no concerns about the legitimacy of the LGD as I haven't heard anything negative about OL UK and my experience coheres with that of others who have logged legit LGD - I just suspect that I've always been plagued with fairly low test (impossible to say without bloods, obviously) and the mild suppression from the LGD brought it to a noticeable level. This is just a theory based on my experience.

I've read plenty and I'm fully aware that some people run LGD for 8 weeks with no PCT (or even longer), feel great, and have no sides. I'd rather be safe than sorry and have torem on hand and arimistane. Also because it's relevant, training = westside and diet = 3k-4k cals/day on cycle.

With all of that said, my question is this: how can I mitigate the suppression effects that I noticed from this first cycle so that I can do a longer 6-8 week cycle next time? I'm aware that I could run a test base to achieve this, but I won't pin. I'm considering running transdermal trest, but I'm wary of its effectiveness considering it's methylated and requires liver care, an AI, heavier PCT, ect. I'm not opposed to it, I just want to make the best-informed decision. I've read that 4-andro/dermacrine are ineffective. I also have a bunch of osta on hand that I haven't tried - I assume it's going to have a lesser suppressive effect but also lesser efficacy. I can run ECY stack to combat the lethargy and libido, but that'll negatively affect my appetite and thusly gains.

Thanks in advance for the replies.

tl;dr felt lethargy and weak boners on LGD/MK667, cut first cycle short because of it. Want to run longer 6-8 week cycle with strong boners, won't pin test or take ED drugs...what do?
 

dronkey

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Will it have a positive effect on the erections or just lethargy?
 
Toren

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Your lethargy was most likely from the MK-677, but it is quite possible that LGD was a contributing factor. You need to run a 'Test" base next time.

Running 8 weeks of LGD without a proper PCT is foolish. I am not sure who is recommending that on the internet. Make sure you are well-covered in this area with a full SERM PCT.

Run Dermacrine as a base next time. Start @ 2 pumps ED and adjust up if necessary. I am running LGD/MK-677 right now and I feel great on it. I have had zero lethargy whatsoever. I am also running 2 pumps ED of Dermacrine but I am quite confident that I could have gone without it. I just seem to respond pretty well to this stuff (LGD/MK-677). Libido and energy is great.

I would also add 100-200mcg (everday) of Huperzine-A to the mix. It can help with energy and focus. Dermacrine will help fight mental lethargy as well. You could also just run 4-Andro as your base. It should be a little bit less estrogenic than Dermacrine and a bit better for your libido as well. Epi-Andro and 4-Andro would also be a very good base (stacked).
 
Toren

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Will it have a positive effect on the erections or just lethargy?
It can help with both but for some it doesn't do as much in the sex department. In that case, 4-Andro and Epi-Andro is your potion.
 

dronkey

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I'll be running torem, arimistane & DAA pct. May pick up some exem just to be safe and have on hand.

What kind of sides can I expect with the dermacrine - will it suppress me further than just the lgd would have itself? Not that that's a big deal since I'll be doing PCT. But I don't really want to stack tons of anabolics, I'm looking for the lightest thing to stack to mitigate the annoying sides I experiences. Personal choice... I'd like to start slow. Trest seems a bit more intense. I'll probably try 2 pumps of dermacrine - should I start it from the beginning of the cycle or just a few weeks in once I start feeling suppressed?
 
Toren

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I'll be running torem, arimistane & DAA pct. May pick up some exem just to be safe and have on hand.

What kind of sides can I expect with the dermacrine - will it suppress me further than just the lgd would have itself? Not that that's a big deal since I'll be doing PCT. But I don't really want to stack tons of anabolics, I'm looking for the lightest thing to stack to mitigate the annoying sides I experiences. Personal choice... I'd like to start slow. Trest seems a bit more intense. I'll probably try 2 pumps of dermacrine - should I start it from the beginning of the cycle or just a few weeks in once I start feeling suppressed?
I have used Dermacrine a few times now and I have never noticed any sides. I have also never used more than 4 pumps ED as more is not necessarily better with this stuff. The conversion to Test is fairly low afterall. The neuro-stimulatory effects of Dermacrine are where it shines best. Dermacrine will be a bit supressive but I would not worry about it on cycle. I would start at 2 pumps ED right from the get go. I don't understand people waiting to feel like crap befor starting to use their 'base' product. If you don't experience lethargy, stick to 2 pumps ED as there is no need to increase dosage in that case. If you do experience lethargy a bit, bump to 3 pumps ED for 5 days and see where you are at. Adjust as necessary going forward. I have never needed to go above 4 pumps.

Trest is the best TD base you will find right now but I would not recommend it to the inexperienced.

I would make sure to have a bottle of exemestane on hand when running anything hormonal. Stuff happpens sometimes and it is best to have and not need.
 
yates84

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I'm riding with Toren on this one, mk677 is probably ly a big contributing factor to your lethargy. Dermacrine is a great option to counteract this. You could go even further and do epiandro and 4 andro which will provide a great base. Trest is definitely your best option but is not something to play with without some experience with hormonals. Epiandro should definitely help your erections situation as well. If you needed, you could always add some tadalifil.
 
K_pem

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Currently rounding my 3rd week on Lgd/MK at 8mg/20mg and I'm not experiencing any lethargy at all, and deffinitely not experiencing any libido issues(if anything it's gotten better haha) however I'm also considering either A. Bumping to 12mg/30mg or B. Adding Trest or 1/4/epi andro PH to the mix for 4-6 more weeks.

I feel great now though, if I add the PH I'll include Arimicare pro to the cycle.

OP, when are/were you dosing your mass GH??
 
Kickstart7

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Well OP it's a common misconception that LGD is "mildly suppressive" it is very suppressive to your test levels at just 1 mg. I'm using 8 right now and libido is great here in week 5. I'm not sure why libido is suffering as the clinical tests revealed it did not significantly effect free test much at all which can be a factor. Also it's lowers estrogen in most cases. I've noticed with aching joint pain. I need bloods to prove this. Maybe the combination of arimistane and lgd shot your estrogen down and caused your weak erections . Also it could just be an addition to maybe a prior hormonal imbalances. But after typing this I realized you have some good knowledgable guys in here giving u good info , I'd take this into consideration along with their ideas.
 

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Epiandro by itself? What dosage / did you get any sides?
 

dronkey

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OP, when are/were you dosing your mass GH??
I was dosing one cap preworkout and one cap before bed. AFAIK dosing 12 instead of 8mg won't have a significant difference and the studied dose of MK is 20mg so it's probably not necessary unless your weight is higher. I may stick with one cap this time - I weigh about 175.

I want to keep my sides and ancillaries to a minimum so I'm probably not looking to go with trest and will try either dermacrine or epiandro.
 

dronkey

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Well OP it's a common misconception that LGD is "mildly suppressive" it is very suppressive to your test levels at just 1 mg. I'm using 8 right now and libido is great here in week 5. I'm not sure why libido is suffering as the clinical tests revealed it did not significantly effect free test much at all which can be a factor. Also it's lowers estrogen in most cases. I've noticed with aching joint pain. I need bloods to prove this. Maybe the combination of arimistane and lgd shot your estrogen down and caused your weak erections . Also it could just be an addition to maybe a prior hormonal imbalances. But after typing this I realized you have some good knowledgable guys in here giving u good info , I'd take this into consideration along with their ideas.
Thanks for the input - you may be right about the low estro. I didn't know LGD lowered estro, I hadn't seen that in any studies. I didn't feel any achy joints or other indicators of low estro (I definitely was bloated and not dried out). This was my first cycle so I don't think I did anything to wreck my HPTA prior.

I was however taking a half dose of ar1macarepro for the arimistane, OL hydro 3, Arachidonic Acid, Phosphatidic Acid, and creatine/beta alanine.

Perhaps this time I'll skip the arimistane on cycle, add epiandro or dermacrine (which one is gentler?) and grab exem to have on hand in case I start seeing gyno symptoms.
 

dronkey

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I'm huge fan of Epiandro as a base. I've used it for 2 LGD cycles, and 2 Osta cycles and it delivers every time...wink wink nudge nudge.
The fact that I could take epiandro orally is appealing.. I'm mildly concerned about transferring a transdermal to my lady.
 
yates84

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The fact that I could take epiandro orally is appealing.. I'm mildly concerned about transferring a transdermal to my lady.
Epiandro with cyclodextrin complex is good around 600mg. Unenhanced epiandro should be ran at 900mg and up.
 
K_pem

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OP I see no reason to split your doses that way, both ingredients have a long enough half life and no known acute effects that would be beneficial taken pre workout, if you do decide to run again dose all at once either before bed or first thing in the AM.

I've been dosing 2caps 8mg lgd/20mg MK before bed for 3 weeks now and it's definitely the way to go for improving sleep and I feel more energized throughout the day because of it.

I can't speak on the test bases as I have little experience with them but I've been running a natty test booster thus far and as mentioned I think I will be adding something, so I'll let you know at that point.
 
mountainman33

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I use 600 mgs. of Androvar. 300 was an OK starting point but really noticed more benefit at 600.
 

dronkey

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OP I see no reason to split your doses that way, both ingredients have a long enough half life and no known acute effects that would be beneficial taken pre workout, if you do decide to run again dose all at once either before bed or first thing in the AM.

I've been dosing 2caps 8mg lgd/20mg MK before bed for 3 weeks now and it's definitely the way to go for improving sleep and I feel more energized throughout the day because of it.

I can't speak on the test bases as I have little experience with them but I've been running a natty test booster thus far and as mentioned I think I will be adding something, so I'll let you know at that point.
Yeah, I know about the half life. I was dosing one cap at night but decided to start dosing pwo as well... Placebo effect I guess, the mental boost of putting something anabolic in my body right before a training session. Not because o any science lol. Plus the hunger from the MK would kick in soon as my workout finished.
 
yates84

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yates84

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About 172. Weight class sport.
Yeah, you're good following that protocol. You'd have to be pretty heavy to need higher doses.
 

dronkey

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Yeah, you're good following that protocol. You'd have to be pretty heavy to need higher doses.
I was wondering if I needed less. Minimum effective dose and everything. Trying to go up a weight class in the next few months, about 15-20lbs.
 
ryclegman

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I'd hop on some HCG just to get your balls pumping test again. 250IU x2 a week. sounds like you are suppressed. just my .02
 
yates84

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I was wondering if I needed less. Minimum effective dose and everything. Trying to go up a weight class in the next few months, about 15-20lbs.
Nah, you're good. I weigh about the same as you and 600mg was perfect for me. You could start lower and taper up until you find your sweet spot but it will probably be 500 to 600mg.
 

dronkey

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Nah, you're good. I weigh about the same as you and 600mg was perfect for me. You could start lower and taper up until you find your sweet spot but it will probably be 500 to 600mg.
Thanks Yates, I think I'll do that.
 

dronkey

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Nah, you're good. I weigh about the same as you and 600mg was perfect for me. You could start lower and taper up until you find your sweet spot but it will probably be 500 to 600mg.
Any preferred brands? Doesn't seem like OL carries epiandro
 
yates84

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Any preferred brands? Doesn't seem like OL carries epiandro
Its on the way bro! Should be a few more weeks before we release our andro line. If you can't wait that long then I would grab some alpha gainz stano, dosing and price are pretty solid.
 
Matthandyo

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Its on the way bro! Should be a few more weeks before we release our andro line. If you can't wait that long then I would grab some alpha gainz stano, dosing and price are pretty solid.
Are you guys going to be having anything that would be a solid test base?
 
yates84

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delsolrob

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I'm with yates84, the Alpha Stano from Alpha Gainz...the epiandrosterone cyclodextrin is the best non-transdermal epiandro I've used.
 

dronkey

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I'm with yates84, the Alpha Stano from Alpha Gainz...the epiandrosterone cyclodextrin is the best non-transdermal epiandro I've used.
Damn. I got antsy and just ordered dermacrine because I wasn't thrilled about the idea of getting dht blocking shampoo and couldn't find any reasonably dosed oral epiandro supps. Wish I'd have waited a couple of days for your replies. I may grab some epiandro anyway.. Any issue stacking it with dermacrine? The dermacrine hasnt come in yet and I started my cycle a few days ago. As a side note, lgd/mk677 aka mass gh makes me blow up like a balloon. I gain two pounds a day for like 4-5 days before it levels off and before I see any strength or physique changes other than insane bloat. It's pretty...interesting
 

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Any idea how the OL pricing will compare? 60 bucks would put the epiandro at by far the most expensive piece of my cycle. Dermacrine was a lot cheaper.
 
yates84

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Damn. I got antsy and just ordered dermacrine because I wasn't thrilled about the idea of getting dht blocking shampoo and couldn't find any reasonably dosed oral epiandro supps. Wish I'd have waited a couple of days for your replies. I may grab some epiandro anyway.. Any issue stacking it with dermacrine? The dermacrine hasnt come in yet and I started my cycle a few days ago. As a side note, lgd/mk677 aka mass gh makes me blow up like a balloon. I gain two pounds a day for like 4-5 days before it levels off and before I see any strength or physique changes other than insane bloat. It's pretty...interesting
Epiandro will stack nicely with dermacrine, should dry you out pretty good and possibly keep some of that bloat off of you.
 
yates84

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Any idea how the OL pricing will compare? 60 bucks would put the epiandro at by far the most expensive piece of my cycle. Dermacrine was a lot cheaper.
We will be the best deal around :) epiandro from OL will be 250mg per cap and 60 and 90 cap bottles will be available.
 

Dragoninho

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I'd hop on some HCG just to get your balls pumping test again. 250IU x2 a week. sounds like you are suppressed. just my .02
I second the HCG part. If I should do LGD again I would go with HCG. Didn´t do it last time and the first couple of weeks of PCT was not nice at all. But I stretched my run to 12 weeks on the other hand. 8-10 weeks is enough.

Otherwise. Epiandro and Dermacrine is a great addition to LGD!
 

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Just grabbed some alpha stano. Both should be here this week. What dosing schedule do you recommend yates84? All in am or throughout day? Directions say 3 caps but it looks like each one has 500mg cyclodextrin epiandro? Or perhaps each one has 150mg. Hard to tell from the webpage version of the label.

I'm thinking two to three pumps dermacrine and one serving (1 cap or 3 caps... Will have to look at the bottle when it gets here) epiandro in the AM while dosing my mass gh before bed.

Also will I need an AI stronger than arimistane for dermacrine/epiandro or any other additional on cycle support? If not should I run the arimistane at a low dose or just leave it out unless I start seeing estro sides?
 
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delsolrob

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each cap from Alpha Stano has 150mg of epiandrosterone that is complexed with 350mg of cyclodextrins (total of 500mg).

honestly, I wouldn't even bother with an AI...that's a pretty low dose of dermacrine and the epiandrosterone should help keep things dry.
 
heckler7

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25mg arimistane, dont know if anyone touched on this, but if you are running an AI and your E2 drops too low it will effect your libido, did you expirience any stiff or dry joints
 

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25mg arimistane, dont know if anyone touched on this, but if you are running an AI and your E2 drops too low it will effect your libido, did you expirience any stiff or dry joints
Nope I haven't been running the arimistane this cycle that I started last week but the first cycle I did run it at 25 or 50mg which is pretty low dose for arimistane. I didn't get any dry joints or anything.
 

dronkey

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each cap from Alpha Stano has 150mg of epiandrosterone that is complexed with 350mg of cyclodextrins (total of 500mg).

honestly, I wouldn't even bother with an AI...that's a pretty low dose of dermacrine and the epiandrosterone should help keep things dry.
So 3-4 caps ed in the am or preworkout?
 

dronkey

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We will be the best deal around :) epiandro from OL will be 250mg per cap and 60 and 90 cap bottles will be available.
Any ETA on these bad boys, Yates? My Alpha Stano should be coming in today and at 450mg/ed I'll burn through the bottle in about a month with about 3 weeks left on my lgd/mk667 cycle. Think I'll be able to grab the OL epiandro before I have to buy another bottle of Alpha Stano (if I like it)? Also will it be cyclo'd?
 
alphagainz

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dronkey How's the Alpha Stano treating you?
 

dronkey

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dronkey How's the Alpha Stano treating you?
I have a log up on this board. I haven't yet talked specifically to the alpha stano but since I'm only 2 weeks in, I haven't yet seen any suppression effects and the alpha stano dosed preworkout is great, gives me a bit of increased drive and libido. Very much enjoying it, will be getting another bottle
 
smith_69

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jumping in a little late, but better late then never- I am not questioning the validity of the LG you took or the company. you yourself should know if its working; correction, your lab research animal should as LG should be used for research purposes only. ;o)
I am in my 2nd week of research with liquid LG and so far, so good. everything is up. wont jam the thread up with my stuff, but
just remember bro, LGD is SUPPRESIVE- you might want to consider or have ready a little more pct on hand- just a thought
 

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jumping in a little late, but better late then never- I am not questioning the validity of the LG you took or the company. you yourself should know if its working; correction, your lab research animal should as LG should be used for research purposes only. ;o)
I am in my 2nd week of research with liquid LG and so far, so good. everything is up. wont jam the thread up with my stuff, but
just remember bro, LGD is SUPPRESIVE- you might want to consider or have ready a little more pct on hand- just a thought
Torem, DAA, and ralox on hand. I think that's sufficient
 

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