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Compounds that shouldn’t be in pre-workouts

Didn't know about Niacin blocking lipolysis in adipose tissue. I did know about potential issues around insulin sensitivity, so not sure if related. Also, knew about Choline increasing TMAO--is that that the Alpha-GPC/atherosclerosis link?

I ask because I take relatively high doses of both Choline and Niacin daily.

As for the other stuff, your reasoning appears sound, but is mental focus one factor of a substance being deemed ergogenic? It seems you'd have to consider Huperzine A, Alpha-GPC, and Noopept (perhaps, speculatively) ergogenic.
 
I’ve never liked extended or delayed release caffeine. Like, I’m drinking my shake now, give me the caffeine now dammit! I’ve always assumed it was to lessen the “crash” some get after caffeine consumption, but I don’t know how well that works.


With the ATP supplements, I thought they’re supposed to increase extracellular ATP, which is responsible for the benefits seen. I’m pretty sure I remember the bioavailability is low, but I thought there’s research showing it can hit the bloodstream, but doesn’t enter cells? Am I misremembering? My one experiment with it, I worked at GNC and got a bottle of the stuff from a MuscleTech guy. I took a double dose, alongside a preworkout which also had PeakATP in there, should have been about 1200mg total. After two weeks, the bottle was gone and I never noticed a difference the whole time. I’m not sold on it.
 
Young Gotti said:
Sooo…basically, take caffeine tabs or coffee pre workout
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I think he's just saying they out a lot of **** in preworkouts that is either counterproductive or doesn't help. Dmaa, dmha preworkouts usually work extremely well. As for the noopept I have taken preworkouts that claim to have it and didn't notice a diffrence. Never taken it by itself but kn ow people that like it and say it definatley works. Seems like strongest preworkouts are usually dmaa/dmha, caffeine, Eria jarnesis.
 
Good thread here.. Well at least MuscleTech euphoriq isn't too bad compared to the junk lists here (I do like their paraxanthine caffeine replacement in it just ordered more lol). Although it does seem like most pwo just miss the mark, most all play the same game.
 
I feel as though I have to defend Niacin a little. I didn't know about blocking lipolysis in adipose tissue so I will keep that in mind, but it's also a precursor to NAD+. Not saying it makes that much sense in terms of a preworkout, but there it a reasonable basis for believing it improves energy levels in the long term.

It steals methyl groups, so it should be taken in conjunction with a methyl donor such as Betaine.
 
Irishobrien said:
the reason Creatine “works” is through anaerobic ATP production intracellularly; inside the muscle cell, for our purposes. The rate limiting substrate is not adenosine and so providing it with exogenous ATP doesn’t make a whole lot of sense from a bench perspective

great discussions here. Reminds me of the old bb.com days 😁
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I thought I was sperging out with my level of research on nutraceuticals and then I come here, talk to you guys and realize I'm nothing more than a lost puppy....
 
Jeremyk1 said:
I’ve never liked extended or delayed release caffeine. Like, I’m drinking my shake now, give me the caffeine now dammit! I’ve always assumed it was to lessen the “crash” some get after caffeine consumption, but I don’t know how well that works.

With the ATP supplements, I thought they’re supposed to increase extracellular ATP, which is responsible for the benefits seen. I’m pretty sure I remember the bioavailability is low, but I thought there’s research showing it can hit the bloodstream, but doesn’t enter cells? Am I misremembering? My one experiment with it, I worked at GNC and got a bottle of the stuff from a MuscleTech guy. I took a double dose, alongside a preworkout which also had PeakATP in there, should have been about 1200mg total. After two weeks, the bottle was gone and I never noticed a difference the whole time. I’m not sold on it.
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I like the combination of regular caffeine and DiCaffeine Malate. People call DiCaffeine Malate an extended release caffeine, which is kind of true, because it does have a fast and slow release - but it's not like some of the supposed staged released caffeine ingredients. I think they have their place in some things, but I think they're over-hyped now. For me, I like somewhat of a slow response aspect like DiCaffeine Malate, but I want most of my energy then, especially if using it pre-workout.

For ATP supplements, the big 2 branded ingredient ones are PeakATP and ElevATP - and I think that both fell victim to being overhyped and people expecting too much out of them. Like you, I tried higher dosages of them and didn't ever 'feel' anything from them. But that doesn't mean that they may not be effective for increasing ATP levels and benefits long term - but that's one reason I've felt like they need to be taken daily for best results, but are commonly added to things like pre's or eaa's when that really isn't the best use for them.
 
I think I missed some discussion in this thread and the original post has now been deleted and some of the replies seem to have possibly been deleted as well.

On the subject matter in general of compounds that shouldn't be in pre-workouts, I think that there are a lot of things that are commonly included in pre-workouts that don't really need to be in there and that are added to products for what I call 'window dressing' - to make people buy them bc they recognize the name, etc.

A lot of the ingredients that are commonly used in pre's won't hurt, but they won't help either - bc they are things that need to be used daily for best results.

Like Beta Alanine - I will not use a pre-workout with it in there bc I hate the tingles. It's not that I dislike Beta Alanine itself, but it needs to be used daily for prolonged periods of time for best results. So if I want to use Beta Alanine, I want to use it as part of my daily use supplement regimen, not in my pre-workout. But brands put it in there for sales purposes because people recognize it on the label and also bc the tingles make some people feel like its working.

Betaine Anhydrous is another one - I love the ingredient itself, but it needs to be used daily for best results.
 
Resolve10 said:
I didn't really agree with all the specifics of the original post, but I thought it looked like an interesting discussion to be had and was a little disappointed to see OP got frustrated running into some of the usual ignorant frustrations nuanced discussions can tend to run into around here. :rolleyes:

I had quite a few thoughts, but oh well I guess.
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I'm not really sure what the original post said or what happened to make him remove it.

Based on some of the things that I think may have been in the original post based on some of the replies - there are some I may agree with and some I may disagree with, but it could have made for an informative and educational discussion.

I thought it had potential to be an interesting discussion, but I do understand that it seems harder and harder on here to foster good discussion now days. That's something I miss very much - I love to talk supplements, discuss supplements, and miss when we could all just chitchat about ingredients without anyone getting mad, being mean spirited, posting negative comments, or promoting products that have nothing to do with the subject matter.

There are so many ingredients I'm interested in and things I'm working on that I would love to throw around ideas about, but I don't post discussion threads about things like that anymore because they always seem to go sideways.
 
The post was really informative. It's a shame he took it down.

In my "Products Wanted" thread, in response to someone criticizing how cavalier some people are in taking Ozempic, he made it personal in a hurry. Not sure why. Too bad as his other posts were helpful.
 
cdawgismoney said:
The post was really informative. It's a shame he took it down.

In my "Products Wanted" thread, in response to someone criticizing how cavalier some people are in taking Ozempic, he made it personal in a hurry. Not sure why. Too bad as his other posts were helpful.
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@Irishobrien doesn't normally post a lot but when he does, they normally tend to be good quality and informative posts.

I did see your other thread and saw that some things were deleted from that too. I'm not sure what all happened in that thread with all of that; I replied in the thread but specified that I was specifically replying about the supplement things you mentioned and not the conversation on Ozempic.
 
PFlowReborn said:
Hey O'Brien, why did you delete the post? Just curious... Seemed like a good info post to me, you had some good notions. Seemed like others were vibing with the direction too.

Also Happy independence Day!
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It seemed like there were some negative comments in the beginning of the thread, and there was some negativity in another thread from what I could see over the weekend, that was towards him, but a lot looked like it had gotten deleted in that thread so I couldn't make any sense of it.

I personally would have liked to have seen what he posted to make this thread about. I miss the days when we could all discuss subjects like this and actually have a good conversation that everyone could learn from.

I had actually tried to pm him because I wanted to see what all he had posted in this thread and to also see what happened, but he has it to where can't send him pm's right now in his settings. So, @Irishobrien , if you see this, send me a pm please.
 
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