Compound 20

[madchemist]

OUr last response, We have more pressing issues...

I thought I had covered this rather thoroughly but apparently not. You areimplying that using SAR, you can predict not only all pathways, but moreimpressively or actually downright astonishingly, you can predict the oralbioavailability of a compound without it ever being studied, down to a marginof error of 1% apparently with your 0-1% prediction and complete eliminationfrom the body in 3-5 minutes. I have worked in drug discovery and I must say,your ability to do what no one else in history can do places you in an unrealcategory. Pharmaceutical companies would pay you millions atop of millions tobe able to do this. Your accuracy of 99% would put all in silico models toshame. Software developers will be beating down your door with millions andmillions. And who needs animal models any more, they''ll just have you predicteverything.

Structural pro-drugs of dopamine have been thoroughly studied for decades which is why I can say for certainty how these compounds will be metabolized. One of the things you're confused about is the fact that nearly identical analogues have in fact been studied, and dismissed, as recent as 20 years ago. In fact, extremely similar compounds to N-Coumaroyldopamine have made it far in the pharmaceutical pipeline before failing due to kinetic problems - some of the same problems intrinsic to N-Coumaroyldopamine itself. I could literally write a book on how many ways these compounds fail.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that neither of these compounds will be released solo - they will always be packaged into some sort of propriety blend in order to confuse people about their effectiveness (i.e. N-methyltryamine).

I digress. If these compounds are indeed physiologic adrenergic receptor agonists, I challenge you to send a sample either of these phenylpropenic acid derivatives to a few members here (after PA authentication).

 

[Geoforce]

This is what I don't get...

why would anyone in this thread (such as mr. c) get banned?

This thread is full of people taking things far too extreme. It's simple:

We have a product
Some question how or why it works, and thinks it won't
Company responds

Let's forget the drama and nonsense and continue the discussion. No one should be scared or think they'll get banned or go insane. Just talk. Thanks.

Couldn't agree more. However things can tend to get a bit sketchy with companies who are sponsors sometimes on sites. These are the people who pay the bills. I think AM does a fine job though of allowing (as best as I've ever seen) most discussion.

Companies shouldn't be afraid to discuss their products on online forums. If someone questions a product explain why it works. This is pretty much the job of any business. If I'm selling a product and I'm proud of my product and think it is worthy of your dollars I will have no problem telling you why.

FWIW I think both sides are doing a good job so far. Discussion works and is good for everyone. But I definitely know where Ax is coming from with the whole politics talk

 

[madchemist]

The burden of proof is on you, since your argument boils down to overturning the basic axioms of SAR pharmacology for a drug which you have never studied - nor has anyone studied. Ultimately, it is my theory (researched and consistent with the paradigms of established research) vs. your theory which depends on magical thinking.

 

[madchemist]

To correct a few of your statements that you seem so certain about. Acid-labiledrugs are still employed all the time so I'm not sure what you're talkingabout. Enteric coatings, formulation with a buffer and pro-drugs have all beenused. Further, despite what you say, there are many amides used inpharmaceuticals.

I'm not sure where the corrections were, since I clearly stated that altering the pH is "possible" (albiet ill advised). Futhermore, "amides" are rarely used as pro-drugs due to their rapid hydrolytic nature. The point of a "pro-drug" is usually to circumvent a particular metabolic process. If the drug is rapidly hydrolyzed, then you might as well use the parent compound instead. Please stay in the context of this argument.

 

[madchemist]

If you really want to continue pushing this notion, why don't we do this. Howabout we complete 3 bioavailability analyses on 3 compounds which have nopublished studies evaluating such. Then, we can present these compounds to youand you can predict the bioavailabilty. Even though you apparently have theability to predict within 1%, I'll give you a 5% margin of error for yourprediction on each compound. If you predict them correctly, you'll have a$1,000 check waiting for you and I will introduce you to 2 large drug discoverylabs that I still have connections with. If you can't, you'll have to stop thissilliness about predicting pharmacokinetic parameters by simply taking a lookat two similar looking molecules and making generalizations. Instead, you'llhave to rely upon the scientific method which involves experimental results toevaluate the validity of your proposed hypothesis.

A long winded diatribe does not substitute for solid scientific reasoning.

 

[antihero]

Find me one brainiac that doesn't enjoy some advanced discussion. Coop was not attacking. He was stating his opinion. It was pointed out that it came across as aggressive, therefore he stated he would PM all further points of discussion out of respect to USP.

Why does everyone love drama so much? You guys are feeding off of negativity. Enough already.

I've been posting at bb for so long I forgot I was allowed to have an opinion and voice it anymore. Lol

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

I've been posting at bb for so long I forgot I was allowed to have an opinion and voice it anymore. Lol

Its nice isn't it!?

 

[kokobeware2]

**** man reading all these posts I had to take a break 6 times. Worst than studying for the nursing boards damn. Whatever happened to does it work or doesnt it? I don't remember pink magic discussion going this deep. Carry on!

 

[Whacked]

No clue who this madchemist dude is but dang, this debate is getting killer :clap2:

 

[freezito]

The debate might be getting good but bottom line is the product works! Can't dispute fact!

 

[ax1]

The debate might be getting good but bottom line is the product works! Can't dispute fact!

There are alot of mediocre reviews if you look for them.

 

[freezito]

There's a lot of good reviews if u look for them, but opinions are like *******s, we all have one

 

[ax1]

There's a lot of good reviews if u look for them, but opinions are like *******s, we all have one

I know that...but you said "Can't dispute fact!". I never said it doesnt work for everyone, but the facts can be disputed.

 

[neddo]

The debate might be getting good but bottom line is the product works! Can't dispute fact!

LOL.

 

[Whacked]

Yup.

In addition to that, I've "great" reviews AND "terrible" reviews.

I hate to belabor ONE point but I will try again and I say this with all due respect - the vast majority of "great" reviews are coming from users who show up out of the blue with 01-10 post-counts and/or users that are stacking C20 with other well-known time-tested efficacious products (many of which do the same type things that C20 claim to do, like fat loss, etc...albeit thru different pathways).

To those who think Im just a hater, I will add (as I have before), I have been on USP's PowerFULL and USP's CissusRx for YEARS........and I think OEP is a "decent" product as well.

Read my signature. That's my sole agenda. To keep things real and search for "real results/reviews". Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm a simple man with a simple objective. To read thru the BS and siphon out the truth before I waste my hard earned cash.

I've got no skin in the game! I couldnt care less if USP took over the planet or went bankrupt tomorrow.

As far as supplements that do not deliever and get over-hyped, do I really need to justify my position and desire to couch the BS that goes on with these practices?

General coment (not just USP-based) I am in awe of anyone who feels so compelled to passionately defent/protect a company that does nothing for them but take their money

I hope MadChemist and USP can resepctrfully debate and thus intelligently provide/educate all of us on the science, if any, behind the hefty claims.

If the science seems to support the use, I'll gladly spend my hard-earned dough on it.

There are alot of mediocre reviews if you look for them.

 

[freezito]

And with all do respect there are certain people here who like too attack and argue certain companies products on a consistent basis. Funny how u find them in a lot of threads and it's always negative.

 

[ax1]

And with all do respect there are certain people here who like too attack and argue certain companies products on a consistent basis. Funny how u find them in a lot of threads and it's always negative.

There are certain people here who support and promote companies on a consistent basis. Funny how you find them in a lot of threads and its always positive.

What Im saying is, why would one way be wrong over the other?

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

I dunno guys.
There was one dude that knew it wasn't working after only a few days on it so he stopped using it.
Hehe

 

[ax1]

I dunno guys.
There was one dude that knew it wasn't working after only a few days on it so he stopped using it.
Hehe

Well, a few days is a bit ridiculous to quit on a product such as this. Halodrol wont even work in a few days.

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

Well, a few days is a bit ridiculous to quite on a product such as this. Halodrol wont even work in a few days.

I was just poking fun
There are lots of people that buy a Supp thinking its a magic pill, so they have these crazy high expectations and then when they don't replaced 2 lbs of fat with 2 lbs of muscle in 4 days they think its bunk.

 

[breezy11]

I was just poking fun
There are lots of people that buy a Supp thinking its a magic pill, so they have these crazy high expectations and then when they don't replaced 2 lbs of fat with 2 lbs of muscle in 4 days they think its bunk.

It seems some people often fail to realize that the majority of their success with any product like this will be based on tailoring their diet and training to meet their goals.

 

[ax1]

It seems some people often fail to realize that the majority of their success with any product will be based on tailoring their diet and training to meet their goals.

There is the issue where anabolic drug users often knock natty supplements ability to do anything. Its as if they are desensitized or something either mentally and/or just dont respond because they are well beyond their natural peak.

 

[Whacked]

I am sure this was addressed to me, all good. LOL

Generally speaking I think there is some merit to this statement. However, it falls short of being comprehensively accurate in context. AX1 does a nice job of prudently discussing the converse.

Let's get back OT and hear the science. It appears mad chemist laid out several arguments against the efficacy of said product. I await USP's reply.

And with all do respect there are certain people here who like too attack and argue certain companies products on a consistent basis. Funny how u find them in a lot of threads and it's always negative.

There are certain people here who support and promote companies on a consistent basis. Funny how you find them in a lot of threads and its always positive.

What Im saying is, why would one way be wrong over the other?

 

[JudoJosh]

There is the issue where anabolic drug users often knock natty supplements ability to do anything. Its as if they are desensitized or something either mentally and/or just dont respond because they are well beyond their natural peak.

Admittedly I suffer from this occasionally but I do try hard to keep an open mind. I think the problem lies more with the individual who confuses "keeping an open mind" with blindly believing and falling for over marketing tactics. I believe there is nothing wrong with holding a companies feet to the fire but at the same time we can not compare the ability something has on fat loss or anabolism to their illegal alternatives.

 

[bdcc]

For what it's worth a colleague of mine started Compound 20 after he saw me using it and told me it was the best supplement he has ever tried. He, unlike myself, ran it solo and at the dose stated on the bottle.

I told him about the discussion going on here with the "a lot of people are stacking with other products so the testimonials are being questioned" and he said he would post up his thoughts if anyone wanted.

There is little point to that because his join date would be April 2012 and skeptics would argue his review is erroneous due to this.

I believe supplement skepticism is healthy but this skepticism is also ruling out genuine reviews as well. True scientists need impartiality rather than letting their own opinions tarnish the results. I commend Whacked's thought process of questioning everything, especially as the supplement game is heavy on the marketing, it is important to make sure your skepticism is not ruining the impartiality too much in the other direction.

If anyone wants my colleague's review (he is also a Personal Trainer) I will get him to post it up or can post it on here on his behalf.

 

[freezito]

I slept at a holiday in last night does that count for anything

 

[strategicmove]

And with all do respect there are certain people here who like too attack and argue certain companies products on a consistent basis. Funny how u find them in a lot of threads and it's always negative.

I could not agree more.

 

[USPlabsRep]

I am sure this was addressed to me, all good. LOL

Generally speaking I think there is some merit to this statement. However, it falls short of being comprehensively accurate in context. AX1 does a nice job of prudently discussing the converse.

Let's get back OT and hear the science. It appears mad chemist laid out several arguments against the efficacy of said product. I await USP's reply.

Did accidently fail to read our response? it's your choice from there to decipher...

 

[Whacked]

Yup. I appreciate both sides explaining things.

Did you read madchemist's 4 rebuttals to your replies? (posts # 101, 103, 104 and 105)

Thanks

 

[strategicmove]

Did accidently fail to read our response? it's your choice from there to decipher...

I see it the same way, too. There is hardly anything substantive to add anymore.

 

[freezito]

People see only what they wanna see

 

[smt1]

If you predict them correctly, you'll have a$1,000 check waiting for you and I will introduce you to 2 large drug discoverylabs that I still have connections with.

If I'm not mistaken (and he is who I think he is), MC is well on his way to getting a MD-PhD (and has one of those already), so those kinds of connections are probably already available to him. :wink1:

 

[strategicmove]

People see only what they wanna see

Indeed. That is exactly why this page can run 100 pages or more without any convergence.

 

[Geoforce]

It seems some people often fail to realize that the majority of their success with any product like this will be based on tailoring their diet and training to meet their goals.

Definitely. Sometimes supplements convince people to actually train hard and eat better and then at the end of the run they say "look what the supplement did!" Well maybe it had some effect, but it's biggest effect was getting you to lift and eat better!

On the other end of the spectrum some people don't change their ways and eat crap/don't train hard then are pissed when a product "doesn't work."

 

[neddo]

People will only parrot whatever they believe.

fixd

I thought this forum was different than bb.com? I still see cawk riders, just different supplements being ridden.

 

[Whacked]

Agreed man

All good. If the blind sheeeeple want to follow, that's their decision.

And for the record: Im referring to ALL supplement-company-jocking people not just the ones in this thread.

fixd

I thought this forum was different than bb.com? I still see cawk riders, just different supplements being ridden.

 

[freezito]

fixd

I thought this forum was different than bb.com? I still see cawk riders, just different supplements being ridden.

Seems your definately a expert on that subject

 

[USPlabsRep]

Yup. I appreciate both sides explaining things.

Did you read madchemist's 4 rebuttals to your replies? (posts # 101, 103, 104 and 105)

Thanks

for the record

No clue who this mad chemist is but he sure sounds smart

Will someone dumb it down for the rest of us?

 

[neddo]

for the record

For the record, Whacked is not participating in the scientific discussion... Nor does he claim that he understands madchemist's posts, but is simply waiting for a response on your end.

I'm unsure what exactly your intentions are in this post, other than this.


Again, stay classy USPLabs.

 

[Whacked]

Nail on head Neddo. I think there is some obvious "ducking" going on with respect to rationale science-based factual evidence.

I'll leave it there. MadChemist eloquently presented a position (a strong one may I add), and the responses are now focused on attacking members to "validate the product". Not cool. Members/potential buyers should be able to ask questions and demand proof prior to spending their hard earned money w/o getting chastized.

IMHO, MadChemist said all that needed to be said. Science trumps psuedoscience and cronie-infested bullying or useless "diatribes" as MadChemist put it.....all day long.

Even IF the ingredients in said product works (and maybe they do.....and props to USP for bringing these to the market if this is the case), the other issue is that the even half life appears to be .... a minute or two max. Sooo at the very least, dosing one cap/hour (9-10 caps/day) MIGHT be the most optimal way to go if one choose to run this product. Might be cost-prohibitive but it also might give the user the most bang for the buck. just speculating.

It would have bneen nioce to hear the actualy science-guys respectfully debate this point as well. Don't think that's going to happen though.

Im outta here. Take care all. Good luck USP with your product.

 

[USPlabsRep]

For the record, Whacked is not participating in the scientific discussion... Nor does he claim that he understands madchemist's posts, but is simply waiting for a response on your end.

I'm unsure what exactly your intentions are in this post, other than this.


Again, stay classy USPLabs.

He is participating.

Your position is obvious.

 

[USPlabsRep]

fixd

I thought this forum was different than bb.com? I still see cawk riders, just different supplements being ridden.

With great success comes extreme disgust from others..nature of the world.

I'll take it...

Can't be on top of the supplement industry and be loved by all in any industry...

Compound 20 feedback will be the final product validation...

 

[ax1]

With great success comes extreme disgust from others..nature of the world.

I'll take it...

Can't be on top of the supplement industry and be loved by all in any industry...

Compound 20 feedback will be the final product validation...

From a business standpoint, bad press is better than no press. Look how after the whole "DS Craze" fiasco it immediately became the #1 top selling product on the Nutraplanet store.

Anyways I wish the best for your Compound 20 product and good progress with your customers.

 

[rome32]

With great success comes extreme disgust from others..nature of the world.

I'll take it...

Can't be on top of the supplement industry and be loved by all in any industry...

Compound 20 feedback will be the final product validation...

Amen to that! I'm thinkibg of taking a week off after my ABE/EP/DAA to cleanse and going on a solo Compound 20 log.

 

[Clemenza]

With great success comes extreme disgust from others..nature of the world.

I'll take it...

Can't be on top of the supplement industry and be loved by all in any industry...

Compound 20 feedback will be the final product validation...

My compound 20 solo log starts tomorrow

 

[kevinhy]

My compound 20 solo log starts tomorrow

Interested in seeing that.

 

[freezito]

Compound 20 was flying off the shelf long before this post

 

[Geoforce]

I would love to see the scientific discussion continue. I know a lot on here are big on feedback and while feedback is great it's also easily manipulated. Is someone saying good things because they got the product free? Are the diet or training changes the reason for the success and not the product? How much is the product helping? And of course when people run logs with 35 other supplements how much is the one supplement being reviewed helping?

Even supplements that later on get proven to be underdosed or potentially worthless via COA's have gotten amazing reviews. The feedback from other people is something that always interests me...but I know it can often be best taken with a grain of salt. I'd prefer to see science show me why something is going to work and how. Science (for me) trumps anecdotal evidence any day of the week for all but a few highly trusted members on websites. I know some people don't feel this way.

 

[USPlabsRep]

My compound 20 solo log starts tomorrow

On a different note...

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Regulation/AHPA-If-DMAA-is-in-geranium-synthesized-version-is-a-lawful-dietary-ingredient

 

[Clemenza]

On a different note...

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Regulation/AHPA-If-DMAA-is-in-geranium-synthesized-version-is-a-lawful-dietary-ingredient

Props to AHPA and McGuffin. It almost seems as if the FDA did not do their homework here. They claim "synthetically produced dmaa is not a dietary ingredient" and allege "dmaa can raise blood pressure and increase work of the heart".

If they ban it under the basis that it is synthetically made (derived or not derived from geranium not even being the issue), then they are either missing the fact that the majority of dietary supplements on the market (vitamins, minerals, amino acids) are all synthetically made.
Or... they already understand this and this is just the start of a very possible attempt for the FDA to find an excuse to take over a "synthetically" manufactured dietary supplement market.

Their argument to the public being... "We can no longer trust a privatized industry of herbal and vitamin supplement manufacturers who provide their customers with "SYNTHETIC" and not naturally derived supplements"

Great way to turn the ill-informed public away from the manufacturers and right into the arms of big government.

Ephedra is a natural substance. And it's banned. The FDA/Government can make the rules as they go along.