Chinese herbs
- Thread starter matthias7
- Start date
narraboth
Member
oh, don't say that, you will piss off SERMs supporters if they havn't been pissed off by chinese medicine... 
joking
joking
matthias7
Well-known member
Better not go into that here. The question is whether two of the three major SERMs could result in liver problems. Its impossible to answer. Clearly the risk is reasonably low, otherwise we'd all know about it, it is nevertheless a risk.
Contentious.
The Chinese medicine, could a Chinese Yan medicine do better than DTHC for PCT? Very possibly and in the hands of a good Chinese doctor very probably.
Ayurvedic medicine No one disputes that Indian medicine (Ayurvedic) has made a MASSIVE impact on supplements, e.g. USP Labs, such as PowerFull ( the idea originates from Mucana puriens), Tribulus, Cissus ... perhaps even Anabolic Pump carries Ayurvedic medicine: thats their big sellers, PowerFull, Prime, Super Cissus, perhaps Anabolic Pump.
Chinese medicine is much more systematic and complicated IMO. The difficulty in becoming a Chinese medical practioner in Tiawan is good evidence, although having said that I have a Tiawanese colleague who was astonished that I knew more about Chinese medicine than they did "my mum does that!" they said when I told them about preparing Fo-Ti
There is quite of people following this thread BTW, its just difficult to contribute because we really don't know enough about non-Western medicine.
Contentious.
The Chinese medicine, could a Chinese Yan medicine do better than DTHC for PCT? Very possibly and in the hands of a good Chinese doctor very probably.
Ayurvedic medicine No one disputes that Indian medicine (Ayurvedic) has made a MASSIVE impact on supplements, e.g. USP Labs, such as PowerFull ( the idea originates from Mucana puriens), Tribulus, Cissus ... perhaps even Anabolic Pump carries Ayurvedic medicine: thats their big sellers, PowerFull, Prime, Super Cissus, perhaps Anabolic Pump.
Chinese medicine is much more systematic and complicated IMO. The difficulty in becoming a Chinese medical practioner in Tiawan is good evidence, although having said that I have a Tiawanese colleague who was astonished that I knew more about Chinese medicine than they did "my mum does that!" they said when I told them about preparing Fo-Ti
There is quite of people following this thread BTW, its just difficult to contribute because we really don't know enough about non-Western medicine.
narraboth
Member
Havn't use DTHC so can't comment. The ingredient list looks like everything (and quite expensive). Is it really better than any other testo booster?
btw I don't think chinese yan medicine will usually bring you agressiveness though.
Powerfull got some mixture reviews; some people describe it as 'just help sleep'. Anyway, I have some raw Mucana puriens powder which cost just 1/5of powerfull; if you want higher l-dopa, the pure l-dopa is also cheap.
That's just an example. Actually many of the raw herbs are just dirt cheap; A 100g pack of turmeric powder is just 30p in indian spice shop, and when it becomes an '30% extract' it can cost you 25 pounds. What for? you can eat turmeric directly anyway.
Not just herbs, you can buy kliograms of Tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA) from China, but when it turns to LIVER LONGER, 60 tablets cost you $35.
Is raw powder from China less safe? I doubt. The product might just come from it.
That's how this busniess go....
How about you quit lecturer and we set a company, selling many over priced products.... As two bio-med phD, we can design many pseudo science animal/human trial, make a big selling and get some real money.... haha
matthias7
Well-known member
It is not known to boost test, but helps libido and aggression. I can't stomach it. Its a natty product.
It doesn't need to generate aggression.
This is good advice. Never thought about it like that.
Thanks!
Business was never my thing, but there is certainly a gap in the market for Chinese medicine that could be useful in sports supplements. It would be easy to get past the FDA because the Chinese have been taking this stuff for 1000s years.
narraboth
Member
An experience about sometimes herbs are better:
I took 山藥 Chinese Yam (Dioscorea batatas Decne. a natural source of DHEA) extract. I got a cold several yrs ago and went to see chinese medicine doctor in taiwan, at that time I also got stomach problem, so the doctor gave me Cold therapy plus Chinese Yam extract powder to help my stomach (3g per day. Chinese Yam is traditionally used for both digest and sexual problems). after 2 days, I felt sooo horny..... I don't know if DHEA itself can give me that though. Even yes, 3g chinese yam extract contains a bit too low dosage of DHEA I think. Maybe there are some other compounds involved.
Sometimes it might better to take the whole herb/extract rather than compound. I have read that Mucuna works better and longer than pure l-dopa for some unknown reason. Soybean protein is also reported to be better than just soy isoflavones.... (some people also say it's because of race. soy isoflavones work nicely in Japanese and Chinese study, while useless in American women)
I took 山藥 Chinese Yam (Dioscorea batatas Decne. a natural source of DHEA) extract. I got a cold several yrs ago and went to see chinese medicine doctor in taiwan, at that time I also got stomach problem, so the doctor gave me Cold therapy plus Chinese Yam extract powder to help my stomach (3g per day. Chinese Yam is traditionally used for both digest and sexual problems). after 2 days, I felt sooo horny..... I don't know if DHEA itself can give me that though. Even yes, 3g chinese yam extract contains a bit too low dosage of DHEA I think. Maybe there are some other compounds involved.
Sometimes it might better to take the whole herb/extract rather than compound. I have read that Mucuna works better and longer than pure l-dopa for some unknown reason. Soybean protein is also reported to be better than just soy isoflavones.... (some people also say it's because of race. soy isoflavones work nicely in Japanese and Chinese study, while useless in American women)
matthias7
Well-known member
I read the study that Mucan puriens worked better than L-dopa for Parkinson's. Its probably other compounds which are inhibiting its breakdown in the bloodstream (dopamine can't cross the blood-brain barrier, L-dopa can). You can't buy the dopamine decarboxylase inhibitor in the US even on script, green tea might do this (APPNUT seem to think so). If I remember the Parkinson's drug is Sinemet (sp?), which combines L-dopa and the DDI.
The reason DDI can't be bought by itself is if you combined it with lots of e.g. 5HTP, it can be fatal (serotonin syndrome).
Don't think that DHEA is a big libido boost - for older guys it could be. I suspect its other stuff in the yam, but dunno.
The reason DDI can't be bought by itself is if you combined it with lots of e.g. 5HTP, it can be fatal (serotonin syndrome).
Don't think that DHEA is a big libido boost - for older guys it could be. I suspect its other stuff in the yam, but dunno.
narraboth
Member
hi, Green Tea can act as MAO type B inhibitor, so decrease l-dopa being transfer to dopamine before it arrive CNS (ex. brain). Only when it get through BBB into CNS, you will have the effect you want, such as happy feeling, increase hGH etc. Otherwise it just lets your blood pressure higher.
Theoritically, many things can act as MAOi, such as 紅景天 Rhodiola, but i tried raw Rhodiola tea and green tea, seems green tea is better, maybe because it also contain coffeine.
Medical use MAOis are usually prescription drugs, however MAO-Bi is more available since it's less dangerous. Many people use it recreationally with l-dopa. Surely you still need to be careful with MAOi, serotonin syndrome can kill you, and combine with other normally safe drug (such as cough syrup ingredient DXM) can also kill you.
not sure if your DDCi is my MAOi
anyway, my experience is:
I mix murcan 0.75g and l-dopa 0.25g, drank with a cup of Green tea on empty stomach (I forgot if I took B6), these gave me a clear mind and good mood morning (worked for about 4 hours). without murcan and green tea, 500mg l-dopa just made me felt my pulse on my neck for 1 mins, then nothing happened.
About DHEA, I was in my early 20s... I don't know, but I think my body was actually more sensitive to herbs in sense of libido than how I am now?
Theoritically, many things can act as MAOi, such as 紅景天 Rhodiola, but i tried raw Rhodiola tea and green tea, seems green tea is better, maybe because it also contain coffeine.
Medical use MAOis are usually prescription drugs, however MAO-Bi is more available since it's less dangerous. Many people use it recreationally with l-dopa. Surely you still need to be careful with MAOi, serotonin syndrome can kill you, and combine with other normally safe drug (such as cough syrup ingredient DXM) can also kill you.
not sure if your DDCi is my MAOi
anyway, my experience is:
I mix murcan 0.75g and l-dopa 0.25g, drank with a cup of Green tea on empty stomach (I forgot if I took B6), these gave me a clear mind and good mood morning (worked for about 4 hours). without murcan and green tea, 500mg l-dopa just made me felt my pulse on my neck for 1 mins, then nothing happened.
About DHEA, I was in my early 20s... I don't know, but I think my body was actually more sensitive to herbs in sense of libido than how I am now?
matthias7
Well-known member
Rhodiola is suspected to be a MAOI, presumably B. To my knowledge it was never proven.
Didn't know green tea was MAOI. It can't be strong if so because it would elevate the effect from PEA. I think the EGCG is inhibiting DDC in the blood stream but the only study I saw was in vitro. If think this is the basis to HGHUp: its L-dopa and green tea extract combo.
Didn't know green tea was MAOI. It can't be strong if so because it would elevate the effect from PEA. I think the EGCG is inhibiting DDC in the blood stream but the only study I saw was in vitro. If think this is the basis to HGHUp: its L-dopa and green tea extract combo.
narraboth
Member
If that's the case then HGHup is really overprice....
wait, let me check the ingredients...
Chlorophytum borivilanium (75% extract)
L-carnitine l-tartrate
Green tea (98% polyphenol, 50% EGCG)
Mucuna pruriens (standardized to 75% l-dops)
Magnesium (as magnesium carbonate)
B-complex
Bioperine (95%-98% piperine)
Huperzine-A (huperzia serrata 5% extract)
Selenium..........
yes, it is overprice.
matthias7
Well-known member
I honestly don't know what the above stuff is or what it does, so I can't comment. Oh I see its Safed Musli. Okay, Indian libido booster. Never tried it ... maybe I have if its in PowerFull.
Alot depends on the quality and APPNUT has a high reputation for quality. Also the tea extraction process if they extract the "putative" DDCi at high purity then we are also paying for the R&D, which is what you pay for with USBlab products such as Prime.
HGHUP does have a good reputation. It looks a well thought out designer, so I guess the answer is what's it worth? I am surprised they haven't put zinc in there, magnesium makes sense (sedation).
IGF-2 is another APPNUT product with a good reputation.
narraboth
Member
About quality... well, I don't know. The reputation here usually means how people felt after taking them, but products that people feel 'work on them' are not necessarily higher quality or purer; they are just more potent in only some ways. Companies don't make everything in the US anyway: they just buy bulk ingredients from China or India or somewhere and mix them, capsule them, box them, mark price and sell them. We can only hope they find some reliable supplier and buy higher price/grade bulk stuffs.
And the reason you take this stuff... is to boost your hGH right? There is no solid scientific base for the link of taking l-dopa orally to higher human GH I think? Results are mixture (more negative and mostly megadose if positive) for almost all hGH boosters via oral route (L-Arginine, Arginine + Lysine... blah blah).
Sleep better... good; higher libido... good, but hGH level...?
I mean, it's ok to take it (as long as you don't worry about over-stimulating dopamine receptors); but for the uncertainty of usefulness, I personally will choose a cheaper option.
At least a cup of green tea and some mad bean powder give me a good mood morning.
And the reason you take this stuff... is to boost your hGH right? There is no solid scientific base for the link of taking l-dopa orally to higher human GH I think? Results are mixture (more negative and mostly megadose if positive) for almost all hGH boosters via oral route (L-Arginine, Arginine + Lysine... blah blah).
Sleep better... good; higher libido... good, but hGH level...?
I mean, it's ok to take it (as long as you don't worry about over-stimulating dopamine receptors); but for the uncertainty of usefulness, I personally will choose a cheaper option.
At least a cup of green tea and some mad bean powder give me a good mood morning.
Rhyno
Active member
So living in China, it is much easier for me to obtain chinese medicine than it is to get western nutritional supps. I want to reduce some sub-q water retention that I am experiencing on cycle (PP 1-T, var, proviron) so a mild AI would fit the bill.
So I started researching chinese medicinal herbs with anti-estrogenic activity and found this:
I got a hold of the full-text of the article and made a list of promising herbs:
Phellodrendron Bark - huáng bò (黄檗) / huáng bǎi (黃柏):
Very potent. Showed the highest anti-estrogenic activity with a tiny bit of anti-androgenic activity. The anti-estro/andro ratio is like more than 100 to 1 tho. For some reason they refer to it as "huang bi" in the article
These three have relatively the same anti-estrogenic activity and are very mild compared to huáng bò:
Citrus Peel - chén pí (陈皮)
Arantium Fruit - zhǐ ké (枳壳):
Oriental/Korean Foxglove - shú dì (熟地)
Thoughts?
So I started researching chinese medicinal herbs with anti-estrogenic activity and found this:
I got a hold of the full-text of the article and made a list of promising herbs:
Phellodrendron Bark - huáng bò (黄檗) / huáng bǎi (黃柏):
Very potent. Showed the highest anti-estrogenic activity with a tiny bit of anti-androgenic activity. The anti-estro/andro ratio is like more than 100 to 1 tho. For some reason they refer to it as "huang bi" in the article
These three have relatively the same anti-estrogenic activity and are very mild compared to huáng bò:
Citrus Peel - chén pí (陈皮)
Arantium Fruit - zhǐ ké (枳壳):
Oriental/Korean Foxglove - shú dì (熟地)
Thoughts?
matthias7
Well-known member
I have tried Chinese foxglove and it had a very noticeable energy effect.
Would like to hear Narraboth's view. I presume this gets put into a larger formula in the same way Chinese foxglove does.
However..
Would like to hear Narraboth's view. I presume this gets put into a larger formula in the same way Chinese foxglove does.
However..
This looks poor English. They cannot possibly mean that 1g of herb provides the same activity as 1.2g of tamoxifen? Apart from the toxicity that would give ZERO estrogens and in itself must make the patient very ill.
narraboth
Member
Hi, I think it means
dry herb ----- has similar effect to ----- tamoxifen
1.18 ------------------------------------------ 0.06
1280.66 mg --------------------------------- 0.98 mg
about 1.3g herb can act like 1mg of tamoxifen. (but I don't think that means 13g of herb can act like 10mg, obviously not a linear correlation) I havn't read the full article, don't know how they did it. Uni of Kent is not a bad school.
Is it poor English? I don't know, maybe poor English users like me can understand poor English better.
Phellodrendron Bark 黃柏
Oriental Foxglove 地黃
they are the main ingredients in 'Ji Bo Di Huang Wan' which we discussed in the very beginning.
'Bo' means 黃柏
'Di Huang' means 地黃
黃柏 sounds reasonable for your (Rhyno's) problem, first it can decrease water retention, second it helps liver funtion. (but I have to say I don't know much about the compounds you use) It's a very 'cold' herb, helps the YIN, and might do bad to your stomach if you take too much. Which means, it can destroy your apetite. I would suggest take it with some other warming herbs.
Citrus Peel and Arantium Fruit, in low dosage they can boost your apetite. But higher Arentium can inhibit apetite. People use Arantium as a supplement for losing weight (it contains synephrine).
Oriental Foxglove is commonly used in many Chinese medications, especially sexual function related. It's fairly safe, good for health in general. If you have digestion problem or loose stool you might want to avoid or add some other herbs to balance its 'wet' effect.
One thing has to be mentioned: 熟地 means 'steamed foxglove', there are three kinds of foxglove described in chinese medicine: fresh (鮮地黃), dry (乾地黃 or 生地) and steamed with wine plus Amomum villosum (砂仁). Usually the later two are more avaliable. The two are quiet different especially when the steamed one contains Amomum villosum. Easy enough to guess, the dry one is cooling and the steamed one is more warm (but still helps YIN).
narraboth
Member
I think that l-dopa /hGH study was base on IV rather than oral route? any study confirm the effect on ORAL l-dopa intake?
Rhyno
Active member
@narraboth: Thanks for the recommendation. I'm currently dieting so I think 黃柏 would work nicely.
@Matthias: According to the study, 1g of the the phellodendrone shows an equivalent anti-estrogen response as 1280mg of nolva. Pretty ridiculous.
I have the full-text if either of you would like to see it. Just upped it to rapidshare.
@Matthias: According to the study, 1g of the the phellodendrone shows an equivalent anti-estrogen response as 1280mg of nolva. Pretty ridiculous.
I have the full-text if either of you would like to see it. Just upped it to rapidshare.
narraboth
Member
Then I got to think how good Uni of Kent is now.
matthias7
Well-known member
Its got to be a mistake because the stuff would be almost lethal (and thats not a joke), more like Deadly NightShade than Chinese medicine. You'd either be cured of cancer or plagued by it.
That is a good point but whilst the efficiency will be much lower the principle should still apply: Parkinson's Sinemet therapy is oral and this is where lack of dopamine means critical health problems.
narraboth
Member
1. I think I might read that paper next week to see how could this happen... if it's really a mistake then the author, the supervisor, the editor all missed it, that is bad science.
2. yes, of course l-dopa effects something.... but for hGH there are other stuffs also work as injection (eg, L-Arginine) but uselss as oral taking, even in megadose. BBB is very tricky. Furthermore, even it can increase hGH to some sort, it's still not sure that people can get more muscle and less fat etc. There are some other amino acids seems to increase hGH but in the end the benefits on body composition etc are not singnificant.
Lack dopamine cause health problem, too much dopamine cause addiction.... not a very friendly thing to play with.
Rhyno
Active member
I doubt it was the mistake. The journal it comes from is reputable and has been in print for over 30 years.
It's actually dopamine's effects on the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and nucleus accumbems (the reward centers of the brain) that cause addicition. But yes you are right: too much dopamine release in these areas will likely result in addiction.
Fun discussion btw, gentlemen. :cheers:
matthias7
Well-known member
Its the time between taking it and the speed of effect that counts. If its too slow and (comparatively) weak then its fine, the key problems are are it loses effect.
We have a publication called "The Beano", which is a child's comic starring "Dennis the Menace" and has been in print for well over 30 years. Well if its true then the herb is toxic at normal dosages.
Rhyno
Active member
Nolva is only the standard of comparision they are using. 1g of herb = equal anti-estrogenic effects of 1.2g tamoxifen. This does not mean that taking of 1g of it is actually the same taking such a ridiculous amount of nolva.
If you don't want to believe that's fine with me; but at least read the study first:
Invalid Link Removed
Btw, bought about 100g of phellodendron. Gonna try it tomorrow.
MAxximal
Well-known member
Pharmaceutical Name
Cortex Phellodendri
English Name
amur cork-tree bark, phellodendron
Parts Used
dried bark
This herb is the dried bark of Phellodendron chinense
Schneid. or Phellodendron amurense Rupr.
(Fam. Rutaceae). The former is commonly called
Chuan Huang Bai and the latter is called Guan
Huang Bai. Chuan Huang Bai is produced chiefly
in the provinces of Sichuan, Guizhou, Hubei, and
Yunnan. Guan Huang Bai is produced chiefly in the
provinces of Liaoning, Jilin, and Hebei. The bark is
stripped off the tree from March to June, dried in
sunlight, sliced, and used unprepared or stir-baked
with salt water.
Flavor, Property and Channel Tropism
Bitter in flavor, cold in property, acts on the Kidney,
Bladder, and Large Intestine channels.
Functions
Clears Damp Heat, quenches Fire, removes toxins,
relieves consumptive fever.
Clinical Uses and Major Combinations
For Damp Heat syndromes. For dysentery with
fever, abdominal pain, diarrhea, bloody stool, and
tenesmus, it is used with Rhizoma Coptidis (Huang
Lian) and Radix Pulsatillae Chinensis (Bai Tou
Weng). For jaundice, it is used with Fructus Gardeniae
(Zhi Zi) and Radix Glycyrrhizae Uralensis
(Gan Cao). For yellow, thick, foul leukorrhagia, it is
used with Semen Ginkgo Bilobae (Bai Guo) and
Semen Plantaginis (Che Qian Zi) in “The Decoction
for Removing Yellow Leukorrhagia” (Yi Huang
Tang). For swelling and pain in the knees, it is used
with Rhizoma Atractylodis (Cang Zhu) and Radix
Achyranthis Bidentatae (Niu Xi) in “The Powder
of Three Wonderful Herbs” (San Miao San). For
urinary tract infections accompanied by difficult
and painful urination, it is used with diuretic herbs
like Herba Lophatheri (Dan Zhu Ye) and Caulis
Akebiae (Guan Mu Tong).
For various infections of the skin such as boils,
sores, and eczema. For eczema, it is used with Herba
Schizonepetae ( Jing Jie) and Radix Sophorae
Flavescentis (Ku Shen).
For fever with night sweats and seminal emission
due to Yin Deficiency, it is used with Rhizoma
Anemarrhenae (Zhi Mu), Radix Rehmanniae
(Sheng Di Huang), and Carapax et Plastrum Testudinis
(Gui Ban) in “Rehmmania Bolus of Six
Herbs Plus Anemarrhena and Phellodendron”
(Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan).
Dosages and Administrations
3-10g, decocted in water for an oral use, or used
in bolus and powder. Appropriate quantity for external
use.
Precautions
This herb is very bitter and cold, and easily damages
the Stomach Qi, therefore it is contraindicated for
Cold syndromes of a Deficiency type in the Spleen
and Stomach.
Cortex Phellodendri
English Name
amur cork-tree bark, phellodendron
Parts Used
dried bark
This herb is the dried bark of Phellodendron chinense
Schneid. or Phellodendron amurense Rupr.
(Fam. Rutaceae). The former is commonly called
Chuan Huang Bai and the latter is called Guan
Huang Bai. Chuan Huang Bai is produced chiefly
in the provinces of Sichuan, Guizhou, Hubei, and
Yunnan. Guan Huang Bai is produced chiefly in the
provinces of Liaoning, Jilin, and Hebei. The bark is
stripped off the tree from March to June, dried in
sunlight, sliced, and used unprepared or stir-baked
with salt water.
Flavor, Property and Channel Tropism
Bitter in flavor, cold in property, acts on the Kidney,
Bladder, and Large Intestine channels.
Functions
Clears Damp Heat, quenches Fire, removes toxins,
relieves consumptive fever.
Clinical Uses and Major Combinations
For Damp Heat syndromes. For dysentery with
fever, abdominal pain, diarrhea, bloody stool, and
tenesmus, it is used with Rhizoma Coptidis (Huang
Lian) and Radix Pulsatillae Chinensis (Bai Tou
Weng). For jaundice, it is used with Fructus Gardeniae
(Zhi Zi) and Radix Glycyrrhizae Uralensis
(Gan Cao). For yellow, thick, foul leukorrhagia, it is
used with Semen Ginkgo Bilobae (Bai Guo) and
Semen Plantaginis (Che Qian Zi) in “The Decoction
for Removing Yellow Leukorrhagia” (Yi Huang
Tang). For swelling and pain in the knees, it is used
with Rhizoma Atractylodis (Cang Zhu) and Radix
Achyranthis Bidentatae (Niu Xi) in “The Powder
of Three Wonderful Herbs” (San Miao San). For
urinary tract infections accompanied by difficult
and painful urination, it is used with diuretic herbs
like Herba Lophatheri (Dan Zhu Ye) and Caulis
Akebiae (Guan Mu Tong).
For various infections of the skin such as boils,
sores, and eczema. For eczema, it is used with Herba
Schizonepetae ( Jing Jie) and Radix Sophorae
Flavescentis (Ku Shen).
For fever with night sweats and seminal emission
due to Yin Deficiency, it is used with Rhizoma
Anemarrhenae (Zhi Mu), Radix Rehmanniae
(Sheng Di Huang), and Carapax et Plastrum Testudinis
(Gui Ban) in “Rehmmania Bolus of Six
Herbs Plus Anemarrhena and Phellodendron”
(Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan).
Dosages and Administrations
3-10g, decocted in water for an oral use, or used
in bolus and powder. Appropriate quantity for external
use.
Precautions
This herb is very bitter and cold, and easily damages
the Stomach Qi, therefore it is contraindicated for
Cold syndromes of a Deficiency type in the Spleen
and Stomach.
matthias7
Well-known member
The easiest way to do this is to buy Phellodrendron Bark - huáng bò (黄檗) / huáng bǎi (黃柏) and see how I respond to it.
If okay I'll look at 壯陽丸 and 片 and 黃柏 / 地黃
With Tamoxifen at least you know the dosages, heavy dosages, side effects, risks and what to look out for if things go wrong. With Phellodrendron Bark I've no idea. I am going to need blood work to be sure this is safe. The journal has an impact of 3.7 which is reputable and specializes in reproductive medicine.
If okay I'll look at 壯陽丸 and 片 and 黃柏 / 地黃
With Tamoxifen at least you know the dosages, heavy dosages, side effects, risks and what to look out for if things go wrong. With Phellodrendron Bark I've no idea. I am going to need blood work to be sure this is safe. The journal has an impact of 3.7 which is reputable and specializes in reproductive medicine.
MAxximal
Well-known member
The typical dosage of phellodendron bark is between 3 and 12 grams of powdered herb?
matthias7
Well-known member
Thanks its according to the Sys Biol Reprod Med article thats 10g of Nolva. Which would be 600 tablets - which would make someone very, very ill.
Its straight from your text books Maxx, so must be reliable.
Geee... this stuff is complicated. Its obviously doing much more than estrogen modulation. Its difficult to get your head around Chinese medicine because you'd look at all the stuff its doing and wonder how are they connected?
Hmm... need to think about this before commiting.
Its straight from your text books Maxx, so must be reliable.
Thats interesting because you'd have thought it would have the opposite effect.
Geee... this stuff is complicated. Its obviously doing much more than estrogen modulation. Its difficult to get your head around Chinese medicine because you'd look at all the stuff its doing and wonder how are they connected?
Hmm... need to think about this before commiting.
matthias7
Well-known member
Let us know how it goes.
MAxximal
Well-known member
GREAT THREAD!!!!!
Rhyno
Active member
Sketchy Yellow Powder:
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I tried 3g last night. The ladies at the pharmacy said to boil it, but the stove in my building wasn't working again...that's china for ya. So I just put the 3g in a cup with some water and microwaved it for 2.5 min. Then I strained it and put it in a plasic container to chill in the freezer. When it was cool, I chugged it. Not pleasant, but not too terrible either.
This stuff knocked me out. I suspect it was the berberine in it that tanked my already low blood sugar.
I've been on the velocity diet for a little over a week now, and my bowels don't seem to be "moving" like they used to. I definately noticed the mild laxative effect of this herb. If you take too much, I'm pretty sure you'd be spending the day on the toliet regretting doing so.
The next day I looked a lot "drier," despite a less than stellar water intake the day before. A few of my joints have been hurting as well, but I think that it is only a coincidence.
I will play around with the dosing a bit and maybe spread out the 3g through-out the day. Not sure if this is a viable option considering the lack of carbs in my diet and how strongly it effects my blood sugar.
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I tried 3g last night. The ladies at the pharmacy said to boil it, but the stove in my building wasn't working again...that's china for ya. So I just put the 3g in a cup with some water and microwaved it for 2.5 min. Then I strained it and put it in a plasic container to chill in the freezer. When it was cool, I chugged it. Not pleasant, but not too terrible either.
This stuff knocked me out. I suspect it was the berberine in it that tanked my already low blood sugar.
I've been on the velocity diet for a little over a week now, and my bowels don't seem to be "moving" like they used to. I definately noticed the mild laxative effect of this herb. If you take too much, I'm pretty sure you'd be spending the day on the toliet regretting doing so.
The next day I looked a lot "drier," despite a less than stellar water intake the day before. A few of my joints have been hurting as well, but I think that it is only a coincidence.
I will play around with the dosing a bit and maybe spread out the 3g through-out the day. Not sure if this is a viable option considering the lack of carbs in my diet and how strongly it effects my blood sugar.
MAxximal
Well-known member
narraboth
Member
Actually Ji Bo Di Huang Wan gave me morning wood, and gave my friend acne. (When I was in my early 20s, Liu Wei Di Huang Wan always made me have nocturnal ejeculation; but Ji Bo didn't have that effect)
In Chinese medicine book, Huang Bo was described as 'strengthen your sexual system'. So it's actually an stimulator, not a pacifier.
But it might stimulate in a different way than another group of medicines (such as red ginseng, deer's horn, etc). Actually, both Ji Bo Di Huang Wan and Gin Kuei Shan Qi Wan are 'BU' (add in) rather than 'Sheh' (leak out). Just the first one add your YIN, the later one add your YAN.
It's very interesting that how some herbs act on both. For example, the whole Goji plant is naturally a YIN medicine, the root distilled liquid cure my norcturnal ejeculation totally; but Goji berry can also help YAN a lot thus Chinese people warn a married man who is on a trip alone never take it. White ginseng is a YIN medicine but red one is a YAN medicine just after steamed. Transferring a herb from YIN to YAN is not that difficult, while its nature of add-in or leak-out is more stable.
For syndrome, those who don't have enough YIN don't necessarily have higher libido; in the contrast, they usually have bad sexual performance even when they have sex desire. A good chinese medicine doctor needs to separate 'too much YAN' and 'not enough YIN' carefully because they might look similar.
yes it's very complicate.
In Chinese medicine book, Huang Bo was described as 'strengthen your sexual system'. So it's actually an stimulator, not a pacifier.
But it might stimulate in a different way than another group of medicines (such as red ginseng, deer's horn, etc). Actually, both Ji Bo Di Huang Wan and Gin Kuei Shan Qi Wan are 'BU' (add in) rather than 'Sheh' (leak out). Just the first one add your YIN, the later one add your YAN.
It's very interesting that how some herbs act on both. For example, the whole Goji plant is naturally a YIN medicine, the root distilled liquid cure my norcturnal ejeculation totally; but Goji berry can also help YAN a lot thus Chinese people warn a married man who is on a trip alone never take it. White ginseng is a YIN medicine but red one is a YAN medicine just after steamed. Transferring a herb from YIN to YAN is not that difficult, while its nature of add-in or leak-out is more stable.
For syndrome, those who don't have enough YIN don't necessarily have higher libido; in the contrast, they usually have bad sexual performance even when they have sex desire. A good chinese medicine doctor needs to separate 'too much YAN' and 'not enough YIN' carefully because they might look similar.
yes it's very complicate.
Rhyno
Active member
Hey y'all, thought I'd give another update.
I realized that my joint soreness may be more than just coincidental. The way my joints hurts reminds me of ATD. I think that the huangbai might be causing it, but it is hard to tell since I am also taking proviron which can act as a weak AI. Gonna lower the dose to 2g and see if it gets better.
I realized that my joint soreness may be more than just coincidental. The way my joints hurts reminds me of ATD. I think that the huangbai might be causing it, but it is hard to tell since I am also taking proviron which can act as a weak AI. Gonna lower the dose to 2g and see if it gets better.
Rhyno
Active member
When I take it, my joints hurt. When I stop taking it, they stop hurting. This correlates to both my past experience with anti-estrogens as well as the literature regarding it's anti-estrogenic activity in-vitro.
MAxximal
Well-known member
so its true
narraboth
Member
how's your stomach feeling? isn't it to harsh for apetite?
and may I ask.... is that really you in the photo?
Rhyno
Active member
how's your stomach feeling? isn't it to harsh for apetite?
and may I ask.... is that really you in the photo?
After about a week or so of using it I noticed a reduction in appetite. But for me that was a good thing as I am dieting. Unfortunately, I stopped taking it a few days ago b/c of the joint pain.
I don't doubt it is used to treat joint pain in the elderly, but I would guess that it is used in combination with other herbs. I no expert in this area, I'm just going off of my own observations.
Ha ha, no, that is not actually me in the picture.