Calling Bull on Laxogenin and epicatechin

Toff

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I must have tried all kinds, of each, and Im calling the reviews bull and the products bunk.

Ive tried pills, potions ,lotions and its snake oil, different brands, different doses.

Not a responder? If I give you 50mg of Winnie or 600mg of test cyp will you be a non-responder? It eiither is a non hormonal anabolic or it isnt.


No gains, no strength, placebo.


Unless you can provide me with scientific studies of significance (1% increase in protein synthesis is not going to cut it - Id get more from eating a red meat product) All studies i read were from real synthetic compounds that these claim to enhance (queue myostatin muscly cow pics)

If you recall couple of years ago everyone was mega dosing Tribulus, ecdysterone, stinging nettle root, l-dopa (usp PowerFull), Bulbine then onto DAA and we look back and shout expensive BUNK (now inexpensive once hype dies)

Im drawing a line. No more.
 
jtmass

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Someone here gained some real size on his shoulders and traps (without even working out for traps), using an Epi product. lol.. and you saying that's placebo? Dang it!

P.S- Supplement companies already made their money on this ride and people will still waste their money on these..
 
iamyourfather

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Someone here gained some real size on his shoulders and traps (without even working out for traps), using an Epi product. lol.. and you saying that's placebo? Dang it!

P.S- Supplement companies already made their money on this ride and people will still waste their money on these..
believe what you want. I had actually better success with Ep1logue than with LGD.

And yes, ma traps got bigger while on Ep1logue and i dont train them isolated, never. Massacr3 gave me not that much except maybe less hurting joints.

oh and i also dont do deadlifts or something, so tell me - why did my traps grow this fast if the supplement has nothing to do with it?

they stayed nearly the same since Ep1logue, so they gained most of their size while ON Ep1logue.

Placebo would be „oh, i benched 30kg more while on Ep1logue“. Actual VISIBLE muscle growth and friends who notice the gains on said muscle groups are NOT placebo.

and before i forget - yes, my shoulders gained quite a bit of muscle. while on Ep1 i actually lowered the volume for delts (at some days i didnt even train them) because i already have good shoulders but i still put on a visible amount of muscle.
 

Sparta12

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If you didn't gain strength, size or get any gains while using them you are doing something wrong, really you should be gaining or progressing constantly without supps lol (somethings my go up or down depending on what you are doing)
 

ironkill

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The problem is probably your low testosterone as you stated you have in another thread. No supp will help until you get that figured out
 
LeanEngineer

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Yea epi and laxo are there to aid in the process! You're diet and training have to be on point for there to be results to in general.
 
justhere4comm

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What are your expectations from these products? I hope you're not looking to them for raising testosterone.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/304514-trt-alternative-dhea.html#post6054029

If your test is low which it appears to be from the above thread, and your search for an alternative due to costs ($$$) You're in the UK right?. What you need to do is get a more comprehensive blood test that demonstrates levels in all hormonal areas. (i.e., Thyroid)

You don't need high test to get through life and feel good. It's a number. What was the range for your T test?
I think your discussion here may be misplaced out of frustration versus expectations.
 
D3x

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I got some laxogenin to add with true shred and I really wasn't expecting much from it all.. but I gained a fair amount of size and strength
 
cheftepesh1

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I think stand alone they are not going to give amazing results. If you use in a stack, they can definitely aid in growth.
 

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Have to agree on the epi. Tried it a couple of times and it did nothing. Haven't tried Lax. I don't see how it would do much either though.
 
Rocket3015

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I have used both Laxogenin and Epicatechin with good results. I have also had a few of these products with No Results, so I believe the Brand and or Quality are the difference. I am a HUGE believer in True Shred and have Lost Fat and Gained muscle with it on 2 different runs !! musclemaker any thoughts on this subject ??
 
BloodManor

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I have ran legendary which is a Epi laxo product and had great results. Also ran a laxo product with pa and other stuff and felt nothing
 
50Magnum

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I'm doing a test run on follidrone 2.0 which has epicatechin in; so far I don't feel anything not going to lie felt a lil hungry taking without any food, but nothing major so far, endurance, strength, etc. but I'm on my 3rd day so obviously I have to wait. Have some Hitech Laxo that I will start taking in a few days cause Im seeing how the follidrone 2.0 works; I'm usually a hyper responder to most supplements if they don't work on me usually I call bull**** cause I'm taking oral SR9009 right now which has no bio-availability my first day on 10mg my endurance was alot noticable then usual, now not so much probably got half bunk or solution didnt mix up right since I'm taking higher doses. But even if I take 5 mg of creatine mono for a week straight my lifts will go back to 15-20lbs more not lie(im hyper responder probably I get super bloated on creatine thats why I barely take it). I will give update on how everything goes. From reading most of these threads it looks like the older individuals 30-40 are experiencing better results than the younger guys when it comes to epi or laxo just from my going through these threads. Testboosters dont do **** for guys like us in the 20s and teens; but guys in their 30s-40s it does somehow effect their mood or even give them a boost.
 
biscuit@gravy

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I'm going to try Ghost Size. It is made up of Epicatechin , betaine and creatine.

300mg epicatechin 90% for $33

I don't trust epicatechin or laxogenin and I don't have any expectations.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure that I will feel more of a difference with the creatine than the epicatechin extract lol ...
 

kelvarnsen

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I'm going to try Ghost Size. It is made up of Epicatechin , betaine and creatine.

300mg epicatechin 90% for $33

I don't trust epicatechin or laxogenin and I don't have any expectations.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure that I will feel more of a difference with the creatine than the epicatechin extract lol ...
I've been using Ghost Size for about a month and a half now and while I like that it is unflavored, I haven't noticed any difference after switching from Ergonine. I picked up 2 tubs on sale for 18 bucks each.
 
biscuit@gravy

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I've been using Ghost Size for about a month and a half now and while I like that it is unflavored, I haven't noticed any difference after switching from Ergonine. I picked up 2 tubs on sale for 18 bucks each.
So... is not a good deal, right?

where did you buy it?

thx
 

kelvarnsen

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So... is not a good deal, right?

where did you buy it?

thx
I'm not saying it's a bad deal. I wanted to try epicatechin, and Ghost Size was on sale (which is unfortunately over) so it was a no brainer for me. I see some slight recomp, I feel I'm a little leaner and have maintained the same mass but I have no idea if that is due to the epicatechin. I'm not a person who is expecting steroid like gains from natural supplements either. I typically buy the proven stuff like creatine, betaine, protein, and preworkout and if there is a deal on something I'll check it out but I am not a person who is seduced by hype in natural products.

You'd probably find it hard to find an epicatechin product along with the creatine, betaine, and BA for 33 so it's a fair price.
 

Toff

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What are your expectations from these products? I hope you're not looking to them for raising testosterone.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/304514-trt-alternative-dhea.html#post6054029
What you need to do is get a more comprehensive blood test that demonstrates levels in all hormonal areas. (i.e., Thyroid)
s.
Yep had tests for
thyroid
diabetes
cancer
prostate
had my blood pressure done
then a test for test.

However, Women, even women bodybuilders who have low test gain, its not a race for test - these are non-hormonal anyway, so they are geared towards building muscle regardless of your test levels. They do not aim to change test.
 
The Solution

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Yep had tests for
thyroid
diabetes
cancer
prostate
had my blood pressure done
then a test for test.

However, Women, even women bodybuilders who have low test gain, its not a race for test - these are non-hormonal anyway, so they are geared towards building muscle regardless of your test levels. They do not aim to change test.
You can’t supplement health issues.
If you think that’s the case then why would there be doctors or endocrinologist in their world?

Nothing will work if your health is out of whack
Just like you can’t supplement a bad diet

It doesn’t matter what you take if you have low test and have not had it treated or tried to fix your health an OTC epi or laxo is not the solution

You fall into the trap like many on here do. Thinking a pill or a powder will cause miracles and changes. That’s not how it works

Buy as many of these products as you want it’s better spent towards a doctor and addressing your health issues


The problem is probably your low testosterone as you stated you have in another thread. No supp will help until you get that figured out

Sad but true. People think adding a supplement , buying pills or powders is the answer. It’s not. It’s wasted time and money in the long run
 

Toff

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I'm doing a test run on follidrone 2.0 which has epicatechin in; so far I don't feel anything not going to lie felt a lil hungry taking without any food, but nothing major so far, endurance, strength, etc. but I'm on my 3rd day so obviously I have to wait. Have some Hitech Laxo that I will start taking in a few days cause Im seeing how the follidrone 2.0 works; I'm usually a hyper responder to most supplements if they don't work on me usually I call bull**** cause I'm taking oral SR9009 right now which has no bio-availability my first day on 10mg my endurance was alot noticable then usual, now not so much probably got half bunk or solution didnt mix up right since I'm taking higher doses. But even if I take 5 mg of creatine mono for a week straight my lifts will go back to 15-20lbs more not lie(im hyper responder probably I get super bloated on creatine thats why I barely take it). I will give update on how everything goes. From reading most of these threads it looks like the older individuals 30-40 are experiencing better results than the younger guys when it comes to epi or laxo just from my going through these threads. Testboosters dont do **** for guys like us in the 20s and teens; but guys in their 30s-40s it does somehow effect their mood or even give them a boost.
I can attest to creatine and none-bloaty formulas such as Green mag which DO make a difference.
Pre workouts - yep, in. Even new ones like the PES prolific - really get you int he mood - that'll help.

The others mentioned in the OP are not going to get you anything. Black lion, Anafuse 8 week run i did, nadda, before that laxo topical from BPS..epg laxzome.. and others. Big waste of cash.

Creatine, PWO and then something like usp max reps to give me power to work out hard is all that works.
 
Independent

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I would venture to say most of the positive reviews of natty products come solely from people eating and training better because they are "on" something.
 
D3x

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I would venture to say most of the positive reviews of natty products come solely from people eating and training better because they are "on" something.
Hmm.. weird that my diet got ****tier after I got on True Shred but I gained size and leaned out.. I've gotten back to proper diet here the last couple weeks, but for a little bit there I just was eating w.e. so long as my protein was high enough.. training didn't change really other than a few more burn out exercises..
 
soxbsbll05

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Nothing like people continuing to believe that supplements will cure all.

Say that word "supplement" out loud. What does it sound like? Oh, that's right, supplements are there to provide you with a little extra edge when your diet & training are on point. Hence the word "supplement".
 
IronTitan41

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lol sucks for you dude...

Me and many of my buddies have used laxo and epicatechin products and noticed positive effects

NOTHING works like steroids or prohormones do... so if you're expecting to put on 10 to 20 lbs of lean muscle using something as simple as laxo or epicatechin then sorry to say but you are just a damn fool

if you have reasonable or realistic expectations then you wont be letting yourself down when you use a natural anabolic supplement... especially if you're using it the right way and everything else is in line as far as your nutrition and training.

but if you're expecting some extreme results simply by using a few natural anabolic ingredients for a few short weeks then of course you will be let down because thats just NOT what they are capable of doing.

dont blame the supplements for you being a fool and having unrealistic expectations... nobody has ever said that they've gained that kind of mass from these things and if they did theyre either a noob or a liar

if you are expecting big gains then quit bein a pu$$y and run a cycle and stop complaining about not seeing results using mild natural anabolics

the guys that bitch and whine about these natty supps remind me of the same idiots that would buy jars of protein back in the day thinking they were going to use it for a few weeks and look like arnold or whichever bodybuilder that was on the packaging or magazine cover by the time they finish the jar and then complain about it saying it didnt work when they hardly even used it long enough or cycled it properly for it to even provide the long-term effects or benefits that most natural supplements are capable of

Nowadays everybody expects everything to work like a pre-workout where you take it and 30 minutes later you feel it working...

at the end of the day, they are just SUPPLEMENTS man.

meaning you just ADD or "SUPPLEMENT" them into your diet to compliment your current regimen as they can help accelerate you towards your goals a bit quicker than what your body would be able to without the use of them.

try training completely natural and not using any supplements at all and tell us how far you get
 
IronTitan41

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my buddies that do shows and compete in powerlifting meets actually use these natural anabolics very strategically IN BETWEEN cycles for maintenance purposes... they use them to help keep the gains when they come off cycle rather than to help them BUILD NEW MUSCLE

they have a clear purpose for competitive bodybuilders when time comes to come off cycle and try to return their body's to homeostasis after prolonged periods of steroid or androgen use

so again, it all depends on how they are being used and what you are expecting out of them; if you are expecting AAS or HGH-like effects, you will be disappointed using ANY natural supplement.

laxo and epicatechin are my go to ingredients when i finish PCT and have to cycle off for 2 months prior to hoppin on my next cycle or running my next stack
 
50Magnum

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whether or not guys complain or not; some people on this forum are comparing these "natty anabolics" to even SARMS when they cant even come close. I guarantee u if I have half ass my training, take sarms or even anabolics, eat like **** I will have gained way way more than I would if I trained hard and stayed on top of my diet. Cause you know why, my brother(siblings are closest in genetics) did exactly that and blew the **** up and got leaner. So it depends drugs and genetics are everything regardless of your training/diet. I know people who train like **** or what you call "overtrain" eat chicken wings and kool aid all day and will blow 90% of the people on this forum when it comes to physiques. The fact of the matter are people claiming these natural anabolics are close or even closest to Sarms just have to just stop that, thats whats causing all this negativity about these supplements. If these natty anabolics cant give strength gains/endurance like a supplement like SizeOn or Cell Mass(basically just creatines) which been around since I was a teenager the hype just has to stop.
 
IronTitan41

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whether or not guys complain or not; some people on this forum are comparing these "natty anabolics" to even SARMS when they cant even come close. I guarantee u if I have half ass my training, take sarms or even anabolics, eat like **** I will have gained way way more than I would if I trained hard and stayed on top of my diet. Cause you know why, my brother(siblings are closest in genetics) did exactly that and blew the **** up and got leaner. So it depends drugs and genetics are everything regardless of your training/diet. I know people who train like **** or what you call "overtrain" eat chicken wings and kool aid all day and will blow 90% of the people on this forum when it comes to physiques. The fact of the matter are people claiming these natural anabolics are close or even closest to Sarms just have to just stop that, thats whats causing all this negativity about these supplements. If these natty anabolics cant give strength gains/endurance like a supplement like SizeOn or Cell Mass(basically just creatines) which been around since I was a teenager the hype just has to stop.
EXACTLY brotha ^^^^

The ONLY sarm I would MAYBE compare them to would be a super MILD sarm like YK-11 or some ****... but a stronger sarm like LGD, Osta, or MK677 cant be compared to any natural anabolic that contains PLANT based ingredients.

Anything that is SYNTHETIC or MAN-MADE will have much more potent muscle building effects as they have specifically been engineered TO DO JUST THAT
 
50Magnum

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EXACTLY brotha ^^^^

The ONLY sarm I would MAYBE compare them to would be a super MILD sarm like YK-11 or some ****... but a stronger sarm like LGD, Osta, or MK677 cant be compared to any natural anabolic that contains PLANT based ingredients.

Anything that is SYNTHETIC or MAN-MADE will have much more potent muscle building effects as they have specifically been engineered TO DO JUST THAT
yk-11 aint mild, literally shuts you down and is one of the stronger sarms. what natty anabolic u comparing to a SARM would like to know......
 
IronTitan41

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They can all be suppressive if you run them for too long even the lesser effective compounds like YK11
 
RANS0M

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They have their place but they aren't miracle pills. I had better results from Epilogue than epic unleashed yet better results with strength unleashed than massacre. I dunno. I use these Inbetween cycles, during pct and etc...and they do their justice.

Yk isn't a sarm its a myostatin inhibitor with a dht steroid backbone.
 
IronTitan41

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That’s exactly what I was gonna say but refrained due to uncertainty. It’s structurally similar to testosterone from the research I’ve done but it’s main effects were on myostatin and certain receptors which testosterone itself activates as well. From everything I’ve read on it, it is one of the milder and lesser effective “SARMs”
 
50Magnum

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yk-11 literally shuts you down though, something like ostarine, lgd and s4 are mainly suppresive from what I hear.
 
rtmilburn

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They have their place but they aren't miracle pills. I had better results from Epilogue than epic unleashed yet better results with strength unleashed than massacre. I dunno. I use these Inbetween cycles, during pct and etc...and they do their justice.

Yk isn't a sarm its a myostatin inhibitor with a dht steroid backbone.
im pretty sure it is a Progesterone backbone.
 
Rikrodgers

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I’m currently running Ep1logue in the hopes it does more than previously tried Epi products have done. I’ve done Folli, Folli 2.0 and Anafuse (before they changed the ingredients and removed the HICA) with only the latter really increasing my endurance and strength, leading to a bit of extra lean mass gain... 2nd time I tried Anafuse, looking for similar results, I was quite disappointed.

I’ve heard good things about Ep1logue and I’m excited to see it working; I’m not changing up my training and doing anything majorly different with my eating/drinking habits either - I want to see if it makes a difference in itself!
 
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BloodManor

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yk-11 literally shuts you down though, something like ostarine, lgd and s4 are mainly suppresive from what I hear.
Sarms shut you down period - suppression is suppression. Some will drop you to zero other slightly above zero - there is not a difference. The way people word it makes it sound like they don’t need a pct
 
soxbsbll05

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I’m currently running Ep1logue in the hopes it does more than previously tried Epi products have done. I’ve done Folli, Folli 2.0 and Anafuse (before they changed the ingredients and removed the HICA) with only the latter really increasing my endurance and strength, leading to a bit of extra lean mass gain... 2nd time I tried Anafuse, looking for similar results, I was quite disappointed.

I’ve heard good things about Ep1logue and I’m excited to see it working; I’m not changing up my training and doing anything majorly different with my eating/drinking habits either - I want to see if it makes a difference in itself!
Ep1logue is the best natty anabolic I’ve used to date so hopefully you get good results!
 

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Sarms shut you down period - suppression is suppression. Some will drop you to zero other slightly above zero - there is not a difference. The way people word it makes it sound like they don’t need a pct
I wouldn't agree with that blanket statement. Not all SARMS are suppressive, and most of them aren't suppressive if used in the clinical doses. Ostarine's clinical dose was 3mg. Most gearheads are taking at least 25mg+ per day. That's 8x the studied dose.

I do agree though that you should run a pct no matter what just to be responsible. No matter what dose is used.
 
justhere4comm

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I wouldn't agree with that blanket statement. Not all SARMS are suppressive, and most of them aren't suppressive if used in the clinical doses. Ostarine's clinical dose was 3mg. Most gearheads are taking at least 25mg+ per day. That's 8x the studied dose.

I do agree though that you should run a pct no matter what just to be responsible. No matter what dose is used.
You now have to name any SARM which is not suppressive.
 
IronTitan41

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I wouldn't agree with that blanket statement. Not all SARMS are suppressive, and most of them aren't suppressive if used in the clinical doses. Ostarine's clinical dose was 3mg. Most gearheads are taking at least 25mg+ per day. That's 8x the studied dose.

I do agree though that you should run a pct no matter what just to be responsible. No matter what dose is used.
ya except nobody that uses them for bodybuilding purposes takes them at "clinical doses"
 
Rocket3015

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Just to add, and reiterate some points, natural supplements do work, but usually peoples expectations are not attainable. Hell, even some people that use gear have unreasonable expectations. Additionally, natural supplements are not going to work great if training, nutrition, and rest are not in place.

As far as Epi goes, I think there is enough proof, in terms of people using the product, showing it works. I have used Epi-Plex, MassMax, and several other Epi products and have noticed good size and strength gains. Did I put 30 pounds on my bench in 8 weeks, no, but if one thinks that is what Epi will yield, they are setting themselves up for disappointment.

In terms of Laxo, I think it is very hit or miss, even if everything else is on point. This is shown by user feedback and even personal use for me. I have used three different Laxo products and the only one that i saw some results from was Hi-Tech's Laxo. The main thing I noticed was better recovery.
 
50Magnum

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But Gaspari Size On puts 40lbs to my bench in 3 weeks...................................Actually true though
 
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The only way to know if natural supplements work is the way TheSolution did. Keep every aspect the same; training, diet and even supplements that you take. But, most of them don’t take this approach only because they want to get the most out of what they have invested on. So, diet is the most common aspect that’s changed and all the credit goes to the supplement.
 

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