caffeine good or bad for ketosis...again

[ssbackwards]

just an FYI

keto diets where you lose 15 lbs in 2 weeks are done wrong.

unless your eating 1300 carbs in a day, to even lose that weight initally is way off.

if you lost 5-9 lbs in a week thats basically because your normal diet consisted of 250-350g carb per day.

When done right that first week shouldnt result in that drastic loss.

 

[ax1]

Keto=Ketarded



Keto elicits no greater metabolic advantages to the regular calorie restricted diet. It also comes along with a lot of unpleasant side effects...

Thats study leaves me more questions than it proved answers.

 

[itzDodge]

Thats study leaves me more questions than it proved answers.

Why?

Pure Keto diets are no bueno, unless you have epilepsy there really isn't a reason to go for it

/thread

 

[ax1]

Why?

Pure Keto diets are no bueno, unless you have epilepsy there really isn't a reason to go for it

/thread

First and foremost, Ive had lifelong troubles with my appetite especially when it comes to carbohydrate type foods, and if it wasnt for keto dieting my appetite wouldn't be as controllable and Id be overweight/obese.

Keto dieting saved my life and has led me to live a quality of life that I want and Im never hungry.

 

[MAxximal]

We all know BCAAs to some appreciable level can cause an insulin spike, and that Leucine is the main culprit here. So, out of curiousity, I was attempting to research the precise leucine amount needed to elicit a an insulin blood serum rise (mg/dl) that would effectively kick someone out of ketosis and stumbled across this.

Dr Eades (Author of Protein Power), discusses Leucine in this thread.
Not overly uselful but figured I'd pass it along:
Invalid Link Removed

Here's Mauro DiPasquale's views (Anabolic Diet)
Invalid Link Removed

Both authors seem to dance around the issue, or avoid a definitive answer entirely. LOL

More ambiguity:
Invalid Link Removed

Leucine is exclusively ketogenic amino acid as it gives rise to keto acyl CoA which is converted into acyl CoA derivatives which includes HMG-CoA. This HMG-CoA is important as it takes part in the synthesis of cholesterol. It can also be broken down to acetoacetic acid and acetyl CoA.

Leucine is essential in regulating blood glucose level as well as in the growth and repair of bones, skin and muscles.

 

[itzDodge]

First and foremost, Ive had lifelong troubles with my appetite especially when it comes to carbohydrate type foods, and if it wasnt for keto dieting my appetite wouldn't be as controllable and Id be overweight/obese.

Keto dieting saved my life and has led me to live a quality of life that I want and Im never hungry.

If it helps you control your appetite and you need that then I guess stick to it, but just keep in mind keto comes with a bunch of side effects that are far from ideal, especially when restricting calories. Awesome that you've been able to progress with it so much and I'm not saying you won't lose weight, but I'm saying it has no advantages to a regular calorie restricted diet fat loss wise.

 

[ax1]

If it helps you control your appetite and you need that then I guess stick to it, but just keep in mind keto comes with a bunch of side effects that are far from ideal, especially when restricting calories. Awesome that you've been able to progress with it so much and I'm not saying you won't lose weight, but I'm saying it has no advantages to a regular calorie restricted diet fat loss wise.

Its certainly possible that they are both the same fat loss wise, but research is extremely limited in its infancy to come to definitive conclusions, and w/ variations of keto dieting and different ways to implement training, the research is further watered down. There are other questions and factors that are important as well, not only fat loss but muscle mass needs to be put in the equation as well one vs. the other...but the other has variations of doing it properly, and with a multitude of training regimes its impossible to fund all the research to prove anything other than anecdotal experience.

I personally suggest to others a well balanced diet as its easier to handle in the long run for most people, but it should be a matter of choice. Actually I usually advise against keto to all inexperienced dieters.

I can state Ive been keto dieting for almost 12 years now and Im completely healthy. Ive had some roller-coaster rides (personal life struggles and slipped,) and re-gained a large amount of weight while on keto (Atkins diet is something Im against, calorie counting is a must. At least I packed on muscle mass that I still carry most of today 50 pounds lighter). There is no indication in my on anecdotal experience that keto dieting is detrimental to my health, although that doesnt prove anything either.

I can go on and on about this, its an endless debate that lacks enough scientific studies to come to end all conclusions.

 

[itzDodge]

Its certainly possible that they are both the same fat loss wise, but research is extremely limited in its infancy to come to definitive conclusions, and w/ variations of keto dieting the research is further watered down. There are other questions and factors that are important as well, not only fat loss but muscle mass needs to be put in the equation as well one vs. the other...but the other has variations of doing it properly, and with a multitude of training regimes its impossible to fund all the research to prove anything other than anecdotal experience.

I personally suggest to others a well balanced diet as its easier to handle in the long run for most people, but it should be a matter of choice. Actually I usually advise against keto to all inexperienced dieters.

I can state Ive been keto dieting for almost 12 years now and Im completely healthy. Ive had some roller-coaster rides (personal life struggles and slipped,) and re-gained a large amount of weight while on keto (Atkins diet is something Im against, calorie counting is a must. At least I packed on muscle mass that I still carry most of today 50 pounds lighter). There is no indication in my on anecdotal experience that keto dieting is detrimental to my health, although that doesnt prove anything either.

I can go on and on about this, its an endless debate that lacks enough scientific studies to come to end all conclusions.

I can agree the more studies the marrier but there are too many variances in even regular dieting to consider a debate of whats best, its about what works for you. I love IF and made strength gains and size gains on it and it actually regulated my appetite very well, where as someone else may not be able to go 16 hours without food, my leptin levels seemed to get set pretty quick lol

I do like debating tho

 

[ssbackwards]

If it helps you control your appetite and you need that then I guess stick to it, but just keep in mind keto comes with a bunch of side effects that are far from ideal, especially when restricting calories. Awesome that you've been able to progress with it so much and I'm not saying you won't lose weight, but I'm saying it has no advantages to a regular calorie restricted diet fat loss wise.

IF you can prove one side effect (the way the people on here see keto (one cheat meal or 1 refeed every 7-10 days)) other then whats seen in diabetics (ketoacidosis) and things that are corrected by refeed/cheat meal, and i cannot refute it, then il eat all my words.

but liver problems from FFA- blunted by cheat meal via rise in insulin
low t3 increased from over feeding
flatness in muscle- carb ups
ketoacidosis- controlling blood sugar prior to dietary ketosis
Energy- When in ketosis that level gos up, its an energy subtrate prblem not caused by ketones
muscle loss- ketones preserve muscle tissue and in women, can even increase muscle mass.
Cholesterol- All fats can increase good cholesterol, triglycerides clog the LDLr in the liver causing increased circulating LDL, and triglycerides are formed from excess sugar.
There are definetly a few others but im not bout to list them all.

 

[itzDodge]

IF you can prove one side effect (the way the people on here see keto (one cheat meal or 1 refeed every 7-10 days)) other then whats seen in diabetics (ketoacidosis) and things that are corrected by refeed/cheat meal, and i cannot refute it, then il eat all my words.

but liver problems from FFA- blunted by cheat meal via rise in insulin-carb cycling
low t3 increased from over feeding-carb cycling
flatness in muscle- carb ups-carb cycling
ketoacidosis- controlling blood sugar prior to dietary ketosis-primarily a problem in type 1 diabetics
Energy- When in ketosis that level gos up, its an energy subtrate prblem not caused by ketones-carbs superior energy source
muscle loss- ketones preserve muscle tissue and in women, can even increase muscle mass.-carbs superior
Cholesterol- All fats can increase good cholesterol, triglycerides clog the LDLr in the liver causing increased circulating LDL, and triglycerides are formed from excess sugar. - cholesterol will improve with loss of body fat generally regardless of source of dietary calories
There are definetly a few others but im not bout to list them all.

Any time you reintroduce carbs you bump yourself out of ketosis and its no longer a pure ketogenic diets. Its carb cycling, ckd, tkd whatever the variant you've chosen its no longer straight keto. Straight keto is largely for people with metabolic syndromes or patients suffering from epilepsy. I think carb cycling is an awesome way to diet and if you have the ability to control your dietary intake to match a carb cylcing diet then go for it the results are awesome, but straight keto is no bueno for body builders/athletes.

Straight keto diets have lots of other small effects like mental fogginess, even your brain wants them carbs. Ketones are inferior to carbs

 

[ssbackwards]

Any time you reintroduce carbs you bump yourself out of ketosis and its no longer a pure ketogenic diets. Its carb cycling, ckd, tkd whatever the variant you've chosen its no longer straight keto. Straight keto is largely for people with metabolic syndromes or patients suffering from epilepsy. I think carb cycling is an awesome way to diet and if you have the ability to control your dietary intake to match a carb cylcing diet then go for it the results are awesome, but straight keto is no bueno for body builders/athletes.

Straight keto diets have lots of other small effects like mental fogginess, even your brain wants them carbs. Ketones are inferior to carbs

but its not carb cycling lol carb cycling is high medium and low days, lows giving you some direct sources.

CKD is mor pre and post workout carbs which doesnt make it a keto diet since it involves direct carbs.

your brain and respitory system run better off ketones especially your heart since it need consistant energy. Glucose is a limited substrate, only RBCs need it to function and the amount is not much, you get that from indirect sources.

Mental foggyness is in the first 3-7 days,.

Carb cycling is not what i described above. Ketogenic diet is a diet void in direct carbs and to be done properly under 34g carbs (TOTAL) per day.

the 1 day doesnt classify it as carb cyclinging. It classifies it as a means to correct and fix any issues that you may have caused in response to dieting, As it would with a traditional diet where you allow one meal once or twice a week.

 

[ssbackwards]

you have yet to disprove anything i have said.

your reasoning for it all is carbs are superior, when in fact its absolutley not the case. In terms of ATP production.

An increase in insulin is not only by carbs but can be by fat from GIP.

overfeeding with fats opposed to carbs also showed superior in T3 production.

theres studies all over the place for that.

K

 

[ax1]

but its not carb cycling lol carb cycling is high medium and low days, lows giving you some direct sources.

CKD is mor pre and post workout carbs which doesnt make it a keto diet since it involves direct carbs.

your brain and respitory system run better off ketones especially your heart since it need consistant energy. Glucose is a limited substrate, only RBCs need it to function and the amount is not much, you get that from indirect sources.

Mental foggyness is in the first 3-7 days,.

Carb cycling is not what i described above. Ketogenic diet is a diet void in direct carbs and to be done properly under 34g carbs (TOTAL) per day.

the 1 day doesnt classify it as carb cyclinging. It classifies it as a means to correct and fix any issues that you may have caused in response to dieting, As it would with a traditional diet where you allow one meal once or twice a week.

You should still be in keto taking as high as 80-100 grams of carbs a day. If you hear anyone saying they are out of keto ask them if they had their blood work to test if true. Many use keto strips, and urinary ketones doesn't necessarily indicate whats cycling in the blood.

 

[ssbackwards]

You should still be in keto taking as high as 80-100 grams of carbs a day. If you hear anyone saying they are out of keto ask them if they had their blood work to test if true. Many use keto strips, and urinary ketones doesn't necessarily indicate whats cycling in the blood.

your right you should however fat mass and more lean body mass will account for more of the total body mass loss.

There was a study showing.......... 38g carbs and less 98% fat was loss, 54g carbs less fat was loss but more muscle and when it got to 70 something carbs fat mass loss was 74% and the rest muscle tissue (this has to do with substrate availability and fats and aminos being burned during a metabolic shift that has consistently not taken place). dont qoute on carb amount i actually think the carb amounts we 34, 72, 110. i gotta find it though

Keto stips are **** anyway. If you drink a lot of water, they are diluted in urine. If you use most of them you get a weak reading.

 

[ax1]

There was a study showing.......... 38g carbs and less 98% fat was loss, 54g carbs less fat was loss but more muscle and when it got to 70 something carbs fat mass loss was 74% and the rest muscle tissue (this has to do with substrate availability and fats and aminos being burned during a metabolic shift that has consistently not taken place). dont qoute on carb amount i actually think the carb amounts we 34, 72, 110. i gotta find it though

Keto stips are **** anyway. If you drink a lot of water, they are diluted in urine. If you use most of them you get a weak reading.

Id like to see the overall caloric intake on that comparison...because cutting 22 grams of carbs = to an extra 88 gram caloric deficit.

Also, I really feel there is a difference between athletes and normal humans when it comes to these studies. A athlete may potentially benefit towards fat loss more so with a little more carbs if he further maximizes his training output. Basically, a potential short term loss of the keto state to utilize carbs to maximize a training session may be of further benefit than running keto through the training session.

These studies really need to be taken with a grain of salt, although I wouldnt totally discard them.

 

[ssbackwards]

Id like to see the overall caloric intake on that comparison...because cutting 22 grams of carbs = to an extra 88 gram caloric deficit.

Also, I really feel there is a difference between athletes and normal humans when it comes to these studies. A athlete may potentially benefit towards fat loss more so with a little more carbs if he further maximizes his training output. Basically, a potential short term loss of the keto state to utilize carbs to maximize a training session may be of further benefit than running keto through the training session.

These studies really need to be taken with a grain of salt, although I wouldnt totally discard them.

Invalid Link Removed

I got to find that study still searching i remember the number 34 stuck in my head for a reason.

 

[ssbackwards]

still looking for study im pretty sure i have it printed and highlighted at home, mustve been 3 years ago i saw it.

Invalid Link Removed This is ketosis and muscle mass or VLCD and muscle mass.

yadda yadda.

 

[ssbackwards]

more useful info.


Invalid Link Removed

think im closing in on the 50pg mark on google like a million to go im determined to find it.

 

[itzDodge]

Id like to see the overall caloric intake on that comparison...because cutting 22 grams of carbs = to an extra 88 gram caloric deficit.

Also, I really feel there is a difference between athletes and normal humans when it comes to these studies. A athlete may potentially benefit towards fat loss more so with a little more carbs if he further maximizes his training output. Basically, a potential short term loss of the keto state to utilize carbs to maximize a training session may be of further benefit than running keto through the training session.

These studies really need to be taken with a grain of salt, although I wouldnt totally discard them.

iirc a study I skimmed over basically summed up athletes are more effecient at utilizing fat already, carbing up before an exercise session only decreased fatty acid oxidation very minimally in the athletic group, where as the non athletic group burned much less fat when carbs were consumed prior to training

I, like ss, must go hunting for it now

nevermind it was an AA article
Invalid Link Removed

 

[ssbackwards]

iirc a study I skimmed over basically summed up athletes are more effecient at utilizing fat already, carbing up before an exercise session only decreased fatty acid oxidation very minimally in the athletic group, where as the non athletic group burned much less fat when carbs were consumed prior to training

I, like ss, must go hunting for it now

nevermind it was an AA article
Invalid Link Removed

i sweat i went thru 100 pages in google.. my eyes are bleeding. i know i have it!

Mustve seen it a year ago.

I know i saved it. May be on company comp. not sure. Will dig.

 

[itzDodge]

i sweat i went thru 100 pages in google.. my eyes are bleeding. i know i have it!

Mustve seen it a year ago.

I know i saved it. May be on company comp. not sure. Will dig.

do it, like I said still here to learn anything/everything I can, the more data the merrier

 

[dirty321]

So If Atkins diet it bunk and Keto diets along with it are bunk then what type of diet is more effective? I can do an atkins diet becouse its easy to do. Simply don't buy food with carbs in it and your golden. Do any of the diets that attempt to restrict a certain particular nutrient altogether work at all? Would restricting fat be effective? What about restricting protein? or straight calories? Im just simply trying to figure out peoples opinions on the most effective type of diet for pure weight loss...

 

[itzDodge]

So If Atkins diet it bunk and Keto diets along with it are bunk then what type of diet is more effective? I can do an atkins diet becouse its easy to do. Simply don't buy food with carbs in it and your golden. Do any of the diets that attempt to restrict a certain particular nutrient altogether work at all? Would restricting fat be effective? What about restricting protein? or straight calories? Im just simply trying to figure out peoples opinions on the most effective type of diet for pure weight loss...

Read the thread

Saying to just avoid carbs and you're good is plain retarded. If you want to lose weight you have to cut calories and you need to count them period.

Keto, IF, regular deficits all have their merits and plenty good on paper and some don't play out. Just focus on counting your calories and staying below maintenance. Adequate protein, fats and carbs too for the average person losing weight is just fine.

 

[ax1]

So If Atkins diet it bunk and Keto diets along with it are bunk then what type of diet is more effective? I can do an atkins diet becouse its easy to do. Simply don't buy food with carbs in it and your golden. Do any of the diets that attempt to restrict a certain particular nutrient altogether work at all? Would restricting fat be effective? What about restricting protein? or straight calories? Im just simply trying to figure out peoples opinions on the most effective type of diet for pure weight loss...

Its a bit more complicated than just cutting carbs if you want good long term success. If you want to learn more about ketogenic dieting Id look into Lyle McDonalds website, and his books as keto dieting is much more complex than what can be posted here. Yes, I do not suggest Atkins diet, been there done that its a recipe for long term failure, and is not optimal for athletes imo.
Invalid Link Removed

As itzDodge states...having a balanced diet in a caloric deficit will be your best option while you do your own research and your ready to experiment if you choose to do so. 500 below is optimal, 1000 is doable but there are more risks involved with muscle loss and quicker drops in Leptin.

 

[kingdong]

Herein lies the principle issue I have with a straight keto diet

CKD or carb cycling can be used for bodybuilders to get lean but I see straight keto as an EPIC FAILURE.

Keto may have its place in the main stream and especially for sedentary crowd or the pre-diabetic crowd as a viable means to avoid further progression into type II.

For bodybuilding, it can simply be too catabolic for bbers in addition to being to stringent on macro's that support a bodybuilder's overall needs.

I'm a low carber and grow just fine but the key for me is dilligent macro ratio's not avoidance.

I actually am carb cycling. I just whant to know whats good on my keto days. I do five days carb free, and two days carb heavy.

 

[kingdong]

carbs always under 34g (including fiber) and GDAs every meal.

How is fiber bad?

 

[ax1]

I actually am carb cycling. I just whant to know whats good on my keto days. I do five days carb free, and two days carb heavy.

eggs, steak, chicken, veggies.

Personally Ill have 2 egg omelets with either soybeans or tofu, and I may or may not have a 3rd omelet or eat about 1/3 pound of meat with veggies. I usually add veggies such as broccoli or cauliflower to my egg omelets. I have 3 protein shakes that day...which isnt the most optimal idea but works for me and its a tasty treat.

Find what works for you, everybody has different taste buds, just count the macros.

Ill add I drink about 20 grams of psyllium husks in the evening on a empty stomach to aid in digestion and help me feel full.

 

[kingdong]

eggs, steak, chicken, veggies.

Personally Ill have 2 egg omelets with either soybeans or tofu, and I may or may not have a 3rd omelet or eat about 1/3 pound of meat with veggies. I usually add veggies such as broccoli or cauliflower to my egg omelets. I have 3 protein shakes that day...which isnt the most optimal idea but works for me and its a tasty treat.

Find what works for you, everybody has different taste buds, just count the macros.

Ill add I drink about 20 grams of psyllium husks in the evening on a empty stomach to aid in digestion and help me feel full.

Oh I know all that LOL. Thanks though. I was just referrng to caffeine.

 

[ax1]

Oh I know all that LOL. Thanks though. I was just referrng to caffeine.

Im a caffeine junky on keto. Im a caffeine junky if not doing keto. If I die, I want to be buried with coffee beans, not soil.

 

[OrganicShadow]

Yes it is!! These guys got me googling leptin now just so I can understand and follow along with the convo

I think you'll find it just as interesting as I did when I learned about it. Changed my whole game plan

 

[Gutterpump]

but its not carb cycling lol carb cycling is high medium and low days, lows giving you some direct sources.

CKD is mor pre and post workout carbs which doesnt make it a keto diet since it involves direct carbs.

your brain and respitory system run better off ketones especially your heart since it need consistant energy. Glucose is a limited substrate, only RBCs need it to function and the amount is not much, you get that from indirect sources.

Mental foggyness is in the first 3-7 days,.

Carb cycling is not what i described above. Ketogenic diet is a diet void in direct carbs and to be done properly under 34g carbs (TOTAL) per day.

the 1 day doesnt classify it as carb cyclinging. It classifies it as a means to correct and fix any issues that you may have caused in response to dieting, As it would with a traditional diet where you allow one meal once or twice a week.

What you describe is a TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) where you take carbs only around workout, with the thought that they are burned and then sucked back into glycogen stores... possibly hitting ketosis at other times of the day if carbs are kept low enough around the workout (say, 50-80 grams total, just around the workout). Likely not to hit ketosis though.

In a CKD, you only have a 1.5 day carb up on the weekend and restrict carbs to < 10-30 grams / day during the week (or thereabouts depending on sensitivity). You will hit ketosis for several days during the week. It is definitely a ketogenic diet, and it definitely is the real definition of carb cycling.

 

[itzDodge]

Im a caffeine junky on keto. Im a caffeine junky if not doing keto. If I die, I want to be buried with coffee beans, not soil.

Lol, the feeling is mutual. Love me some caffeine

 

[Gutterpump]

I'm hooked on coffee/caffeine too. I only drink espresso or use a french press now, for extra dark french roast goodness. People who take in lots of caffeine should look into inositol supplementation (caffeine depletes it)

 

[ssbackwards]

What you describe is a TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) where you take carbs only around workout, with the thought that they are burned and then sucked back into glycogen stores... possibly hitting ketosis at other times of the day if carbs are kept low enough around the workout (say, 50-80 grams total, just around the workout). Likely not to hit ketosis though.

In a CKD, you only have a 1.5 day carb up on the weekend and restrict carbs to < 10-30 grams / day during the week (or thereabouts depending on sensitivity). You will hit ketosis for several days during the week. It is definitely a ketogenic diet, and it definitely is the real definition of carb cycling.

CKD is a keto diet with a carb up gotcha. carb cycling is just that cycling carbs usually high low and medium days, thats how its been. i wouldnt call it CKD id call it a keto diet with a meal a week alowance,. 1.5 days is a bit much which is why anabolic diet/metabolic diet is both good and bad unless you controll carb alotments.. and aa TKD isnt really a keto because of direct carbs. That makes it a low carb diet.

 

[Gutterpump]

CKD = cyclical ketogenic diet.

Cyclical means to cycle, aka carb cycling, in the standard sense this is the main go to carb cycling diet. I get what you mean though. But we're getting caught up over semantics

There are many ways to carb cycle, but the most effective way is a CKD as it allows for glycogen super-saturation. Low carb days and high carb days, that's not really cycling if it's for one day, that's like pulsing / alternating days.

I don't do CKD's anymore though, Paleo is it. Carb cycling can cause havoc with insulin because of the rollercoaster it causes.

 

[ssbackwards]

and eating 5-6 times a day with carbs every meal can cause issues with leptin and insulin.

its all lose lose lol

**** it. i eat 2x a day only protein and fat.

 

[ssbackwards]

got it... Invalid Link Removed

 

[ssbackwards]

Because of metabolic adaptations to prolonged changes in diet composition, the results of such short-term studies cannot be applied to longer-term situations. Young et al. compared three diets containing the same amounts of calories (1,800 kcal/day) and protein (115 g/day) but differing in carbohydrate content [Invalid Link Removed]. After nine weeks on the 30-g, 60-g and 104-g carbohydrate diets, weight loss was 16.2, 12.8 and 11.9 kg and fat accounted for 95, 84, and 75% of the weight loss, respectively.

 

[ax1]

got it... Invalid Link Removed

Thanks for finding that, its bookmarked will read in the morning!

 

[ssbackwards]

read it yet lol