Better for Hypertrophy? Low Reps vs. High Reps.

[Alan1]

The main question I have is that if you put a PLer on the same amount and type of gear that a BBer uses, could you have a large PLer who looks like a BBer?

I'd say Dave Gulledge would be a good example...

 

[avega17]

When I was younger I stuck to higher reps. Typically sets of 17, 15, 12, 10, descending pyramids, usually nothing lower than 8. I did well here and made good progress, lots of drop sets and super sets, lots of metabolic fatigue and muscular endurance.

Then I stuck to your typical 8-12, not much different and didn't see any drastic changes. In my opinion,this range is the "in between" zone and therefore you don't realize the effect of staying on the more extreme ends of the continuum.

Lately, I have been trying lower rep sets in order to increase the loads and get a bit stronger. When I do low rep sets, I like to do density sets or just lots of sets per exercise. A density set would looks like this: grab a weight you can hit 5-6 reps with, but do 4 reps, rest 20-30 seconds and do another 4 reps, rest 20-30 seconds and do 4 reps. This is one set and then rest about 1.5-2 minutes and do it again for a total of 3-4 sets. This will really get you going and essentially its a 12 rep set through a rest-pause method. Otherwise, I would do 5-6 sets of 5-6 reps. I have never really worked under 4-6 reps. A good way to work low reps is do the main exercise for the day via the density method and then do the rest in the 6-8 rep range via normal sets, even hitting a higher rep isolation movement as a finisher.

The problem with lower reps and high volume like this is burn out. So I like to follow a DUP cycle and alternate the intensities from workout to workout.

In the end, it's all about stimulating the muscle properly, no matter the rep range. Every movement that you perform should be focused on activating the right muscles through a full ROM (big time mind muscle connection and just overall posture and positioning). No matter the rep range, you are doing it right when you finish your session and your feel like your muscles were hit well and you don't have any pain elsewhere because you had bad form.

 

[Jiigzz]

Here's an old article from Bret Contreras and Brad Schoenfeld:

https://www.t-nation.com/training/why-bodybuilders-are-more-jacked-than-powerlifters

Funnily enough, ive read that and I agree completely with It. In saying that, my main point is that doing both can still produce results (look at dave tate or other PLers who then lean out).

Specificity is key but both can influence hypertrophy to some degree. Gets skewed slightly with drugs and stuff though

 

[plifter42]

Usually mix of both. For lats and calves, high reps respond better.

 

[bonbon]

For me, 12-15reps seems to be the sweet spot, with occasional switch to either low (1-3) or super high (20-30) for a shock treatment

 

[choccyswag]

I believe its not quantity, but quality that counts when I w/o

This means.. make every rep count, not just going thru motions, use pre stretch and squeeze at the top! I also read somewhere about 'effective reps' (maybe on here? not sure lol)

So basically the last few reps are the ones that gives you the results.

 

[plifter42]

So basically the last few reps are the ones that gives you the results.

I think I heard Arnold say this in one of his training videos, when he talks about training to failure every set. Seems to work

 

[Abe Lincoln]

"I don't start counting until it starts to hurt"

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I believe its not quantity, but quality that counts when I w/o

This means.. make every rep count, not just going thru motions, use pre stretch and squeeze at the top! I also read somewhere about 'effective reps' (maybe on here? not sure lol)

So basically the last few reps are the ones that gives you the results.

One of the reasons why rest-pause can be so effective; it keeps you in the fatigue zone without sacrificing tension/load, and you get significantly more effective reps for every rep you do compared to straight sets.

 

[Shasow]

This morning I did 100 reps for each bicep with a can of baked beans and got an incredible pump. I did notice some hypertrophy this evening.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

This morning I did 100 reps for each bicep with a can of baked beans and got an incredible pump. I did notice some hypertrophy this evening.

Lmao

 

[Spaniard]

Both, there's really no either or when it comes to training in my experience. Good thread

 

[smike]

This morning I did 100 reps for each bicep with a can of baked beans and got an incredible pump. I did notice some hypertrophy this evening.

Imagine the gains you would have made if you actually had eaten the beans

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Imagine the gains you would have made if you actually had eaten the beans

Spinach>
At least that is what Popeye says

 

[MidwestBeast]

Hypertrophy - high reps




Side tangent: I train all sorts of different ways, and I just finished up my volume week and I always love it. The stretch and pump is just the best (painful)

 

[hewhoisripped]

More volume is better for hypertrophy. The question is, how do I achieve more volume? The short term answer is high rep ranges (easier to do 10 sets of 10 reps than 100 sets of your 1RM). The long term answer is if you periodize your training you can "get stronger" which will allow you to lift more weight for any given number of sets/reps, and thus achieve more volume with the same number of reps/sets.

So overnight: high reps
Long term: smart periodized training, injury prevention, etc.

 

[Gutterpump]

A combination of both. We have more than 1 type of muscle fiber, train them both for optimal gains. Pretty simple. Not sure why anyone would stick to one specific rep range.

 

[Gutterpump]

I always used to stick to volume training, but when I added in strength training (1-5 rep range) with volume work, $hit got real.

 

[KilaCali]

I always used to stick to volume training, but when I added in strength training (1-5 rep range) with volume work, $hit got real.

lol Hell yes! that deep soreness!

i agree, fastwitch slowtwitch, even thogh they say you do enough reps youll eventually hit the fasttwitch as the slow twitch ones begin to fail... i still prefer to hit them at 110% jst like muscle groups

 

[NewAgeMayan]

lol Hell yes! that deep soreness!

i agree, fastwitch slowtwitch, even thogh they say you do enough reps youll eventually hit the fasttwitch as the slow twitch ones begin to fail... i still prefer to hit them at 110% jst like muscle groups

Plus there can be a degree of fibre conversion.

 

[z28spd]

^^^ most advanced bodybuilders that ive met or seen train will say its not how much you do, but how you do it. The last time i asked my mentor how many reps he laughed and said when your f#&$kn your girl you hit it till you cant anymore right? So when you lift do the same. Its a based off feeling and intensity. If you do two sets of 10, then on your third set your pump is crazy and you feel you can do five more, why would you stop?

the reason you would stop is so you can add more frequency during the week and increase your overall volume higher rather than going to failure every training session, resulting in lower volume.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

the reason you would stop is so you can add more frequency during the week and increase your overall volume higher rather than going to failure every training session, resulting in lower volume.

No one said anything about lower volume...

 

[Matthew1237]

I think it's mostly a mix of high volume, frequency and *progressive loading* this is why lower reps are great since it allows for consistent progression and strength increases. Doesn't matter how many reps you do - if you never increase the weight or can't increase it often enough #minimalgains

 

[z28spd]

No one said anything about lower volume...

When you train to failure every session you limit your ability to add volume....

try squatting everyday to failure and let me know how that works out for ya

I was just responding to what you said you're mentor told you

 

[NattyForLife]

Ive tried coming up with a ever changing frequency split....say for instance we use the body part "back"...you hit back once every 7th day, then you go to every 6th day, then every 5th day, then every 4th day and then every 3rd day. Then after the every 3rd day you go back to every 7th day(a week). You could go to every 2nd day but if you want, but if i made this split, you would have to be very flexible with time. Your split would also change weekly! Ive thought about putting some effort into this. With this split you can keep volume up during the weeks with high frequency.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

When you train to failure every session you limit your ability to add volume....

try squatting everyday to failure and let me know how that works out for ya

I was just responding to what you said you're mentor told you

squat everyday till failure? Once again no one said anything about that Smh.

On the topic of volume: ive seen dudes come home from jail time and time again who dont have science supplements or excessive nutrition, and they are brolic as all h3!! . these dudes do an absurd amount of volume and train every set till they cant do anymore. They acheive hypertrophy.

All i said was that specifying a rep range cant limit you and its best to listen to your body. If your supposed to do 10 reps and you can do 11, why wouldnt you? Because some cookie cutter plan told you to do 10? Listen to your body.

 

[z28spd]

squat everyday till failure? Once again no one said anything about that Smh.

On the topic of volume: ive seen dudes come home from jail time and time again who dont have science supplements or excessive nutrition, and they are brolic as all h3!! . these dudes do an absurd amount of volume and train every set till they cant do anymore. They acheive hypertrophy.

All i said was that specifying a rep range cant limit you and its best to listen to your body. If your supposed to do 10 reps and you can do 11, why wouldnt you? Because some cookie cutter plan told you to do 10? Listen to your body.

you're still missing the whole concept. Yes great, you see guys from jail training to failure every set. awesome. I'm not saying you should never train to failure. It is a great tool to use, just not all the time.

You can train to failure and still do what YOU might consider high volume (high volume for one person may not be high volume to another). You would be able to do even more volume if you didn't train to failure every set/workout. What do you not understand about this? Perhaps do some research into daily undulating periodization. Mike Zourdos and Ben Esgro are a great place to start.

 

[Matthew1237]

squat everyday till failure? Once again no one said anything about that Smh.

On the topic of volume: ive seen dudes come home from jail time and time again who dont have science supplements or excessive nutrition, and they are brolic as all h3!! . these dudes do an absurd amount of volume and train every set till they cant do anymore. They acheive hypertrophy.

All i said was that specifying a rep range cant limit you and its best to listen to your body. If your supposed to do 10 reps and you can do 11, why wouldnt you? Because some cookie cutter plan told you to do 10? Listen to your body.

I would think - and I say this non argumentatively. That you would do 10 so that you're staying behind the curve. You don't have to train at 100% to get gains. It's better to do 10 when you can do 11, and 11 when you can do 12. And so on and so forth so you can always progress. Instead of running yourself down progressing faster than you can continually maintain.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

you're still missing the whole concept. Yes great, you see guys from jail training to failure every set. awesome. I'm not saying you should never train to failure. It is a great tool to use, just not all the time.

You can train to failure and still do what YOU might consider high volume (high volume for one person may not be high volume to another). You would be able to do even more volume if you didn't train to failure every set/workout. What do you not understand about this? Perhaps do some research into daily undulating periodization. Mike Zourdos and Ben Esgro are a great place to start.

No lol. Im all the way good. Good luck to you.

As a matter of fact lol heres a good place to start: Arnold. He trained everything twice a week balls to the wall. Check out pumping iron about his thoughts on training to failure.

 

[EMPIREMIND]

I would think - and I say this non argumentatively. That you would do 10 so that you're staying behind the curve. You don't have to train at 100% to get gains. It's better to do 10 when you can do 11, and 11 when you can do 12. And so on and so forth so you can always progress. Instead of running yourself down progressing faster than you can continually maintain.

The "statement running yourself down" would never happen when you listen to your body. Which is my point exactly. Listen to your body. Recovery is the most vital part to growth.

 

[Shasow]

Yeah man but sometimes we push a little too far and feel a little ****ty thats life I feel like that right now so just injected 100mg of glutathione in my arse lol. Its a fine balance but you are entirely correct. IMO the very most important thing is being able to listen to your body and know what to do and when to do it. That isn't a skill learnt overnight however.

 

[Gutterpump]

I am personally not a fan of training to failure anymore (because some days will obviously be better than others leaving you with inconsistent workouts. Plus there's the whole leaving yourself open to injury thing).

Progressive loading is all that really matters. I'm also a fan of hitting everything twice a week, one day for strength, one day for volume. Out of everything I've tried, this has worked best for me.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Well I guess as interesting as these discussions can be in terms of trying to establish some sort of universal objective best practice standard, at the end of the day no-one can really argue against anything that "works best for the individual".

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Well I guess as interesting as these discussions can be in terms of trying to establish some sort of universal objective best practice standard, at the end of the day no-one can really argue against anything that "works best for the individual".

100 bro. U hit the nail on the head

 

[KilaCali]

Well I guess as interesting as these discussions can be in terms of trying to establish some sort of universal objective best practice standard, at the end of the day no-one can really argue against anything that "works best for the individual".

that's it man. not one person is the same as the other. it depends what side of the street your standing on, what you had for breakfast, what is going on in your life, your age, your genetics, your goals and so much more when your discussing what works for YOU, or what works for ME or anyone else for that matter.

 

[amarula]

That is true to a degree. What can muddy the issue is that the same person can react differently to different rep ranges of the span of their lifting career. So IMO what is most important is how long have they been lifting and what have they mainly used in the past.

The best gains I've experienced was all under 6 reps and in muscle groups that many would think that high reps would work better, like lats, quads and even bi's. but as you said all I did for years before that was lift above 8 reps...

 

[Shasow]

Best gains I've made have come whenever I changed something up within the training. Anything 'new' the body responds very well to IMO.

 

[KilaCali]

Best gains I've made have come whenever I changed something up within the training. Anything 'new' the body responds very well to IMO.

you got that right! ive even gone from weight training to just doing body squats and body weight lunges and calf raises and got my legs sore as **** instead of using weight,

 

[Shasow]

Yeah I've just gone from the typical hypertrophy training to lifting heavy as **** type training and I can see and feel the difference quickly. But this will only work until it doesn't then mix things up again. No need to mix things up any less than once a month though. Some guys get carried away

 

[KilaCali]

Yeah I've just gone from the typical hypertrophy training to lifting heavy as **** type training and I can see and feel the difference quickly. But this will only work until it doesn't then mix things up again. No need to mix things up any less than once a month though. Some guys get carried away

I agree, I've actually stuckwith a one muscle group a day 5 days a week program and will go a couple weeks at p to 85% 1RM weight and basically I can tell right away that my body needs something differen wether it be a 2-5 rep day mixed with high rep burnot sets, or 8-12 all day with super/tri/quad sets, sometimes throw in drop sets the last couple moves I do, sometimes throw in 75-100rep sets.. but sticking to the main plan always (back/chest/legs & core/shoulders/arms/xtra credit possibly cardio/HIIT/tabata day once or twice a month and this has worked for me for the last 4-6 years, as well as several people I have trained with minor adjustments to suit them and their weaknesses..

I really think that TRULY getting in sync with your body/the mind muscle connection/feeling out your weaknesses for the day and possible borderline injuries to prevent by not doing too much weight or reps, possibly not working that area at all or possibly switching the day completely up for an entire different muscle group, maybe even taking the day off if you feel your CNS isn't recovered enough and your immune system is just going to crash and get you sick... once I really discovered that, I've ALWAYS got the fll 110% out of my routines and avoided MAJOR problems for many years to come but noticing the slightest discomfort or awkwardness.. from experience I learned the hard way years ago my body was ttellin me to leave it alone and within a couple sets BAM! surprise(but no surprise, I told ya so)body says lol...

hope this helps some of you all out
yates84 mrkleen73 nbshazeezee mixedup jdg76
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you guys in this tthread?? really interesting and good info/debate!

 

[NoAddedHmones]

More volume is better for hypertrophy. The question is, how do I achieve more volume? The short term answer is high rep ranges (easier to do 10 sets of 10 reps than 100 sets of your 1RM). The long term answer is if you periodize your training you can "get stronger" which will allow you to lift more weight for any given number of sets/reps, and thus achieve more volume with the same number of reps/sets.

So overnight: high reps
Long term: smart periodized training, injury prevention, etc.

Good good answer.

 

[choccyswag]

I was talking to my trainer about this today and he said about 70 reps per muscle group in total is a good goal to aim for. Too much or too less is not ideal for muscles to be stimulated. 70 QUALITY reps though. and most routines would divide this into 3-4 sets.

I like hewhoisripped; post as well

 

[NoAddedHmones]

I was talking to my trainer about this today and he said about 70 reps per muscle group in total is a good goal to aim for. Too much or too less is not ideal for muscles to be stimulated. 70 QUALITY reps though. and most routines would divide this into 3-4 sets.

I like hewhoisripped; post as well

Putting an arbitrary number on something like that is silly seeing as its a highly individualised variable.

 

[choccyswag]

Putting an arbitrary number on something like that is silly seeing as its a highly individualised variable.

the latest series from Erick Helms is saying also that 40-70 is enough for muscle growth? for natural athletes though. so its not as random as it sounds. I suppose the point he was trying to teach me is that more is not always better.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

the latest series from Erick Helms is saying also that 40-70 is enough for muscle growth? for natural athletes though. so its not as random as it sounds. I suppose the point he was trying to teach me is that more is not always better.

Im not sure who he is? Anyways you have stated it yourself in the bolded above, more is not always better, but for some more is better. Which falls back on my statement that it an individualised phenomena.

 

[choccyswag]

He has done a lot of research about this infact. but you're right! in the end its up to the person how they want to train. Its nice to have some guidelines though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl8v6frDJHc

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Putting an arbitrary number on something like that is silly seeing as its a highly individualised variable.

For sure, my body can take a beating like no other and still spring back. High volume like 10x10 twice a week, even messed around with 500+reps. Age plays a big role in this as well.

 

[Shasow]

I agree, I've actually stuckwith a one muscle group a day 5 days a week program and will go a couple weeks at p to 85% 1RM weight and basically I can tell right away that my body needs something differen wether it be a 2-5 rep day mixed with high rep burnot sets, or 8-12 all day with super/tri/quad sets, sometimes throw in drop sets the last couple moves I do, sometimes throw in 75-100rep sets.. but sticking to the main plan always (back/chest/legs & core/shoulders/arms/xtra credit possibly cardio/HIIT/tabata day once or twice a month and this has worked for me for the last 4-6 years, as well as several people I have trained with minor adjustments to suit them and their weaknesses..

I really think that TRULY getting in sync with your body/the mind muscle connection/feeling out your weaknesses for the day and possible borderline injuries to prevent by not doing too much weight or reps, possibly not working that area at all or possibly switching the day completely up for an entire different muscle group, maybe even taking the day off if you feel your CNS isn't recovered enough and your immune system is just going to crash and get you sick... once I really discovered that, I've ALWAYS got the fll 110% out of my routines and avoided MAJOR problems for many years to come but noticing the slightest discomfort or awkwardness.. from experience I learned the hard way years ago my body was ttellin me to leave it alone and within a couple sets BAM! surprise(but no surprise, I told ya so)body says lol...

hope this helps some of you all out
yates84 mrkleen73 nbshazeezee mixedup jdg76
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you guys in this tthread?? really interesting and good info/debate!

Good post.

 

[Montego1]

Personally I've always responded better to more volume but not really higher reps.

Multiple sets (5-6)of 5-8 reps focusing on TUT with the heaviest weights possible has produced a ton of growth this last year for myself.

 

[KilaCali]

Good post.

thanks man, appreciate it! everytime I train someone or people ask me about "what do you do" I try to explain that mind muscle to them, cause without it and proper form, your never gonna get it right and your going to set yourself up for more injuries then anything..