So far my search has only led be to Trenavar. If you cut the 17aa out, Designers, and of course dont even consider andros; the only thing I find available anywhere is Trenavar. Even though the min dose seems to be 80mg it at least gets results from what I have read. I am trying to design a popper cycle and was looking for something to preface Epistane, but if Trenavar is the only non-methyl that packs on lean mass I'll switch out the Epi for Epi-Tren [spawn] Am I missing something obviuose? Please say yes and give me a better suggestion.