Best ideas for no chinese sourced supps

[emiliozapata]

Looking at ideas for an all chinese free supp regimen- thoughts so far-

1 -MACA- almost universally sourced from andes
2- hemp- homegrown or canada sourced
3- Lentein- trying to confirm non china source
4- Robuvit- EU sourced
5- cordyceps- MST claims US grown
6- 20???????

 

[Carnivorecon]

Just curious whats the reason, is it quality, availability etc?

 

[emiliozapata]

Just curious whats the reason, is it quality, availability etc?

Quality/tainting/etc.

 

[emiliozapata]

I am trying to confirm sourcing on proteinfactory's Blue Regenerator product- I am also liking Green Pasture Products line of fermented cod and skate liver oils arctic sourced

 

[emiliozapata]

Where does Robuvit® come from?
The oak trees used to produce Robuvit® belong to the Quercus Robur species. They grow in the forest of the "Massif Central" region in France under strict sustainability rules. Robuvit® manufacturing process is based on the safest extraction medium : water. No solvent, no pesticide, no herbicide are used, and CO2 emission is maintained as low as possible. A pure, safe and environment-friendly production process.

 

[emiliozapata]

Calanus oil perhaps?
"What Is Caldrol 500?
The oil contained in these capsules is in the form of a wax ester. Whereas other dietary lipids claim their effects due to rapid absorption, Calanus® Oil explains it the other way around. The unique chemistry of these new lipids allows them to withstand the first line of digestive enzymes, letting the lipids reach the distal part of the digestive tract without compromising the bioavailability of the fatty acids. When the wax ester molecules ultimately are cleaved during digestion, the release of highly potent fatty acids activates GPR120 receptors present in the tissue and exert its effects. Whereas EPA and DHA are among the more potent of the common FAs on GPR120, SDA has recently been shown to be one of the most potent fatty acids activating this central receptor.

Calanus oil is harvested off the coast of Norway and is a Norweigan product. Most of the fish oil type supplements sold today are from China. "

 

[emiliozapata]

obviously German sourced Creatine Mono

Clean Chlorella by Natural News (love him or hate him the guy has a no china sourcing policy)

 

[Kronic]

Calanus oil perhaps?
"What Is Caldrol 500?
The oil contained in these capsules is in the form of a wax ester. Whereas other dietary lipids claim their effects due to rapid absorption, Calanus Oil explains it the other way around. The unique chemistry of these new lipids allows them to withstand the first line of digestive enzymes, letting the lipids reach the distal part of the digestive tract without compromising the bioavailability of the fatty acids. When the wax ester molecules ultimately are cleaved during digestion, the release of highly potent fatty acids activates GPR120 receptors present in the tissue and exert its effects. Whereas EPA and DHA are among the more potent of the common FAs on GPR120, SDA has recently been shown to be one of the most potent fatty acids activating this central receptor.

Calanus oil is harvested off the coast of Norway and is a Norweigan product. Most of the fish oil type supplements sold today are from China. "

I use nature made fish oil. supposedly wild caught in puru and USP verified in USA. also really good price

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Why the China fud?

I would be more concerned with what companies you buy from. Do they do third party testing? Who do they use for manufacturing? How is their history and reputation? Who is the owner?

China can be shady, but it's the companies importing the raws who need to do due diligence. That's who you're putting your trust in.

 

[Nodus1]

Why the China fud?

The OP already posted his reasons up thread.

Quality/tainting/etc.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

The OP already posted his reasons up thread.

If a final product has low quality or is tainted, that isn't China's fault.

Too be fair though, I would never use a supplement manufactured in China.

 

[Kronic]

If a final product has low quality or is tainted, that isn't China's fault.

Too be fair though, I would never use a supplement manufactured in China.

I think being extra skeptical of any supplement sourced from China is reasonable. I think we should be looking at other countries with poor living conditions too. it's ok to profile your supplements still. India maybe? I always found it mega sus that everyone blindly eats pink salt from India when we have it in Utah

 

[sns8778]

Why the China fud?

I would be more concerned with what companies you buy from. Do they do third party testing? Who do they use for manufacturing? How is their history and reputation? Who is the owner?

China can be shady, but it's the companies importing the raws who need to do due diligence. That's who you're putting your trust in.

I respect everyone's opinion to do what they want and what feels best for them (regarding the OP).

But I absolutely agree with you in what you're saying here and will expand on it a little for people reading, whether it’s now or in the future.

Raw Material Sourcing – Country of Origin:
Something is not necessarily bad just because it’s sourced from China, just like its not necessarily good because it’s sourced from the US or Uzbekistan, or wherever.

There are good and bad suppliers in every country in the world, because there are good and bad people in every country in the world.

China – A Dietary Supplement Overview:
It amazes me that so many people seem to have the opinion that the Chinese or inept or incompetent when it comes to dietary raw material production and quality control. This stigma or perception seems to continue to carry over with some people even though China is universally regarded as the world leader in production on various things – from TVs to cell phones to so many other things.

China produces the most dietary supplement raw materials of any country in the world.

As with any country, there are companies that follow guidelines and companies that do not. Look at the US for example – we have companies still selling ph’s and SARM’s, companies capsulating and bottling their own products with no FDA oversight or quality testing at all, companies selling products with no lot/batch numbers or expiration dates, etc.

China actually has a pretty extensive set of raw material quality guidelines and the penalties for violating those can be much harsher than in many other countries. Yes, there are companies that follow these guidelines just like there are US companies that follow GMP/FDA guidelines for dietary supplements. But yes, there are Chinese companies that do not just like there are US companies that don’t follow the guidelines (examples in my above paragraph).

So the questions for a supplement company sourcing raw materials from China or any other country in the world should be:

• Are you dealing with legitimate raw material suppliers that follow guidelines?
• Are you dealing with a broker that may sell raw materials from different suppliers or different types of suppliers? And if so, are they clearly indicating to their broker that they only want dietary raw materials that are made following the proper guidelines? Or are they indicating to the broker that they want the cheapest raw materials they can find them?
• Or are they dealing with someone off Alibaba or another marketplace like that where they really have no idea who they are dealing with?

It’s not the fault of a Chinese raw material that follows all quality control guidelines if a US supplement company contacts a broker and requests the cheapest material available or gets on Alibaba and buys something from who knows who. That’s the fault of the supplement company doing so.

Continued in next post......

 

[sns8778]

A sad comparison is how there is a negative perception by the FDA and many people in general toward the sports nutrition side of the dietary supplement industry in the US. It’s not the fault of the companies that do do things the right way because there are companies that don’t do things the right way.

I also want to point out a couple of other key points:

Chinese raw material suppliers are the largest purchasers of raw materials from basically all other countries in terms of dietary supplement ingredients. Many of the legitimate vendors buy quality raw materials from all over the world and offer them for resale. In many cases, it may be easier to find ingredient XYZ from Uzbekistan from a Chinese vendor than it is from an Uzbekistan vendor because they would rather sell a huge bulk supply to a Chinese vendor for resale than sell smaller quantities to dozens or hundreds of US companies and have to deal with customs a hundred times a month versus once a month.

Also, and this is a big one – some supplement companies claim that their raw materials are made in the USA when they aren’t. A lot of times the ingredients originate in China or other countries but are just warehoused in the US. This is a big enough issue that the FDA has addressed it in recent years and made many companies change their ‘made in the USA’ logos to ‘manufactured in the USA’ or ‘Made in the USA from domestic and international components’.

What’s Really Important – Quality:
The most important aspects of dietary supplements should be simple – quality and safety.

And this is where a lot of supplement companies on the US side fail miserably.

This isn’t the fault of China or any other country; it’s the fault of companies that sell dietary supplements aren’t following GMP guidelines.

Every company selling dietary supplements is supposed to be FDA registered and follow all GMP guidelines.

Every company selling dietary supplements is supposed to use contract manufacturers that are FDA registered and follow all GMP guidelines. This includes, but isn’t limited to – qualifying raw material suppliers, testing incoming ingredients – for quality, heavy metals, and microbial contamination.

If a supplement company is using a FDA registered GMP compliant contract manufacturer that qualifies its raw material suppliers, tests for incoming raw material quality, heavy metals, and microbial contamination – then the country of origin is irrelevant because the ingredient meets both quality and safety guidelines.

(Unless there is just prejudice against a certain country; and in which case, that’s a whole separate problem and issue)

Continued in next post .....

 

[sns8778]

Ever see companies say something like – on a Thursday for example – ‘Raw materials just came in, we should have finished product available on Monday’. And most customers get excited thinking – cool, I can order on Monday. But what they don’t realize is that the company right there basically told them that they aren’t getting the product manufactured in a GMP compliant facility and they are not doing microbial testing (salmonella, e coli, etc.) because those test results alone take longer than that to complete.

Also, every dietary supplement product released by any GMP compliant contract manufacturer in the US is required by law to have a Lot/Batch # and either an expiration date or a manufactured date. This isn’t a suggestion, it’s a law. GMP compliant contract manufacturers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars per year in quality control, equipment, compliance, etc. Legitimate ones are not going to risk being shut down by the FDA to break the law by not putting Batch/Lot #’s and expiration dates on products. The purpose of these #’s is for consumer safety that in the event of a recall, they can quickly trace where the products went and alert consumers.

Random But Interesting Note:
NOW Foods, one of the biggest supplement companies on the US market with one of the most extensive quality control programs in the industry (and who also happens to source a lot of raw materials from China) has recently started speaking out about quality issues in the industry more and started testing other companies products in certain categories. A lot of companies are freaked out by this while those of us that do things the right way applaud NOW for doing so and hope they quickly extend their doing this into other supplement categories.

They have so far hammered some companies for not using the correct amounts of or identifying the amount of Phosphatidylserine on the labels of products and recently did the same with Curcumin. They showed how many companies aren’t using the % extracts that they claim to be and that some are even spiking Curcumin products with synthetic curcuminoids.


In closing, my point is basically that there is a lot more to dietary supplement safety and quality than the country or origin and that if the US Dietary Supplement company selling the products is following the proper GMP guidelines, the country of origin is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Kronic]

for me, I'm skeptical of China and other countries with poor living conditions because you are trusting a worker who is likely not treated well to handle your supplements. if you can barely survive, are you going to take pride and care in making my supplements? maybe sometimes. maybe it's worth it?

I think this is india, but here's an example
Invalid Link Removed

 

[sns8778]

for me, I'm skeptical of China and other countries with poor living conditions because you are trusting a worker who is likely not treated well to handle your supplements. if you can barely survive, are you going to take pride and care in making my supplements? maybe sometimes. maybe it's worth it?

You're definitely entitled to your own opinion.

And the way you are thinking about it may be correct for some industries, but as someone that has done this for a living for almost 20 years and handles raw material sourcing for a lot of different companies, I can assure you that you are incorrect in your assumptions in this industry when we are talking about legitimate raw material supply companies.

And again, my posts only pertain to the reputable legitimate raw material suppliers.
There are definitely shady suppliers in every market in the world bc there are shady people in every market in the world; but I don't think the ones that do the right things should be defined by the ones that don't.

I think its very important not to stereotype all workers from a country based off of the conditions of some.

That would be like saying that no US industries pay well just because X percentage of Americans are below the poverty line.

It seems like you have the outlook on this that there are not many regulatory and quality control aspects in place at these facilities and the mental image of a sweat shop type environment with people slaving away over raw materials when that's just not the way it is with the legitimate companies. And I can understand why with the way the media portrays things sometimes, but that's just not the way it is with the legitimate suppliers.

There are some very strict quality control laws that legitimate Chinese raw material suppliers and companies have to meet. And the penalties for lack of compliance can be extremely severe, including criminal penalties against managers, supervisors, boards of directors, and Presidents/CEO's.

The legitimate raw material supply companies are multimillion dollar companies and most have very high end manufacturing and warehousing capabilities and labs that would make most even high end colleges jealous.

The average Chinese individual working in this industry for a legitimate company is typically very well paid.

 

[sns8778]

for me, I'm skeptical of China and other countries with poor living conditions because you are trusting a worker who is likely not treated well to handle your supplements. if you can barely survive, are you going to take pride and care in making my supplements? maybe sometimes. maybe it's worth it?

I think this is india, but here's an example
Invalid Link Removed

Also, the person making your supplements isn't in China. There may be some Chinese companies supplying raw materials for them but the companies making your supplements are typically in the US and should be sourcing raw materials from the best suppliers in the world in order to provide you with top quality products.

As part of this, they should be FDA registered and GMP compliant and should only work with FDA registered GMP compliant contract manufacturing facilities that follow all GMP guidelines on raw material testing and quality control.


As for your video example, there are countless video examples of employees at US restaurants doing things to food items as there are videos of customers licking ice cream and things like that. Things like that happen everywhere in the world because there are people like that everywhere in the world. Ignorance knows no race or nationality; ignorance and stupidity are equal opportunity

 

[thebigt]

Also, the person making your supplements isn't in China. There may be some Chinese companies supplying raw materials for them but the companies making your supplements are typically in the US and should be sourcing raw materials from the best suppliers in the world in order to provide you with top quality products.

As part of this, they should be FDA registered and GMP compliant and should only work wit FDA registered GMP compliant contract manufacturing facilities that follow all GMP guidelines on raw material testing and quality control.


As for your video example, there are countless video examples of employees at US restaurants doing things to food items as there are videos of customers licking ice cream and things like that. Things like that happen everywhere in the world because there are people like that everywhere in the world. Ignorance knows no race or nationality; ignorance and stupidity are equal opportunity

all you need to look at is migrant agriculture workers here in US. many times they are not given proper facilities for hygiene--it doesn't surprise me when things like lettuce carry disease. same with meat processing plants--i am very happy to live in a rural environment and to have a large garden and hunt and fish.

 

[Kronic]

Also, the person making your supplements isn't in China. There may be some Chinese companies supplying raw materials for them but the companies making your supplements are typically in the US and should be sourcing raw materials from the best suppliers in the world in order to provide you with top quality products.

As part of this, they should be FDA registered and GMP compliant and should only work wit FDA registered GMP compliant contract manufacturing facilities that follow all GMP guidelines on raw material testing and quality control.


As for your video example, there are countless video examples of employees at US restaurants doing things to food items as there are videos of customers licking ice cream and things like that. Things like that happen everywhere in the world because there are people like that everywhere in the world. Ignorance knows no race or nationality; ignorance and stupidity are equal opportunity

I don't think it's equal. it should be a sliding scale based on your work and living conditions. pay workers more and it will happen less

 

[sns8778]

I don't think it's equal. it should be a sliding scale based on your work and living conditions. pay workers more and it will happen less

I'm sorry but it seems like your argument is more of a nationality or political argument and I don't do nationality or politics.

I'm all for everyone everywhere getting paid as much as possible and having the best lives possible.

My posts in this thread were 100% to provide information for the people that say that they like my posts and find them enlightening and insightful into the information that I share sometimes about the supplement industry.

My only point in relation to the video you posted was that you made negative comments about Chinese but posted a video from India to back your argument, and I pointed out that a quick trip to YouTube or TikTok shows the same thing happening every day here in the US. Hell, we're less than 2 years removed from where many grocery stores had to lock their ice cream freezers because of people going in an licking the ice cream because of some social media challenge - and that was not some poor disgruntled Chinese people doing that, it was for the most part average or above average income Americans doing it for social media views.

 

[Kronic]

On the reverse side though, I live a couple hours from a plant where some of the


I'm sorry but it seems like your argument is more of a nationality or political argument and I don't do nationality or politics.

I'm all for everyone everywhere getting paid as much as possible and having the best lives possible.

My posts in this thread were 100% to provide information for the people that say that they like my posts and find them enlightening and insightful into the information that I share sometimes about the supplement industry.

My only point in relation to the video you posted was that you made negative comments about Chinese but posted a video from India to back your argument, and I pointed out that a quick trip to YouTube or TikTok shows the same thing happening every day here in the US. Hell, we're less than 2 years removed from where many grocery stores had to lock their ice cream freezers because of people going in an licking the ice cream because of some social media challenge - and that was not some poor disgruntled Chinese people doing that, it was for the most part average or above average income Americans doing it for social media views.

I'm just talking about nations with bad working conditions. India is one of them. yes it happens here too, that's why I don't go to Burger King anymore.

 

[emiliozapata]

Basically I have come to the point where despite any so called assurances that something is actually legit from china i believe that the systemic corruption there touches everything and i now refuse to support it in any way, i will continue on my quest to put together supp regimens with zero china sourced products, it will likely limit my options for cutting edge stuff but i think back to basics is a better and likely fiscally effective option

 

[Kronic]

Basically I have come to the point where despite any so called assurances that something is wrong legit from china i believe that the systemic corruption there touches everything and i now refuse to support it in any way, i will continue on my quest to put together supp regimens with zero china sourced products, it will likely limit my options for cutting edge stuff but i think back to basics is a better and likely fiscally effective option

could just call it avoiding doing business with countries that support genocide.

- china
- north korea

 

[delsolrob]

could just call it avoiding doing business with countries that support genocide.

- china
- north korea

this post written on what device?

 

[Carnivorecon]

this post written on what device?

On a samsung phone made in SOUTH KOREA maybe but if not does that make it ok what they're doing then?

 

[sns8778]

On a samsung phone made in SOUTH KOREA maybe but if not does that make it ok what they're doing then?

This thread started out as a thread downing Chinese supplement raw material quality.

After that was explained and dispelled, it then became a couple people commenting about not wanting to support anything Chinese because of political views and issues.

^^^ That's perfectly fine, but a completely different subject.

@delsolrob 's post you quoted and are replying to was made directly to or two people making a post about not supporting certain countries - Rob was simply pointing out the irony in avoiding supplement raw materials from those countries when using electronic devices from them or that use components from them. He was just pointing out the irony, especially being the person that made the post he replied to has another thread going about a supplement he's taking that the raw materials for that particular product are almost exclusively made in China.

In direct reply to the Samsung part:

Samsung phones consist of roughly 37% -58% Chinese components components so even if they are put together in South Korea or other countries, they still have the Chinese components in them. Yes, Samsung phones are known as some of the best quality phones on the market.

^^ That is similar to what I mentioned earlier in this thread where supplement companies used to say things were 'made in the USA' even when using international raw materials/components and the FDA finally made them change it to say 'Manufactured in the USA with domestic and international components'.

It's also similar to what I said earlier about raw material quality comes from proper procedures and quality control and can be done right or wrong in any country. Some of the best quality supplement raw materials in the world do come from China - just like some of the best smart phone components in the world come from China. That doesn't mean that all are or aren't - that's where its the manufacturers responsibility to do proper testing, and that's whether discussing smart phones or supplements.

Rob is one of the nicest and most helpful people on the forums. But he, like I, know a lot of great intelligent people that live in China. And its not fair for it to be implied that they are inept or incompetent based on political views and leanings. Politics are the government, people are the population. And test results are test results - no matter what country they are from.

I haven't seen anyone say that its okay what any government is doing to their people - but that's a political issue. And that was kind of the point - if you don't want to use anything with country XYZ's components because of political views, cool, do what you'd like. But don't make false statements and attack their raw material quality because of it. Using your Samsung example, if you don't want to use a Samsung phone bc it has X percent Chinese parts, cool, that's your right. But just say that that's why instead of attacking Samsung components bc they're made in China, because even though they're made in China, they're also regarded as being some of the best in the world.

I hope that all makes sense.

All in all, for people that want to talk and argue political issues, there are about a million places that that can be done. But there aren't many good supplement forums left so I hope that political stuff can stay off AM for the most part bc it tends to get really toxic, really quickly.

 

[thebigt]

This thread started out as a thread downing Chinese supplement raw material quality.

After that was explained and dispelled, it then became a couple people commenting about not wanting to support anything Chinese because of political views and issues.

^^^ That's perfectly fine, but a completely different subject.

@delsolrob 's post you quoted and are replying to was made directly to or two people making a post about not supporting certain countries - Rob was simply pointing out the irony in avoiding supplement raw materials from those countries when using electronic devices from them or that use components from them. He was just pointing out the irony, especially being the person that made the post he replied to has another thread going about a supplement he's taking that the raw materials for that particular product are almost exclusively made in China.

In direct reply to the Samsung part:

Samsung phones consist of roughly 37% -58% Chinese components components so even if they are put together in South Korea or other countries, they still have the Chinese components in them. Yes, Samsung phones are known as some of the best quality phones on the market.

^^ That is similar to what I mentioned earlier in this thread where supplement companies used to say things were 'made in the USA' even when using international raw materials/components and the FDA finally made them change it to say 'Manufactured in the USA with domestic and international components'.

It's also similar to what I said earlier about raw material quality comes from proper procedures and quality control and can be done right or wrong in any country. Some of the best quality supplement raw materials in the world do come from China - just like some of the best smart phone components in the world come from China. That doesn't mean that all are or aren't - that's where its the manufacturers responsibility to do proper testing, and that's whether discussing smart phones or supplements.

Rob is one of the nicest and most helpful people on the forums. But he, like I, know a lot of great intelligent people that live in China. And its not fair for it to be implied that they are inept or incompetent based on political views and leanings. Politics are the government, people are the population. And test results are test results - no matter what country they are from.

I haven't seen anyone say that its okay what any government is doing to their people - but that's a political issue. And that was kind of the point - if you don't want to use anything with country XYZ's components because of political views, cool, do what you'd like. But don't make false statements and attack their raw material quality because of it. Using your Samsung example, if you don't want to use a Samsung phone bc it has X percent Chinese parts, cool, that's your right. But just say that that's why instead of attacking Samsung components bc they're made in China, because even though they're made in China, they're also regarded as being some of the best in the world.

I hope that all makes sense.

All in all, for people that want to talk and argue political issues, there are about a million places that that can be done. But there aren't many good supplement forums left so I hope that political stuff can stay off AM for the most part bc it tends to get really toxic, really quickly.

I think if people spent some time researching they would find it incredible the amount of 'American' things the chinese have investments in.
banks, media, smithfield meats, social media--even disney...hell, even America's foreign exchange reserves are held by china's central bank....not to mention the NBA

 

[Kronic]

This thread started out as a thread downing Chinese supplement raw material quality.

After that was explained and dispelled, it then became a couple people commenting about not wanting to support anything Chinese because of political views and issues.

^^^ That's perfectly fine, but a completely different subject.

@delsolrob 's post you quoted and are replying to was made directly to or two people making a post about not supporting certain countries - Rob was simply pointing out the irony in avoiding supplement raw materials from those countries when using electronic devices from them or that use components from them. He was just pointing out the irony, especially being the person that made the post he replied to has another thread going about a supplement he's taking that the raw materials for that particular product are almost exclusively made in China.

In direct reply to the Samsung part:

Samsung phones consist of roughly 37% -58% Chinese components components so even if they are put together in South Korea or other countries, they still have the Chinese components in them. Yes, Samsung phones are known as some of the best quality phones on the market.

^^ That is similar to what I mentioned earlier in this thread where supplement companies used to say things were 'made in the USA' even when using international raw materials/components and the FDA finally made them change it to say 'Manufactured in the USA with domestic and international components'.

It's also similar to what I said earlier about raw material quality comes from proper procedures and quality control and can be done right or wrong in any country. Some of the best quality supplement raw materials in the world do come from China - just like some of the best smart phone components in the world come from China. That doesn't mean that all are or aren't - that's where its the manufacturers responsibility to do proper testing, and that's whether discussing smart phones or supplements.

Rob is one of the nicest and most helpful people on the forums. But he, like I, know a lot of great intelligent people that live in China. And its not fair for it to be implied that they are inept or incompetent based on political views and leanings. Politics are the government, people are the population. And test results are test results - no matter what country they are from.

I haven't seen anyone say that its okay what any government is doing to their people - but that's a political issue. And that was kind of the point - if you don't want to use anything with country XYZ's components because of political views, cool, do what you'd like. But don't make false statements and attack their raw material quality because of it. Using your Samsung example, if you don't want to use a Samsung phone bc it has X percent Chinese parts, cool, that's your right. But just say that that's why instead of attacking Samsung components bc they're made in China, because even though they're made in China, they're also regarded as being some of the best in the world.

I hope that all makes sense.

All in all, for people that want to talk and argue political issues, there are about a million places that that can be done. But there aren't many good supplement forums left so I hope that political stuff can stay off AM for the most part bc it tends to get really toxic, really quickly.

with all the pollution and unsanitary conditions in china, it's a miracle if the supps are as clean as you say they are. anything grown there should be contaminated unless it's grown in a lab with controlled air/water.

 

[emiliozapata]

I assume he is referring to the fact that I bought some myosynergy and brite- indeed, it was after pondering the situation that i decided that going forward I would no longer be obtaining anything sourced from china- pure and simple- the thread then became about my reasons for doing so and derailed the info I was after which was suggestions for ergogenic aids that are non- chinese sourced- at this point i myself have found enough to be satisfied-

 

[emiliozapata]

and i disregard any assurances about legitimacy when they are coming from someone with a vested interest in continuing to sell chinese sourced products

 

[sns8778]

with all the pollution and unsanitary conditions in china, it's a miracle if the supps are as clean as you say they are. anything grown there should be contaminated unless it's grown in a lab with controlled air/water.

You continue to make assumptions about an entire country based off what you see on the news.

China covers a huge geographical region.
They have major cities, small towns, and rural communities just like the US.

Making the assumption that the entire country is one way (pollution, unsanitary) would be like making the assumption that every city in the US had the murder rate of Chicago, the homeless population of certain ones in CA, the water pollution issues faced by some, etc. Every country has their issues, including the US; but that doesn't mean that it is reflective of the entire country.

I don't really care where you like China or whether you don't - you're entitled to whatever political views you wish.

I'm simply commenting on it from a quality control standpoint - and quality control doesn't come from political views, your or my opinions, it comes from facts - and those facts come from science - identity testing, microbial testing, heavy metals testing, etc.

-------------------
Here's a great example of how a world view of my own got changed from seeing first hand about another country being entirely different than I thought it was based on how it was portrayed on the US news.

That example would be Uganda.

Uganda is often shown on the news looking like some third world country and people talk about the pollution there. And the news makes it out like everyone there is miserable and starving. I've been there. And I admit that based on the perceptions that I had, I originally didn't want to go but I'm so glad that I did. In Uganda, I met some of the nicest, most motivated, and happiest people I've ever met in my life. The major cities are not much different than our major cities; and regarding the pollution, I can breathe there better than I can in the US for the most part (lack of allergens + nowhere near the pollution that they say). Every time you see it on the news, you see these dirt roads and villages and they act like there are no paved roads and people walking or riding motorbikes everywhere. But they have major roads connecting the cities all around the country and they don't have speed bumps - they have random speed humps to control speeding - and if you're going too fast and hit one of those bad boys its game over for your vehicle haha.

------

In regards to your comment about IF they are as clean as I say:

You included the word 'IF' there like you're trying to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I am probably the most outspoken person on AM about quality control - both in terms of the raw material supply chain and finished products.

I've done raw material sourcing in this industry since 2004 and handle raw material sourcing for over a dozen companies which includes vetting and qualifying raw material suppliers and handling raw material testing and GMP compliance for various companies in the industry in addition to my own.

I deal with raw material suppliers in dozens of countries and testing facilities all over the world.

Every year, I see test results on raw materials from dozens of countries and hundreds of total samples.

One of the reasons that you see me myself speak out a lot about quality control or lack thereof in this industry is that we spend ten's of thousands of dollars per year in quality testing and ten's of more thousands of dollars per year to be GMP compliant yet there are companies out there that still tell people to buy their magical ingredients that don't even bother to do basic heavy metals or microbial testing.

Quality control is what it is - science - identity testing, microbial testing, heavy metals testing, etc.

It's not about politics; it's not about your opinions or my opinions; its just straight facts.


I'm nice enough to spend a lot of time here on AM trying to help people and I try to share a lot of industry insights with people because I have a lot of people tell me that they like and enjoy that - both posters and people that contact me that read but don't post. Because I enjoy helping people and educating people that are interested on things like this.

 

[sns8778]

I assume he is referring to the fact that I bought some myosynergy and brite- indeed, it was after pondering the situation that i decided that going forward I would no longer be obtaining anything sourced from china- pure and simple- the thread then became about my reasons for doing so and derailed the info I was after which was suggestions for ergogenic aids that are non- chinese sourced- at this point i myself have found enough to be satisfied-

and i disregard any assurances about legitimacy when they are coming from someone with a vested interest in continuing to sell chinese sourced products

Actually, I was talking to @Kronic bc I somewhat know him from other threads and feel that he and I can discuss the issue without it affecting our personal relationship towards one another which I feel has always been fairly good. I don't know you, so I wasn't talking about you or to you and honestly had no idea you had bought Myosynergy and Brite.

The only comments I've made at all that had anything to do with you would be that you fall into the statement I made where I said that I respect everyone's right to do what they think is best for them.

As far as your second quote there - my interest is providing the absolute best quality products to our customers, and that has nothing to do with country of origin - it has 100% to do with quality testing.

I don't even mind helping you out on your quest at what you're trying to accomplish:

• If you are really going for 100% Chinese free supplements, you have to think beyond just the active ingredients.
• Many of the flow agents/other ingredients may be sourced from US suppliers but have Chinese origins, so depending on how strictly you're trying to do this, you may want to check with companies you buy from to check on that aspect too.
• Many of the capsule shells on the US market originate in China. Even if they are coming from US Suppliers, they may have been made in China. So you may want to check on that as well.

And with those, I'm sincerely just trying to help you out bc a lot of people don't know or realize that about those components.

 

[Kronic]

You continue to make assumptions about an entire country based off what you see on the news.

China covers a huge geographical region.
They have major cities, small towns, and rural communities just like the US.

Making the assumption that the entire country is one way (pollution, unsanitary) would be like making the assumption that every city in the US had the murder rate of Chicago, the homeless population of certain ones in CA, the water pollution issues faced by some, etc. Every country has their issues, including the US; but that doesn't mean that it is reflective of the entire country.

I don't really care where you like China or whether you don't - you're entitled to whatever political views you wish.

I'm simply commenting on it from a quality control standpoint - and quality control doesn't come from political views, your or my opinions, it comes from facts - and those facts come from science - identity testing, microbial testing, heavy metals testing, etc.

-------------------
Here's a great example of how a world view of my own got changed from seeing first hand about another country being entirely different than I thought it was based on how it was portrayed on the US news.

That example would be Uganda.

Uganda is often shown on the news looking like some third world country and people talk about the pollution there. And the news makes it out like everyone there is miserable and starving. I've been there. And I admit that based on the perceptions that I had, I originally didn't want to go but I'm so glad that I did. In Uganda, I met some of the nicest, most motivated, and happiest people I've ever met in my life. The major cities are not much different than our major cities; and regarding the pollution, I can breathe there better than I can in the US for the most part (lack of allergens + nowhere near the pollution that they say). Every time you see it on the news, you see these dirt roads and villages and they act like there are no paved roads and people walking or riding motorbikes everywhere. But they have major roads connecting the cities all around the country and they don't have speed bumps - they have random speed humps to control speeding - and if you're going too fast and hit one of those bad boys its game over for your vehicle haha.

------

In regards to your comment about IF they are as clean as I say:

You included the word 'IF' there like you're trying to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I am probably the most outspoken person on AM about quality control - both in terms of the raw material supply chain and finished products.

I've done raw material sourcing in this industry since 2004 and handle raw material sourcing for over a dozen companies which includes vetting and qualifying raw material suppliers and handling raw material testing and GMP compliance for various companies in the industry in addition to my own.

I deal with raw material suppliers in dozens of countries and testing facilities all over the world.

Every year, I see test results on raw materials from dozens of countries and hundreds of total samples.

One of the reasons that you see me myself speak out a lot about quality control or lack thereof in this industry is that we spend ten's of thousands of dollars per year in quality testing and ten's of more thousands of dollars per year to be GMP compliant yet there are companies out there that still tell people to buy their magical ingredients that don't even bother to do basic heavy metals or microbial testing.

Quality control is what it is - science - identity testing, microbial testing, heavy metals testing, etc.

It's not about politics; it's not about your opinions or my opinions; its just straight facts.


I'm nice enough to spend a lot of time here on AM trying to help people and I try to share a lot of industry insights with people because I have a lot of people tell me that they like and enjoy that - both posters and people that contact me that read but don't post. Because I enjoy helping people and educating people that are interested on things like this.

let's use an example that I avoid. "Dr's best" brand. really popular, good price, tons of products. the company supposedly was sold to a Chinese company. seems like the product quality couldn't be that great for the price so I avoid it

 

[Carnivorecon]

This thread started out as a thread downing Chinese supplement raw material quality.

After that was explained and dispelled, it then became a couple people commenting about not wanting to support anything Chinese because of political views and issues.

^^^ That's perfectly fine, but a completely different subject.

@delsolrob 's post you quoted and are replying to was made directly to or two people making a post about not supporting certain countries - Rob was simply pointing out the irony in avoiding supplement raw materials from those countries when using electronic devices from them or that use components from them. He was just pointing out the irony, especially being the person that made the post he replied to has another thread going about a supplement he's taking that the raw materials for that particular product are almost exclusively made in China.

In direct reply to the Samsung part:

Samsung phones consist of roughly 37% -58% Chinese components components so even if they are put together in South Korea or other countries, they still have the Chinese components in them. Yes, Samsung phones are known as some of the best quality phones on the market.

^^ That is similar to what I mentioned earlier in this thread where supplement companies used to say things were 'made in the USA' even when using international raw materials/components and the FDA finally made them change it to say 'Manufactured in the USA with domestic and international components'.

It's also similar to what I said earlier about raw material quality comes from proper procedures and quality control and can be done right or wrong in any country. Some of the best quality supplement raw materials in the world do come from China - just like some of the best smart phone components in the world come from China. That doesn't mean that all are or aren't - that's where its the manufacturers responsibility to do proper testing, and that's whether discussing smart phones or supplements.

Rob is one of the nicest and most helpful people on the forums. But he, like I, know a lot of great intelligent people that live in China. And its not fair for it to be implied that they are inept or incompetent based on political views and leanings. Politics are the government, people are the population. And test results are test results - no matter what country they are from.

I haven't seen anyone say that its okay what any government is doing to their people - but that's a political issue. And that was kind of the point - if you don't want to use anything with country XYZ's components because of political views, cool, do what you'd like. But don't make false statements and attack their raw material quality because of it. Using your Samsung example, if you don't want to use a Samsung phone bc it has X percent Chinese parts, cool, that's your right. But just say that that's why instead of attacking Samsung components bc they're made in China, because even though they're made in China, they're also regarded as being some of the best in the world.

I hope that all makes sense.

All in all, for people that want to talk and argue political issues, there are about a million places that that can be done. But there aren't many good supplement forums left so I hope that political stuff can stay off AM for the most part bc it tends to get really toxic, really quickly.

Thanks for that lengthy reply, if i ever need a ghost writer i certainly know who to call. I am aware of the previous comments in the thread and of irony also, believe it or not. The reason i felt compelled to reply to robs comment is i felt his dismissal of their objection to CCP's conduct based on them owning chinese made goods is ridiculous, everyone has something chinese made and it shouldn't matter if someone has a warehouse full of chinese goods, they can still object to chinese human rights abuses and bullying of other nations, especially if one now endeavours not to support that regime any further

 

[Carnivorecon]

This thread started out as a thread downing Chinese supplement raw material quality.

After that was explained and dispelled, it then became a couple people commenting about not wanting to support anything Chinese because of political views and issues.

^^^ That's perfectly fine, but a completely different subject.

@delsolrob 's post you quoted and are replying to was made directly to or two people making a post about not supporting certain countries - Rob was simply pointing out the irony in avoiding supplement raw materials from those countries when using electronic devices from them or that use components from them. He was just pointing out the irony, especially being the person that made the post he replied to has another thread going about a supplement he's taking that the raw materials for that particular product are almost exclusively made in China.

In direct reply to the Samsung part:

Samsung phones consist of roughly 37% -58% Chinese components components so even if they are put together in South Korea or other countries, they still have the Chinese components in them. Yes, Samsung phones are known as some of the best quality phones on the market.

^^ That is similar to what I mentioned earlier in this thread where supplement companies used to say things were 'made in the USA' even when using international raw materials/components and the FDA finally made them change it to say 'Manufactured in the USA with domestic and international components'.

It's also similar to what I said earlier about raw material quality comes from proper procedures and quality control and can be done right or wrong in any country. Some of the best quality supplement raw materials in the world do come from China - just like some of the best smart phone components in the world come from China. That doesn't mean that all are or aren't - that's where its the manufacturers responsibility to do proper testing, and that's whether discussing smart phones or supplements.

Rob is one of the nicest and most helpful people on the forums. But he, like I, know a lot of great intelligent people that live in China. And its not fair for it to be implied that they are inept or incompetent based on political views and leanings. Politics are the government, people are the population. And test results are test results - no matter what country they are from.

I haven't seen anyone say that its okay what any government is doing to their people - but that's a political issue. And that was kind of the point - if you don't want to use anything with country XYZ's components because of political views, cool, do what you'd like. But don't make false statements and attack their raw material quality because of it. Using your Samsung example, if you don't want to use a Samsung phone bc it has X percent Chinese parts, cool, that's your right. But just say that that's why instead of attacking Samsung components bc they're made in China, because even though they're made in China, they're also regarded as being some of the best in the world.

I hope that all makes sense.

All in all, for people that want to talk and argue political issues, there are about a million places that that can be done. But there aren't many good supplement forums left so I hope that political stuff can stay off AM for the most part bc it tends to get really toxic, really quickly.

I do agree on keeping politics out of most threads, thats why i now stay out the trump thread since it became peak cancer a while back. And i don't believe everything out of any particular country is guaranteed to be crap or every worker there is feckless. I do not agree with the CCPs actions

 

[sns8778]

let's use an example that I avoid. "Dr's best" brand. really popular, good price, tons of products. the company supposedly was sold to a Chinese company. seems like the product quality couldn't be that great for the price so I avoid it

Making a decision to buy from and support US owned business is a completely different thought process than assuming that all raw materials are bad quality that come from China, when that part isn't true.

Dr. Best was owned by a US investment group and sold to a large Chinese company several years ago.

So in that case, I completely get it - personal choice and personal decision. If you prefer to buy from American owned and operated companies, I commend you.

 

[sns8778]

Thanks for that lengthy reply, if i ever need a ghost writer i certainly know who to call. I am aware of the previous comments in the thread and of irony also, believe it or not. The reason i felt compelled to reply to robs comment is i felt his dismissal of their objection to CCP's conduct based on them owning chinese made goods is ridiculous, everyone has something chinese made and it shouldn't matter if someone has a warehouse full of chinese goods, they can still object to chinese human rights abuses and bullying of other nations, especially if one now endeavours not to support that regime any further

I do agree on keeping politics out of most threads, thats why i now stay out the trump thread since it became peak cancer a while back. And i don't believe everything out of any particular country is guaranteed to be crap or every worker there is feckless. I do not agree with the CCPs actions

When I type replies, I tend to be thorough so that people that may read or skim a thread in the future can be clear on what I'm replying to and not get confused (sometimes people miss things, edit posts, etc.). And also, when I reply, I tend to reply in a general sense for everyone reading, not directly to one person.

For those of us that know Rob, we know that he wasn't being dismissive towards anyone or anything; he was just pointing out some of the irony in this thread. He isn't a political guy - his post was about the irony not just in this thread, but in the world of how some people say don't buy product xyz from that country but then buy product type yzx from the same country.

I agree with what you said - and I think that's what he was jokingly alluding to - that just because someone makes a decision to buy an item from a certain country doesn't mean they are being supportive of the way that country treats people. It's a simple buying decision, not a political statement.

 

[emiliozapata]

Actually, I was talking to @Kronic bc I somewhat know him from other threads and feel that he and I can discuss the issue without it affecting our personal relationship towards one another which I feel has always been fairly good. I don't know you, so I wasn't talking about you or to you and honestly had no idea you had bought Myosynergy and Brite.

The only comments I've made at all that had anything to do with you would be that you fall into the statement I made where I said that I respect everyone's right to do what they think is best for them.

As far as your second quote there - my interest is providing the absolute best quality products to our customers, and that has nothing to do with country of origin - it has 100% to do with quality testing.

I don't even mind helping you out on your quest at what you're trying to accomplish:

• If you are really going for 100% Chinese free supplements, you have to think beyond just the active ingredients.
• Many of the flow agents/other ingredients may be sourced from US suppliers but have Chinese origins, so depending on how strictly you're trying to do this, you may want to check with companies you buy from to check on that aspect too.
• Many of the capsule shells on the US market originate in China. Even if they are coming from US Suppliers, they may have been made in China. So you may want to check on that as well.

And with those, I'm sincerely just trying to help you out bc a lot of people don't know or realize that about those components.

Indeed, which is why I am looking at a back to basics approach- I am looking at primarily bulk ingredients- minimal fillers- making my own (currently making chaga tea, elderberry, bitter melon extract, maitake extract etc.) MACA in bulk form, going real old school with wheat germ and brewers yeast etc.

 

[emiliozapata]

Invalid Link Removed

 

[aaronuconn]

Quality/tainting/etc.

If this is your concern, why not just use NSF Certified for Sport supplements? You may not find the same “robustness” in formulas, but you can probably get single ingredient products with the assurance they meet the below standards. You’ll pay more for these type of products obviously. The major market for these type of products tends to be pro athletes as they really can’t risk taking a tainted supplement, but no reason the everyday consumer can’t utilize.

From their website:
“There are numerous quality components of the Certified for Sport certification program, which verifies that:

Products do not contain any of 280 substances banned by major athletic organizations.

The contents of the supplement actually match what is printed on the label.

There are no unsafe levels of contaminants in the tested products.

The product is manufactured at a facility that is GMP registered and audited twice annually for quality and safety by NSF International.”

There is a level below, which I believe is NSF Contents Certified. That may also be suffice my for what you’re looking for.

 

[thebigt]

If this is your concern, why not just use NSF Certified for Sport supplements? You may not find the same “robustness” in formulas, but you can probably get single ingredient products with the assurance they meet the below standards. You’ll pay more for these type of products obviously. The major market for these type of products tends to be pro athletes as they really can’t risk taking a tainted supplement, but no reason the everyday consumer can’t utilize.

From their website:
“There are numerous quality components of the Certified for Sport certification program, which verifies that:

Products do not contain any of 280 substances banned by major athletic organizations.

The contents of the supplement actually match what is printed on the label.

There are no unsafe levels of contaminants in the tested products.

The product is manufactured at a facility that is GMP registered and audited twice annually for quality and safety by NSF International.”

There is a level below, which I believe is NSF Contents Certified. That may also be suffice my for what you’re looking for.

i would have thought the number of banned substances to be much higher than 280?

 

[aaronuconn]

i would have thought the number of banned substances to be much higher than 280?

The below has a bit more info but doesn’t directly answer your question. I’m certainly no chemist or expert in steroid production, but to your point, maybe that list of 280 will grow over time as new derivatives come on the market.

Steve might know more about NSF Certified for Sport and such. Always interested to get his take.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[sns8778]

If this is your concern, why not just use NSF Certified for Sport supplements? You may not find the same “robustness” in formulas, but you can probably get single ingredient products with the assurance they meet the below standards. You’ll pay more for these type of products obviously. The major market for these type of products tends to be pro athletes as they really can’t risk taking a tainted supplement, but no reason the everyday consumer can’t utilize.

From their website:
“There are numerous quality components of the Certified for Sport certification program, which verifies that:

Products do not contain any of 280 substances banned by major athletic organizations.

The contents of the supplement actually match what is printed on the label.

There are no unsafe levels of contaminants in the tested products.

The product is manufactured at a facility that is GMP registered and audited twice annually for quality and safety by NSF International.”

There is a level below, which I believe is NSF Contents Certified. That may also be suffice my for what you’re looking for.

As the thread progressed, he explained more of his perspective in that he just doesn't want to buy anything from China.

So NSF doesn't really apply in his case because NSF is about banned substances, not excluding ingredients based on country of origin.

 

[sns8778]

i would have thought the number of banned substances to be much higher than 280?

If depends on the sporting organization and the testing body. WADA for example bans some things that most people wouldn't even think of.

 

[sns8778]

The below has a bit more info but doesn’t directly answer your question. I’m certainly no chemist or expert in steroid production, but to your point, maybe that list of 280 will grow over time as new derivatives come on the market.

Steve might know more about NSF Certified for Sport and such. Always interested to get his take.

Invalid Link Removed

NSF is certainly a fine program but I don't think that its needed by most companies or most contract manufacturers.

It is more based around making sure supplements are contaminant free of banned ingredients so that is great for athletes but the average person may be looking for things that are banned by some sporting organizations. Examples can include - high levels of caffeine, synephrine, 7-keto, and much more.

And if a contract manufacture is truly following GMP guidelines anyway, this shouldn't be an issue anyway.

The NSF program on contract manufacturers is a major expense and the inspections they go through for this really aren't much different than a normal FDA GMP inspection. Just in this case, they're paying big money to display the NSF symbol. And due to the major expenses involved, NSF manufacturers usually aren't interested in dealing with small to medium size companies.

So basically, I don't think its bad, I just don't think its necessary unless you're a professional athlete and then in that case, you still have to look at your individual sport guidelines bc WADA testing is so strict and encompassing, its hard for athletes to even keep up with.

 

[thebigt]

If depends on the sporting organization and the testing body. WADA for example bans some things that most people wouldn't even think of.

exactly...some of the things on athlete's banned list is just plain stupid...i don't even know how it would be possible to test for that many things?

 

[sns8778]

exactly...some of the things on athlete's banned list is just plain stupid...i don't even know how it would be possible to test for that many things?

They definitely can and do bc athletes fail for them all the time. I remember a UFC fighter getting a year suspension for 7-Keto.

 

[BCseacow83]

I think being extra skeptical of any supplement sourced from China is reasonable. I think we should be looking at other countries with poor living conditions too. it's ok to profile your supplements still. India maybe? I always found it mega sus that everyone blindly eats pink salt from India when we have it in Utah

REAL SALT FTMFW!

A sad comparison is how there is a negative perception by the FDA and many people in general toward the sports nutrition side of the dietary supplement industry in the US. It’s not the fault of the companies that do do things the right way because there are companies that don’t do things the right way.

I also want to point out a couple of other key points:

Chinese raw material suppliers are the largest purchasers of raw materials from basically all other countries in terms of dietary supplement ingredients. Many of the legitimate vendors buy quality raw materials from all over the world and offer them for resale. In many cases, it may be easier to find ingredient XYZ from Uzbekistan from a Chinese vendor than it is from an Uzbekistan vendor because they would rather sell a huge bulk supply to a Chinese vendor for resale than sell smaller quantities to dozens or hundreds of US companies and have to deal with customs a hundred times a month versus once a month.

Also, and this is a big one – some supplement companies claim that their raw materials are made in the USA when they aren’t. A lot of times the ingredients originate in China or other countries but are just warehoused in the US. This is a big enough issue that the FDA has addressed it in recent years and made many companies change their ‘made in the USA’ logos to ‘manufactured in the USA’ or ‘Made in the USA from domestic and international components’.

What’s Really Important – Quality:
The most important aspects of dietary supplements should be simple – quality and safety.

And this is where a lot of supplement companies on the US side fail miserably.

This isn’t the fault of China or any other country; it’s the fault of companies that sell dietary supplements aren’t following GMP guidelines.

Every company selling dietary supplements is supposed to be FDA registered and follow all GMP guidelines.

Every company selling dietary supplements is supposed to use contract manufacturers that are FDA registered and follow all GMP guidelines. This includes, but isn’t limited to – qualifying raw material suppliers, testing incoming ingredients – for quality, heavy metals, and microbial contamination.

If a supplement company is using a FDA registered GMP compliant contract manufacturer that qualifies its raw material suppliers, tests for incoming raw material quality, heavy metals, and microbial contamination – then the country of origin is irrelevant because the ingredient meets both quality and safety guidelines.

(Unless there is just prejudice against a certain country; and in which case, that’s a whole separate problem and issue)

Continued in next post .....

Hold on a second, you mean my "Made in the USA" Himalayan Goji Berries" were not grown in New Jersey??? WTF! lol One of these days I am going to lose faith in ebay sourced start up brands..............lol

 

[BCseacow83]

Basically I have come to the point where despite any so called assurances that something is actually legit from china i believe that the systemic corruption there touches everything and i now refuse to support it in any way, i will continue on my quest to put together supp regimens with zero china sourced products, it will likely limit my options for cutting edge stuff but i think back to basics is a better and likely fiscally effective option

If you had read what SNS stated there is a very good chance that raw material grown in other countries ends up being funneled through Chinese raw material suppliers. So being grown in Peru will not necessarily ensure that it never landed in China prior to your hands. Just something to think about and ask if it's that important.

I agree with corruption and human rights issues over there for sure but no level of corruption is going to change the fact that proper testing here and proper law-abiding companies are not going to be touched by that.