Best Epicatechin?

[MadStax]

There are so many options and new products out now. The dosage on all of them seems to be quite high though? The suggested usage is 1mg/kg, but the caps are 200mg even 300mg. Is there a benefit to the higher dose? I used Epichaos a few years back and liked it, but I didn't really notice a difference when trying more than 1ml, so seems to me half the pill is wasted? Or is the bioavailability much lower with oral administration?

 

[botk1161]

Apex or XPG topical. Oral does not enter the conversation.

 

[sns8778]

There are so many options and new products out now. The dosage on all of them seems to be quite high though? The suggested usage is 1mg/kg, but the caps are 200mg even 300mg. Is there a benefit to the higher dose? I used Epichaos a few years back and liked it, but I didn't really notice a difference when trying more than 1ml, so seems to me half the pill is wasted? Or is the bioavailability much lower with oral administration?

It's hard to give a concrete answer to your question on the oral dosage of Epicatechin raw materials because there is a lot of quality discrepancy between Epicatechin raw materials. A lot of products on the market don't actually use legitimate high % Epicatechin, you will see a lot of labels that list it in a way that its Green Tea standardized for a certain % Epicatechin but many don't even specify the percentage.

Epicatechin is orally bioavailable, but like most things, the dosage that you would want to use would be higher than it would be versus a td form, and it is helpful to add Bioperine/Piperine to it to enhance absorption.

CEL Epi-Plex is very popular and is 300 mg. actual Epicatechin per capsule + Bioperine for increased absorption. The average dose is 2 capsules per day.

Xtreme Performance Gels Epicatechin Gel contains 100 mg. per ml and 100 ml/10 grams total Epicatechin per bottle.

It really comes down to preference as to whether you prefer a capsule or a topical.

Some people say they respond better to a topical Epicatechin than a capsule, but most people are going to respond the same or close to the same either way, so it would come down to preference.

I personally use Epi-Plex and its one of the best things I've ever used for muscular endurance and has a lot of overall health benefits, so I consider it a part of my general supplement regimen.

I may try XPG's Epicatechin Gel at some point or more likely try it on top of Epi-Plex and see if I get any additional benefit.

Epi-Plex - you can find for 29.99 to 39.99 per bottle for 60 caps @ 300 mg. per cap.

Epicatechin Gel - you can find for 39.99 per bottle for 100 ml per ml (100 servings per bottle).

Here is the link to a review that @TheMrMuscle did on Epi-Plex and he goes into a lot of detail; he's one of the most meticulous people here with the details that he provides on things.

CEL Epi-Plex Mini Review - AnabolicMinds.com

Competitive Edge Labs Epi-Plex Mini-Review Background 42 Years old Lifted weights for 25 years Tracked my food and training since 1999 Natural Basics 2,5 bottle run (so far) 1 cap with meal 1 (pre workout) and 1 cap with meal 5 (pre bed) Calories in a slight deficit Experience This is a...

anabolicminds.com

 

[Resolve10]

Not sure exactly where you are getting the 1mg/kg, oral dosing has always been quite a bit higher. CEL Epi-Plex is probably the best value and of the highest quality in regards to Epicatechin. 1 cap/300mg per day is great as an overall health booster with some moderate performance benefits. Bumping to 2 caps/600mg is probably the sweet spot though for endurance, pumps, and body composition benefits.

Some do prefer transdermal though. XPG Epicatechin is the best value with its 100mg per serving/10g per bottle if that is your preference.

If you get the benefits you desire at lower dosage, more power to you, just means you don't need as much.

Edit: got beaten to the punch with a much more thorough response above.

 

[MadStax]

Not sure exactly where you are getting the 1mg/kg, oral dosing has always been quite a bit higher. CEL Epi-Plex is probably the best value and of the highest quality in regards to Epicatechin. 1 cap/300mg per day is great as an overall health booster with some moderate performance benefits. Bumping to 2 caps/600mg is probably the sweet spot though for endurance, pumps, and body composition benefits.

Some do prefer transdermal though. XPG Epicatechin is the best value with its 100mg per serving/10g per bottle if that is your preference.

If you get the benefits you desire at lower dosage, more power to you, just means you don't need as much.

Edit: got beaten to the punch with a much more thorough response above.

The only real study I could find recommended the dosage of 1mg/kg but that was in mice I think. The study was not very well written or maybe I'm just dumb. I couldn't really figure out what they all tested and how the results are applicable to the human model.

Effects of (−)-epicatechin on molecular modulators of skeletal muscle growth and differentiation

Sarcopenia is a notable and debilitating age-associated condition. Flavonoids are known for their healthy effects and limited toxicity. The flavanol (−)-epicatechin (Epi) enhances exercise capacity in mice and Epi-rich cocoa improves skeletal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Resolve10]

The only real study I could find recommended the dosage of 1mg/kg but that was in mice I think. The study was not very well written or maybe I'm just dumb. I couldn't really figure out what they all tested and how the results are applicable to the human model.

Effects of (−)-epicatechin on molecular modulators of skeletal muscle growth and differentiation

Sarcopenia is a notable and debilitating age-associated condition. Flavonoids are known for their healthy effects and limited toxicity. The flavanol (−)-epicatechin (Epi) enhances exercise capacity in mice and Epi-rich cocoa improves skeletal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Oh sweet ya I see it in there. Based on feedback I’ve seen that figure seems low, but I do also think there is potential for benefits at doses lower than what people think, as long as the product does contain a good source of Epicatechin.

 

[sns8778]

The only real study I could find recommended the dosage of 1mg/kg but that was in mice I think. The study was not very well written or maybe I'm just dumb. I couldn't really figure out what they all tested and how the results are applicable to the human model.

Effects of (−)-epicatechin on molecular modulators of skeletal muscle growth and differentiation

Sarcopenia is a notable and debilitating age-associated condition. Flavonoids are known for their healthy effects and limited toxicity. The flavanol (−)-epicatechin (Epi) enhances exercise capacity in mice and Epi-rich cocoa improves skeletal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The dosage translation from mice to humans isn't exact; it's an equation, and then there are further equations for oral bioavailability to determine the best dosage. And even then, some things may need to be adjusted further based on real world feedback and results.

In this case, I can speak for Epi-Plex in saying that it has been a good seller and has had great feedback for years. The suggested use is 1 300 mg. capsule twice per day; you could certainly take less if you wanted to though. For me, I've found 600 mg. to be great and 900 mg. to be ideal when I'm doing endurance specific training.

 

[sns8778]

Oh sweet ya I see it in there. Based on feedback I’ve seen that figure seems low, but I do also think there is potential for benefits at doses lower than what people think, as long as the product does contain a good source of Epicatechin.

I agree. I think its similar to Apigenin in that there are a lot of great potential health benefits at lower dosing and then for the best athletic and physique goal results, the dosage needs to be a bit higher.

I definitely think for example that Epi-Plex could have good potential even at 1 capsule per day, but the best results would come at higher dosing.

 

[MadStax]

The dosage translation from mice to humans isn't exact; it's an equation, and then there are further equations for oral bioavailability to determine the best dosage. And even then, some things may need to be adjusted further based on real world feedback and results.

In this case, I can speak for Epi-Plex in saying that it has been a good seller and has had great feedback for years. The suggested use is 1 300 mg. capsule twice per day; you could certainly take less if you wanted to though. For me, I've found 600 mg. to be great and 900 mg. to be ideal when I'm doing endurance specific training.

At 600mg/day it seems to be about the same price as Apex gel at 100mg/day. I think I'll roll the dice and try CEL. I love Apex, but I think even with poor bioavailability it must be better at the higher dose. If not, nothing wasted anyway. Thanks a lot!

 

[MadStax]

I agree. I think its similar to Apigenin in that there are a lot of great potential health benefits at lower dosing and then for the best athletic and physique goal results, the dosage needs to be a bit higher.

I definitely think for example that Epi-Plex could have good potential even at 1 capsule per day, but the best results would come at higher dosing.

Do you happen to know the difference between (+)-Epicatechin and (-)-Epicatechin?

 

[sns8778]

At 600mg/day it seems to be about the same price as Apex gel at 100mg/day. I think I'll roll the dice and try CEL. I love Apex, but I think even with poor bioavailability it must be better at the higher dose. If not, nothing wasted anyway. Thanks a lot!

I think that you'll get more benefit of 600 mg. per day oral than 100 mg. per day topical imo.

I think that for proper topical dosing, you would still need minimum 200 mg. per day.

For example, Xtreme Performance Gels utilizes an excellent carrier (the Avant Labs carrier) and the suggested use is 1 to 2 ml twice per day - so that's 200 mg. to 400 mg. per day. And its by far that best value for a topical/td product at 10 grams per bottle for around 39.99.

 

[sns8778]

Do you happen to know the difference between (+)-Epicatechin and (-)-Epicatechin?

In my opinion, I don't believe that (+)-Epicatechin is commercially available at a viable price and even if it was, I don't think that it is any better, and may be potentially not as good as real (-)-Epicatechin.

My source on that is confirming it with the 3 largest Epicatechin suppliers - not the resellers or raw material companies selling it, but the actual factories making it, including the largest branded ingredient Epicatechin supplier in the world.

(There are a lot of raw material companies that sell/resell Epicatechin, but there actually aren't a lot of facilities that actually produce real high purity Epicatechin.)

And, according to the same sources, there would really be no purpose in pursuing commercial production levels of it because it would simply be a lot more expensive for likely no better results. AND, and this is an important one, if they were to make it, there may would be some potential patent infringement issues with it as well.

Disclaimer - my post isn't meant to make anyone mad, hurt anyone's feelings, or make anyone look bad - you asked me a question and I just provided you with an honest answer. (You put me on the spot, so I blame you haha )

 

[LeanEngineer]

Here's acouple good ones over at strong supplement shop:

Epicatechin Gel by XPG

Unlock your muscle growth potential and overcome your genetic limitations with Epicatechin Gel by XPG. This revolutionary topical product harnesses the power of the bioactive flavanol, Epicatechin, renowned for its profound impact on muscle development and recovery.

www.strongsupplementshop.com

Epi 2.0 by Vital Alchemy

Epi 2.0 by Vital Alchemy is the most potent epicatechin supplement available on the market and is exclusively available here! Order Now! Same Day Shipping!

www.strongsupplementshop.com

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

i love -epi at 600mg ..cel epi-plex being the way to go for me
$30 capped 18g of product

 

[MadStax]

Does it matter whether they use a product standardized to 90%, 95%, or 98% purity? Should be the same in the end as long as the actual amount of Epi is correct? Also, it's really interesting to me that a lot of these companies don't even mention how much Epi they are putting much less what the purity is. Who buys this ****?

 

[sns8778]

Does it matter whether they use a product standardized to 90%, 95%, or 98% purity? Should be the same in the end as long as the actual amount of Epi is correct? Also, it's really interesting to me that a lot of these companies don't even mention how much Epi they are putting much less what the purity is. Who buys this ****?

Companies play a lot of games with the way they label Epicatechin products and it sucks for consumers that don't understand a lot of the labeling semantics that companies use to trick them.

I go on and on on here about how it bothers me that some companies treat labeling laws like they don't exist - some play deceptive games with labels which is unethical but legal, whereas some others just straight out lie on labels.

I've been meaning to do an article on that subject in general; but here's a quick overview:

Let's take Epi-Plex for example:

The label states:
(-)- Epicatechin - 300 mg.

^^^^ That means that there is 300 mg. of actual Epicatechin per capsule.

In a case like that, it wouldn't really matter the % used because its being identified on the label by the actual active amount, which is 300 mg. So, in a case like that - 307 mg. at 98% is 300 mg., 316 mg. at 95% is 300 mg., or 334 mg. at 90% is 300 mg.

However, let's say that the label said:
(-)-Epicatechin (90%) - 300 mg.

^^^ then in that scenario that would mean there was 300 mg. of Epicatechin raw materials at a 90% purity so that would actually be 270 mg. active.

To a consumer that doesn't know the difference, these things look the same but are different.

Then, let's take another scenario, the dreaded proprietary blend:
______ Ingredient XYZ, Epicatechin, _____ Ingredient XYZ - ___ mg.

^^^ the problem in that scenario is that it could literally be only 1 mg. Epicatechin because by law, a proprietary blend is supposed to be listed from highest dose to lowest dose. So it could really be almost all of the first listed ingredient and then the ones after it could be just for window dressing.

Then, you have another way you see it labeled and that is that you'll see it stated in some way showing Green Tea and in parenthesis, standardized for Epicatechin - and in that scenario you have no idea at all how much Epicatechin is in there or if they're just selling Green Tea bc it would contain a slight amount of Epicatechin in it, trivial, but they're technically not breaking the law.


I hope that all helps and make sense.

 

[MadStax]

Companies play a lot of games with the way they label Epicatechin products and it sucks for consumers that don't understand a lot of the labeling semantics that companies use to trick them.

I go on and on on here about how it bothers me that some companies treat labeling laws like they don't exist - some play deceptive games with labels which is unethical but legal, whereas some others just straight out lie on labels.

I've been meaning to do an article on that subject in general; but here's a quick overview:

Let's take Epi-Plex for example:

The label states:
(-)- Epicatechin - 300 mg.

^^^^ That means that there is 300 mg. of actual Epicatechin per capsule.

In a case like that, it wouldn't really matter the % used because its being identified on the label by the actual active amount, which is 300 mg. So, in a case like that - 307 mg. at 98% is 300 mg., 316 mg. at 95% is 300 mg., or 334 mg. at 90% is 300 mg.

However, let's say that the label said:
(-)-Epicatechin (90%) - 300 mg.

^^^ then in that scenario that would mean there was 300 mg. of Epicatechin raw materials at a 90% purity so that would actually be 270 mg. active.

To a consumer that doesn't know the difference, these things look the same but are different.

Then, let's take another scenario, the dreaded proprietary blend:
______ Ingredient XYZ, Epicatechin, _____ Ingredient XYZ - ___ mg.

^^^ the problem in that scenario is that it could literally be only 1 mg. Epicatechin because by law, a proprietary blend is supposed to be listed from highest dose to lowest dose. So it could really be almost all of the first listed ingredient and then the ones after it could be just for window dressing.

Then, you have another way you see it labeled and that is that you'll see it stated in some way showing Green Tea and in parenthesis, standardized for Epicatechin - and in that scenario you have no idea at all how much Epicatechin is in there or if they're just selling Green Tea bc it would contain a slight amount of Epicatechin in it, trivial, but they're technically not breaking the law.


I hope that all helps and make sense.

Wow! Thanks for that great reply! I kind of had the feeling it was shady, but didn't realize how bad. I once designed a label for a product I sold and within weeks had some jerk at my company telling me I had to recall everything and relabel because I only put ml and didn't include ounces. They wanted to fine me, but I played dumb and talked my way out of it. Seems crazy to me that they find that a super serious offense, but don't care about companies actually duping customers! Gotta love government regionally minutia!

 

[sns8778]

Wow! Thanks for that great reply! I kind of had the feeling it was shady, but didn't realize how bad. I once designed a label for a product I sold and within weeks had some jerk at my company telling me I had to recall everything and relabel because I only put ml and didn't include ounces. They wanted to fine me, but I played dumb and talked my way out of it. Seems crazy to me that they find that a super serious offense, but don't care about companies actually duping customers! Gotta love government regionally minutia!

You're very welcome. I'm always glad to help.

Educational discussions on supplements, whether it be the ingredients themselves or things like this to help educate consumers are things that I enjoy and am passionate about. Unfortunately, it feels a lot of times like it falls on deaf ears with a lot of people.

It's not that the FDA doesn't care - they care if labeling guidelines are followed; but there are always going to be people and companies that find ways to manipulate that. The biggest issue is the number of companies that just straight out lie and put whatever they want to on the label regardless of what is actually in the product.

From the FDA's side, there is just no possible way for them to see everything that's being done wrong in this industry. A few years ago, they made a very clear statement to this industry that if it didn't start policing itself better, if they had to step in, the industry was going to wind up with a list of things that it could sell to keep it simple. Fly by nights and companies out to make a quick buck don't care about that - they're just in it to make a quick buck. I try to educate people on it myself and I commend the big companies like NOW Foods that started tested a lot of shady brands products and posting the results publicly and turning the companies in to the FDA - most of which in their case has been shady companies on Amazon.

This industry has a real problem with companies that want to call themselves supplement companies but that don't follow any of the laws in this industry in terms of quality testing or even basic microbial and heavy metals safety testing.

I try to never say anything negative about other brands and I stick to talking about subjects and issues - but it really bothers me to see consumers mislead and ripped off in so many ways. It hurts the consumer, the industry itself, and its terrible for the companies that actually do things the right way to have to compete against companies that do things those ways.

 

[raulob72]

Follidrone is pretty good too.

 

[AndroRage]

Anyone who isn’t a rep or have a vested interest care to give a comparison of oral Epi and Transdermal? I ask as I can get both now in the UK (was normally just oral). Ideally no bias reviews please guys.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Epichaos is on sale BOGO free. you could use copious amounts of APEX with its second to none carrier.

 

[Resolve10]

Anyone who isn’t a rep or have a vested interest care to give a comparison of oral Epi and Transdermal? I ask as I can get both now in the UK (was normally just oral). Ideally no bias reviews please guys.

Id be interested in more experiences like this too, especially responses about different dosages compared between the two.

I’ve enjoyed CEL Epi-Plex and the recent announcement of an updated version has me itching to run some again, but I also really want to try the XPG Epicatechin gel eventually too.

 

[AndroRage]

Apex or XPG topical. Oral does not enter the conversation.

Care to elaborate

Apex or XPG topical. Oral does not enter the conversation.

Can you elaborate Bro?

 

[sns8778]

Being a rep really doesn't have anything to do with providing a factual explanation between the two.

For example, we've offered Epi-Plex under CEL for years, which we're getting ready to launch an updated version of. Then there is Epicatechin Gel under Xtreme Performance Gels which is 100 mg. per ml/10 grams per bottle at a great price.

The reason that we offer both forms is that one person may like one better, the other may like the other better.

Oftentimes with orals versus topicals, the only difference really is personal preference and the way that you do the dosages. The dosage for most topicals isn't going to be as high as would be taken for orals - people sometimes misunderstand that and think that it means that something necessarily has bad oral bioavailability, but there are very few things that you absorb every mg you take of. Even many basic vitamins, you don't absorb the mg. you take, you take a high enough mg that you get the amount you need after you factor for absorption. I hope that makes sense.

When it comes to oral bioavailability with Epicatechin, the oral bioavailability isn't too bad to begin with and then adding Bioperine/Piperine helps a lot with that.

Most of the time with Epicatechin, its going to come down to personal preference on which one a person likes better. Occasionally, someone may try both types and find that they respond better to one or the other (topical versus oral), but that may depend on the person and could go either way. For example, you and me could both try capsules and then try topical and switch and one may like one better and the other like the other better (or we may like them both equally).

There have been a lot of reviews and feedback on Epi-Plex over the years. Here's a link to a good mini-review from a very well respected poster here:

CEL Epi-Plex Mini Review - AnabolicMinds.com

Competitive Edge Labs Epi-Plex Mini-Review Background 42 Years old Lifted weights for 25 years Tracked my food and training since 1999 Natural Basics 2,5 bottle run (so far) 1 cap with meal 1 (pre workout) and 1 cap with meal 5 (pre bed) Calories in a slight deficit Experience This is a...

anabolicminds.com

Here's a link to a recent XPG Epicatechin log/review:

XPG Epicatechin Gel log - AnabolicMinds.com

I finished a td 4-andro and epi cycle today with some extra epi I had in another bottle. Will be starting the epicatechin tomorrow. I'm going to use 2 pumps the first 5 days and then change to 3. I want to make this last 5 weeks. Really excited to see if this will slow my deload and maybe even...

anabolicminds.com

 

[botk1161]

Care to elaborate



Can you elaborate Bro?

I have used all the Oral versions available and for many years. I find topical much much much more effective for same money spent.

 

[AndroRage]

I have used all the Oral versions available and for many years. I find topical much much much more effective for same money spent.

What kind of dosage topical, is there an amount you feel is minimum? Or Optimal?

 

[botk1161]

What kind of dosage topical, is there an amount you feel is minimum? Or Optimal?

For the Apex one, as little as 5 pumps on each forearm and I am pumped and good to go. I never got near the pump or immediate energy I get from the topical versions from oral.