Best cutting supplement

OCTODRENE HARDCORE BY IDL IS A GREAT FAT KILLER (WORTH LOOKING INTO) !!!! ANOTHER ONE WORTH LOOKING INTO IS ALPHAGAINZ BAIBA POWDER WHICH IS GREAT TOO ...
 
john.patterson said:
This will be the biggest key to cutting success. Sounds like you understand nutrition and you've dialed in a good plan. I would also recommend yohimbine to use for your cardio sessions. Yohimbine is a great ingredient that can help with stubborn body fat.

Another ingredient to look into would be forskolin, which has been studied to help increase/maintain lean body mass while decreasing fat mass. As far as products go, I would check out Oxymax XT. Oxymax XT contains both yohimbine and forskolin, along with other solid ingredients that will help with appetite suppression, energy and mood, and fat burning.
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Oxymax XT is the real sh*t.
 
hydrox said:
Just placed an order for some Olympus Labs Ignit3.
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Nice! Start with 2 caps to assess your tolerance. Ignit3 is very strong. What I eventually settled on during my run was 2 caps in the morning on an empty stomach, followed by 3 caps later in the day before my workout. If you can fit in ~15-20 minutes fasted HIIT after the morning dose, you'll get even better results. I did this on a reasonably small caloric deficit (-300kcal/day), and dropped weight faster than when I did -500kcal/day with a YC stack.
 
Lynks8 said:
Nice! Start with 2 caps to assess your tolerance. Ignit3 is very strong. What I eventually settled on during my run was 2 caps in the morning on an empty stomach, followed by 3 caps later in the day before my workout. If you can fit in ~15-20 minutes fasted HIIT after the morning dose, you'll get even better results. I did this on a reasonably small caloric deficit (-300kcal/day), and dropped weight faster than when I did -500kcal/day with a YC stack.
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Thanks man I appreciate it. I'll do a log of it once I receive it.
 
Here's the deal: if one has a serious heart problem s/he should not use any of this stuff anyway. And you can get great results by simply eating right.

If you are healthy and know what you are doing, ECA stack beats pretty much anything else that is legal at this point. It's cheap, it's legal, it's easy to dose and it works, period.

Of course, there are some things out there that are not legal, and some that I would not want to touch with a 10-foot pole even if it was legal and free - but those do not count. I actually use ECA (2 doses per day) on a cut right now stacked with Ostarine, and I can't even feel like I am taking anything. Yet, it works incredibly well. Disclaimer: this is just my personal experience and I am generally not sensitive to stimulants. 400mg of caffeine I can't feel at all, and I can sleep like a baby in the evening.
 
gagandugan said:
Here's the deal: if one has a serious heart problem s/he should not use any of this stuff anyway. And you can get great results by simply eating right.

If you are healthy and know what you are doing, ECA stack beats pretty much anything else that is legal at this point. It's cheap, it's legal, it's easy to dose and it works, period.

Of course, there are some things out there that are not legal, and some that I would not want to touch with a 10-foot pole even if it was legal and free - but those do not count. I actually use ECA (2 doses per day) on a cut right now stacked with Ostarine, and I can't even feel like I am taking anything. Yet, it works incredibly well. Disclaimer: this is just my personal experience and I am generally not sensitive to stimulants. 400mg of caffeine I can't feel at all, and I can sleep like a baby in the evening.
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ECA is great :)
 
I think I remember reading an article that said that over time ephedra would actually REDUCE b/p?

any of you science guys know anything about this?
 
thebigt said:
I think I remember reading an article that said that over time ephedra would actually REDUCE b/p?

any of you science guys know anything about this?
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I don't know about lowering, but this one says:

Although systolic blood pressure increases quickly after administration, the increase is nearly abolished by compensatory mechanisms.
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Have fun with this one :D -----> Invalid Link Removed
 
ephedrine

anything else just cracks you out or doesnt work ( in the case of transdermals)
 
Br1ck_Sh1thouse said:
Toff
I'm assuming you have personally experience with the 3,5 t2? If so what are your thoughts on effectiveness compared to ECA? Are they equal? What brand did you use?
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Used a few - original pes Shift, iForce tt-33, and some others I forget.

Blackstone labs still do one, and some others:
SNS Thyrocaps 3,3 T2 $14.99 Invalid Link Removed


iForce TT-33 14.99 ebay

Pure Clinical - Pure Burn - T2 - £19.99

PEScience: Alpha-T2 19.99 ($24.99 out there)




Antaeus labs: 3,5-T2 29.99 180tabs, 90 day supply


Are they equal? No, I would suggest stacking them, as its non-stim. If ephedrine not available, you could go for yohimbine. ECA will increase fatloss, Yoh will increase bloodflow to ustilise fat stores
 
thebigt said:
I think I remember reading an article that said that over time ephedra would actually REDUCE b/p?

any of you science guys know anything about this?
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I remember this as well, it was after 12 weeks continuous use
 
Synapsin said:
T2 is actually not very effective. Not worth the money at all.
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Are you referring to 3,5-T2? If so, your own post doesn't support this conclusion. You link to two studies; one goes so far as to say "the ability of T2 to increase metabolism is not in doubt", whereas the other concludes, in its bottom line, that "3,5-T2 (but not 3,3'-T2) seems to mimic the effects of T3 on serum TSH and GH levels in rats."

There's plenty of data that shows that 3,5-T2 is effective -- both in rats and, pointedly, in healthy human volunteers. I can't post links but, for e.g., see: Antonelli A, Fallahi P, Ferrari SM, et al. 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine increases resting metabolic rate and reduces body weight without undesirable side effects. J Biol Regul Homeost Agents. 2011;25(4):655-60.
 
JakeAntaeus said:
Are you referring to 3,5-T2? If so, your own post doesn't support this conclusion. You link to two studies; one goes so far as to say "the ability of T2 to increase metabolism is not in doubt", whereas the other concludes, in its bottom line, that "3,5-T2 (but not 3,3'-T2) seems to mimic the effects of T3 on serum TSH and GH levels in rats."

There's plenty of data that shows that 3,5-T2 is effective -- both in rats and, pointedly, in healthy human volunteers. I can't post links but, for e.g., see: Antonelli A, Fallahi P, Ferrari SM, et al. 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine increases resting metabolic rate and reduces body weight without undesirable side effects. J Biol Regul Homeost Agents. 2011;25(4):655-60.
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Are you even reading the full texts? Read them and tell me the results they got are worth the money. Also, the text you linked had a whopping total of 2 subjects; that is just cherry picking and poor science. You also don't acknowledge any possibility of shut down, which is irresponsible.
 
Synapsin said:
Are you even reading the full texts? Read them and tell me the results they got are worth the money. Also, the text you linked had a whopping total of 2 subjects; that is just cherry picking and poor science. You also don't acknowledge any possibility of shut down, which is irresponsible.
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It's called a case report study. The results they obtained -- in humans, no less -- still attained statistical significance. This generally indicates that said results are promising, hence worthy of publication, rather than the opposite.

Besides, what you're doing isn't cherry-picking? There are many studies that demonstrate that 3,5-T2 works -- that it has very real biological effects. For another pair of examples, "3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine powerfully reduces adiposity in rats by increasing the burning of fats," and "Nonthyrotoxic prevention of diet-induced insulin resistance by 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine in rats."

See also the reviews: "Thyroid: biological actions of ‘nonclassical’ thyroid hormones" and "Biological effects of 3,5-diiodothyronine (T(2))."

...All things considered, there's really very little basis for suggesting that it doesn't work. Also little basis for suggesting that it isn't worth the price, especially considering that its price isn't steep. There are actually rather few ingredients with more, or more impressive, data.

If you were implying that 3,3-T2 doesn't work, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The 3,5 version, however, is another matter entirely.
 
JakeAntaeus said:
It's called a case report study. The results they obtained -- in humans, no less -- still attained statistical significance. This generally indicates that said results are promising, hence worthy of publication, rather than the opposite.

Besides, what you're doing isn't cherry-picking? There are many studies that demonstrate that 3,5-T2 works -- that it has very real biological effects. For another pair of examples, "3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine powerfully reduces adiposity in rats by increasing the burning of fats," and "Nonthyrotoxic prevention of diet-induced insulin resistance by 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine in rats."

See also the reviews: "Thyroid: biological actions of ‘nonclassical’ thyroid hormones" and "Biological effects of 3,5-diiodothyronine (T(2))."

...All things considered, there's really very little basis for suggesting that it doesn't work. Also little basis for suggesting that it isn't worth the price, especially considering that its price isn't steep. There are actually rather few ingredients with more, or more impressive, data.

If you were implying that 3,3-T2 doesn't work, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The 3,5 version, however, is another matter entirely.
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I know what case studies are, and fyi extrapolating data from a case study is a very naive thing to do. You don't have to explain statistical significance to me; I am a scientist and I know statistics rather well. You can't even do a post hoc analysis / Bonferroni correction for the study you provided given the lack of a comparison group. FYI statistical significance is a poor measure of performance sometimes given that it only means you can reject the null hypothesis. How is that particularly useful without a placebo group?

No, what I'm doing is not cherry picking; what I am doing is an example of posting studies that are actually designed well instead of one's designed to support my own opinion (doesn't particularly help that to my knowledge your company sells a product containing T2). FYI I used to like T2 products so I have no inherent bias against them; I was around when the whole drama with iforce and thermolife was going on regarding these ingredients. Also I don't care about rat studies for this topic since as you said, there are studies on humans available. Biological function does not equate clinical significance. You are also not addressing any issue of thyroidal dysfunction after product use.
 
Synapsin said:
I know what case studies are, and fyi extrapolating data from a case study is a very naive thing to do. You don't have to explain statistical significance to me; I am a scientist and I know statistics rather well. You can't even do a post hoc analysis / Bonferroni correction for the study you provided given the lack of a comparison group. FYI statistical significance is a poor measure of performance sometimes given that it only means you can reject the null hypothesis. How is that particularly useful without a placebo group?

No, what I'm doing is not cherry picking; what I am doing is an example of posting studies that are actually designed well instead of one's designed to support my own opinion (doesn't particularly help that to my knowledge your company sells a product containing T2). FYI I used to like T2 products so I have no inherent bias against them; I was around when the whole drama with iforce and thermolife was going on regarding these ingredients. Also I don't care about rat studies for this topic since as you said, there are studies on humans available. Biological function does not equate clinical significance. You are also not addressing any issue of thyroidal dysfunction after product use.
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Extrapolating data? They got noteworthy results in humans with 3,5-T2, at a moderate dose. There's nothing to "extrapolate." (In itself, it's not quite as strong or as conclusive as I'd have liked to see, but such is life.)

One extrapolates from animal studies and in vitro data. One can make rather strong inferences from human case studies. With 3,5-T2, there's plenty of data to go around.

"No, what I'm doing is not cherry picking; what I am doing is an example of posting studies that are actually designed well"

You linked to two papers.

One is an older (1998) study on hypothyroid rats. This study actually said nothing about bodyweight and extremely little about metabolism. Frankly, it's almost entirely irrelevant. (And the conclusions it did reach demonstrate that 3,5-T2 has biological effects that 3,3 doesn't!)

The other isn't a proper study, but is a report on a study. That one, also in rats, employed very high doses of 3,5-T2 -- its human equivalent is far in excess of anything anybody would ever consider using -- and wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles, they discovered that at such doses it may have side effects!

...Come on, man. As a "scientist," you should review the evidence and realize that the biological effects of 3,5-T2 are well established. There are dozens of "well designed" studies on the stuff.
 
JakeAntaeus said:
Extrapolating data? They got noteworthy results in humans with 3,5-T2, at a moderate dose. There's nothing to "extrapolate." (In itself, it's not quite as strong or as conclusive as I'd have liked to see, but such is life.)

One extrapolates from animal studies and in vitro data. One can make rather strong inferences from human case studies. With 3,5-T2, there's plenty of data to go around.

"No, what I'm doing is not cherry picking; what I am doing is an example of posting studies that are actually designed well"

You linked to two papers.

One is an older (1998) study on hypothyroid rats. This study actually said nothing about bodyweight and extremely little about metabolism. Frankly, it's almost entirely irrelevant. (And the conclusions it did reach demonstrate that 3,5-T2 has biological effects that 3,3 doesn't!)

The other isn't a proper study, but is a report on a study. That one, also in rats, employed very high doses of 3,5-T2 -- its human equivalent is far in excess of anything anybody would ever consider using -- and wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles, they discovered that at such doses it may have side effects!

...Come on, man. As a "scientist," you should review the evidence and realize that the biological effects of 3,5-T2 are well established. There are dozens of "well designed" studies on the stuff.
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You literally addressed none of my concerns and are resorting to a strawman fallacy (you are distorting my views as I never said 3,5 was not biologically active; I said it was worthless and not worth the money in the grand scheme of things). You also don't even know what extrapolate means:

ex·trap·o·late
verb
extend the application of (a method or conclusion, especially one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.

You were literally extrapolating data based on 2 humans. You are also not addressing safety concerns on a synthetic T2 product on thyroidal function after ceasing use of the product (which I have brought up twice thus far). You also haven't addressed any of my statistical concerns or what clinical significance means. I don't see any need to reply further because my thoughts on the topic are well addressed here. Anyone who reads this thread can make their own informed decision based on here. You can of course reply to this reply since its only fair you get your say in too, but I won't be replying to it unless its extremely compelling; enjoy your weekend.
 
Synapsin said:
You were literally extrapolating data based on 2 humans.
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Two humans... and a heap of other studies, most of which are in no way inferior to the ones you posted yourself. 3,5-T2 has got more data backing it up, and more compelling data, than many other supplement ingredients.

I don't see any need to reply further because my thoughts on the topic are well addressed here. Anyone who reads this thread can make their own informed decision based on here. You can of course reply to this reply since its only fair you get your say in too, but I won't be replying to it unless its extremely compelling; enjoy your weekend.
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Fair enough, mate. I feel the same way. Readers of this thread can draw their own conclusions. Enjoy your weekend as well! :wavey:
 
It seems everybody is a scientist or a formulator nowdays. I guess it is easy to be one on the bodybuilding forums.
 
Rushie said:
It seems everybody is a scientist or a formulator nowdays. I guess it is easy to be one on the bodybuilding forums.
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I am a Scientist in real life, so not sure what you're insinuating; various companies I have formulated for can back this up.
 
Rushie said:
It seems everybody is a scientist or a formulator nowdays. I guess it is easy to be one on the bodybuilding forums.
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Synapsin said:
I am a Scientist in real life, so not sure what you're insinuating; various companies I have formulated for can back this up.
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I picture that thug life gif here where Synapsin just rolled on out. ?
 
Doesn't oxymax xt have it?

Tried just the one the other day, when the euphoria kicked in I couldn't stop having giggling fits. :D
 
huxley309 said:
Doesn't oxymax xt have it?

Tried just the one the other day, when the euphoria kicked in I couldn't stop having giggling fits. :D
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Yes OxyMax XT does contain Rauwolscine. However, my bet is the giggles and good mood more than likely came from the B-phenylethylamine, Eria Jarensis, Amentoflavone combo. It's nice euphoric relaxed feeling.
 
Cubsfan815 whatcha think about this game 7 tonight brother? Hopefully we didn't burn Chapman out last night lol
 
mmorso said:
Cubsfan815 whatcha think about this game 7 tonight brother? Hopefully we didn't burn Chapman out last night lol
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I can't even talk about it lmao. Today is national stress awareness day too, perfect timing. Chapman is fine if imagine, he's a strong dude. This has been great series, and 2 very fun teams to follow.
 
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