Benefit from T3 and T4 Supplements

DemntedCowboy

DemntedCowboy

Well-known member
The thyroid gland is located in the throat, just above the sternum. This gland releases two hormones Thyroxine(T4) and triiodothyronine(T3). Both stimulate metabolism. T3 is more powerful than T4 though. Also, most T4 converts to T3 in tissue outside the thyroid gland. Metabolism decreases by 50% when the body can't secrete these hormones. Metabolic rate increases 60 to 100% if the body secretes too much. Thyroid hormone is also important in muscle growth. A review by Columbia University concluded that T3 is important for satelite cell formation in skeletal muscle. Lithuanian scientist found that supplementing T3 and T4 was more beneficial than the common practice of prescribing only T3. Maintaining optimal thyroid function is important for muscle growth. -Muscledevelopment Aug 2017.
 
This is a long post but fuk it, these quotes are damn gems:


Question on 25mcg dose:"I thought that 25mcg of T3 is what the body naturally produces... why suppress your thyroid function with exogenous T3 to get the same levels you should endogenously?"

Answer:

Spurfy said:
a. 25 mcg is what an ideally functioning thyroid gland under ideal physiologic conditions produces.

b. Exogenous testosterone lowers TSH and T4 production (1,2)

c. Circulating estrogens increase levels of TBG (3) -- unless your E2 control is absolutely on point, this is an issue

d. T3, at physiologic doses, is highly promotive of muscle anabolism (4)

e. Thyroid shutdown very quickly reverses upon discontinuation of exogenous thyroid drugs

f. Theres no such thing as permanent thyroid shutdown from T3 -- this would kill you within days. T3, along with cortisol and insulin, are the three critical hormones necessary for survival.

Theres no reason not to use 25 mcg T3 on every cycle.

1. Iran Biomed J. 2013 Oct; 17(4): 221–224.
2. Life Sci. 1998;62(22):2035-43.
3. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Oct;65(4):689-96.
4. J Endocrinol Diabetes Obes. 2014 Jul-Sep; 2(3): 1046.
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More on thyroid shutdown:

David Dunn said:
Guys need to research

Just a couple human and rat

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Recovery begins pretty quickly and the fears of sustained suppression are greatly overstated.
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On T3 catabolism:

"Will taking 50mcg of T3 compromise LBM gains if you are running a typical AAS cycle, with say a minimum of 500mg/wk of testosterone?"

"Not a chance. It will, in all probability, improve them. Based on my understanding of human physiology, 50 mcg is the largest dose one can take, on or off-cycle, while ensuring that T3-induced muscle catabolism does not ever occur. Regardless, the muscle wasting effects of T3 can only occur when nitrogen excretion exceeds nitrogen retention. With adequate protein intake, no dose of T3 can cause muscle catabolism."

fueledpassion said:
For what it is worth ( I dont have the study in front of me ) there was a clinical study that measured the composition changes of men who were bed-ridden, on 50mcg T3 and 200mg Testosterone per week.

The subjects didnt lose any muscle mass. I distinctly remember this study because it eradicated my fears of losing mass while on T3.

Also, while I was running less than 400mg/wk of various androgens during contest prep, I ran 37.5-50mcg of T3 per day and added 8lbs of lean mass while losing 16lbs of fat mass. This was over the course of about 7-8 weeks though. Used in conjunction with insulin or boat loads of carbs, T3 actually becomes solely anabolic. The catabolic nature of T3 can easily be reduced or removed with insulin or carbs. Unlike other hormones, T3 is both catabolic AND anabolic - just depends on the metabolic environment (fasted or fed state)
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Nac said:
This is a long post but fuk it, these quotes are damn gems:


Question on 25mcg dose:"I thought that 25mcg of T3 is what the body naturally produces... why suppress your thyroid function with exogenous T3 to get the same levels you should endogenously?"

Answer:



More on thyroid shutdown:



On T3 catabolism:

"Will taking 50mcg of T3 compromise LBM gains if you are running a typical AAS cycle, with say a minimum of 500mg/wk of testosterone?"

"Not a chance. It will, in all probability, improve them. Based on my understanding of human physiology, 50 mcg is the largest dose one can take, on or off-cycle, while ensuring that T3-induced muscle catabolism does not ever occur. Regardless, the muscle wasting effects of T3 can only occur when nitrogen excretion exceeds nitrogen retention. With adequate protein intake, no dose of T3 can cause muscle catabolism."
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Thanks for the more info Nac
 
If I took 50mcg of cytomel.. my muscle will be chewed through like a mofo regardless of how much protein im eating.. I know this based on experience.. no thanks.. unless I'm taking gh..
 
criticalbench said:
If I took 50mcg of cytomel.. my muscle will be chewed through like a mofo regardless of how much protein im eating.. I know this based on experience.. no thanks.. unless I'm taking gh..
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In all honesty, you're probably just going flat because you aren't bringing your water and mineral intake up to par with the increased metabolism.

Dehydration and mineral depletion feels just like catabolism. Tis why most guys thay start cutting hard end up bailing on their efforts to lose bodyfat because they "feel" like they are getting small and their muscles don't pop like they should.

When taking T3 (with some sort of androgen of course), consider increasing water intake by at least half a gallon per day and start taking Magnesium, Potassium, Calcium and Vit-K2. Mag, pot & calcium should be taken with each meal as well as plenty of sodium. You'll notice a difference and the pumps will come back.
 
I am interested if something like MK677 and perhaps Antaeus Labs HH6 would be sufficient to fight off muscle loss? Is taking test the only option?
 
Great info and read on t3, but how does thyroid restore from long term use e.g 6 months at 50mcg per day.
 
fueledpassion said:
I don't have the studies in front of me but the consensus was 3-5 weeks for complete recovery. 2-4 weeks with proper thyroid supplements.
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Even after long term use, if so that is great to hear, what would be proper thyroid supplements, would one be kelp for iodine. also would it be better to taper from 50mcg to 25 to 12.5 to 12.5 eod and then stop or just drop altogether cold turkey.
 
paul56778 said:
Even after long term use, if so that is great to hear, what would be proper thyroid supplements, would one be kelp for iodine. also would it be better to taper from 50mcg to 25 to 12.5 to 12.5 eod and then stop or just drop altogether cold turkey.
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Yes, T3, like Insulin, is a key hormone that doesn't have a long period of suppression. The studies that I'm referring to were long term studies (several years of use).

The recovery was about the same regardless. It's not like androgens. As far as tapering goes, depends on how clean your diet is. If you aren't eating clean come time to cease T3, might want to taper just to prevent fat gain. You will be vulnerable for a couple of weeks.
 
A few things...

Can someone point me in the direction where it demonstrates just how much T3 boosts metabolism? I need to see where it says "60% increase when it's too high..."

Let me tell you, DNP raises TDEE by 10% for every 100mg. I did 300mg for 4 days and it was VERY strong. Strongest thing I've put in my body and 30% increase in TDEE was insane - far, far more potent than even 100mcg T3 daily.

So what variables are we using to measure "metabolism" ? I'm assuming TDEE or BMR. If that is what was meant by "metabolism" then the initial statement above needs revisions.

Let's bring some clarity around this - while T3 does enhance all things associated with metabolism and it does speed up processes, I do not think it has a proportional increase in TDEE. I'm almost certain other mechanisms at play will counter or suppress the effects of T3 for life-extension purposes (survival) but with DNP, no such counter exists.

Tis precisely why DNP is able to be a poison at higher doses - b/c the body has no mechanism to fight the effects. It means 1000mg per day = 100% increase in TDEE (give or take). Again, I'm telling you, 30% is nutz but bearable. T3 probably increases TDEE by 3-7% and even then I wouldn't give it any more than that. However, T3 most likely does prioritize nutrients coming into the body to muscle cells since protein turnover is greatly increased.
 
Smont said:
I highly doubt any Natty product will suffice.
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Well, I don't normally do this but I'll have to disagree here and this is why...

MA Labs Somatozine is freaking strong and GH does a great job at keeping fatty acids rolling steady in the blood, assuming you keep insulin sensitivity up.

I think with a 1.75g/lb of mass protein requirement with gobs of that being animal meat protein (roughly 60-75% of it) and with maybe some other helpful supplement or anabolic agent, you could pull it off with maybe 37.5-50mcg/day.

You'd need to rely on an impeccable diet, eating strictly every 2.5hrs and post workout/overnight downing something rather high in fats and carbs to keep calories optimal during recovery. Other than that, I think training legs & back 2 times per week would also help, assuming sleep is on point as well. Everything would have to be really consistent and perfect though to make it work really well. By consistent and perfect, I mean a discipline that I've seen few actually follow longer than a week or two.

Not sure why someone would be androgen averse unless it was due to not wanting to deal with sides and shutdown, but a few other things could be added to help stay anabolic.

I've regularly recommended Synthetek Syntheselen as a fat-burning & recovery agent and honestly, if taken religiously, the muscle fullness, energy and hardness is much like a mild PH - maybe something like 10mg of Epistane, except with way better stamina and strength than 10mg Epistane. Performance is more like a full blown test cycle, IME.

I would use Glucose Disposal Agents (GDA's) each meal and the Syntheselen pre-WO every day.
 
fueledpassion said:
Well, I don't normally do this but I'll have to disagree here and this is why...

MA Labs Somatozine is freaking strong and GH does a great job at keeping fatty acids rolling steady in the blood, assuming you keep insulin sensitivity up.

I think with a 1.75g/lb of mass protein requirement with gobs of that being animal meat protein (roughly 60-75% of it) and with maybe some other helpful supplement or anabolic agent, you could pull it off with maybe 37.5-50mcg/day.

You'd need to rely on an impeccable diet, eating strictly every 2.5hrs and post workout/overnight downing something rather high in fats and carbs to keep calories optimal during recovery. Other than that, I think training legs & back 2 times per week would also help, assuming sleep is on point as well. Everything would have to be really consistent and perfect though to make it work really well. By consistent and perfect, I mean a discipline that I've seen few actually follow longer than a week or two.

Not sure why someone would be androgen averse unless it was due to not wanting to deal with sides and shutdown, but a few other things could be added to help stay anabolic.

I've regularly recommended Synthetek Syntheselen as a fat-burning & recovery agent and honestly, if taken religiously, the muscle fullness, energy and hardness is much like a mild PH - maybe something like 10mg of Epistane, except with way better stamina and strength than 10mg Epistane. Performance is more like a full blown test cycle, IME.

I would use Glucose Disposal Agents (GDA's) each meal and the Syntheselen pre-WO every day.
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Good to know. I still don't think I'd try it but sense I haven't tried I wasn't aware. Have you tried without any juice?
 
Ive seen studies referenced at examine showing a 5% increase in "metabolic rate", not sure where the 60% is being mentioned.

Also seen rat studies where RMR increases 40%, but thats inj and gawd knows how much t3 (I cant be bothered converting).

But, the way I see it the t3 you take on-cycle is to optimise metabolism, or at least that aspect of it. Kinda like taking a trt dose of test when running tren. Any "supraphysiological" increases in metabolic rate are bonus.
 
Nac said:
Ive seen studies referenced at examine showing a 5% increase in "metabolic rate", not sure where the 60% is being mentioned.

Also seen rat studies where RMR increases 40%, but thats inj and gawd knows how much t3 (I cant be bothered converting).

But, the way I see it the t3 you take on-cycle is to optimise metabolism, or at least that aspect of it. Kinda like taking a trt dose of test when running tren. Any "supraphysiological" increases in metabolic rate are bonus.
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From just a series of anecdotes of historical cycling, I'd say this is a proper perspective to keep with T3.
 
Smont said:
Good to know. I still don't think I'd try it but sense I haven't tried I wasn't aware. Have you tried without any juice?
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Nope, not gonna either lol. I did however try it back to back with rHGH. It's comparable to a high quality underground GH @ 4iu.
 
fueledpassion said:
Well, I don't normally do this but I'll have to disagree here and this is why...

MA Labs Somatozine is freaking strong and GH does a great job at keeping fatty acids rolling steady in the blood, assuming you keep insulin sensitivity up.

I think with a 1.75g/lb of mass protein requirement with gobs of that being animal meat protein (roughly 60-75% of it) and with maybe some other helpful supplement or anabolic agent, you could pull it off with maybe 37.5-50mcg/day.

You'd need to rely on an impeccable diet, eating strictly every 2.5hrs and post workout/overnight downing something rather high in fats and carbs to keep calories optimal during recovery. Other than that, I think training legs & back 2 times per week would also help, assuming sleep is on point as well. Everything would have to be really consistent and perfect though to make it work really well. By consistent and perfect, I mean a discipline that I've seen few actually follow longer than a week or two.

Not sure why someone would be androgen averse unless it was due to not wanting to deal with sides and shutdown, but a few other things could be added to help stay anabolic.

I've regularly recommended Synthetek Syntheselen as a fat-burning & recovery agent and honestly, if taken religiously, the muscle fullness, energy and hardness is much like a mild PH - maybe something like 10mg of Epistane, except with way better stamina and strength than 10mg Epistane. Performance is more like a full blown test cycle, IME.

I would use Glucose Disposal Agents (GDA's) each meal and the Syntheselen pre-WO every day.
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Interesting supplement, but most people aren't fond of injecting at all, let alone 3-5ml a day! :/
 
AdelV said:
Interesting supplement, but most people aren't fond of injecting at all, let alone 3-5ml a day! :/
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Right, this one is reserved for those who
aren't opposed to injecting stuff but are not ready to take serious legal risks. Often times, it would fit into a progression of darkside activity like so:

Step 1 - legal PH's
Step 2 - GH Peptides & SARMs
Step 3 - Syntheselen, L-Carnitine, SEO's, etc (intramuscular)
Step 4 - IM AAS
Step 5 - Insulin/DNP

Obviously, these all sit in different buckets of seriousness for different reasons. Insulin, in my experience, really should be in step 3, since the long term health risks aren't apparent or overwhelming and the short term risks associated with diabetics are very unlikely to happen for normal, healthy people.

DNP is rightly placed but with a level-headed person without any serious pre-existing issues using sensible doses, it's perfectly safe for use.

I could go on but I'll stop with this thought: I've gotten myself into more trouble/danger with seemingly harmless supplements than I have with full blown Class 1 thru 4 controlled substances. Just look up absolute contraindications of St. John's Wort, for instance.
 
Nac said:
Ive seen studies referenced at examine showing a 5% increase in "metabolic rate", not sure where the 60% is being mentioned.

Also seen rat studies where RMR increases 40%, but thats inj and gawd knows how much t3 (I cant be bothered converting).

But, the way I see it the t3 you take on-cycle is to optimise metabolism, or at least that aspect of it. Kinda like taking a trt dose of test when running tren. Any "supraphysiological" increases in metabolic rate are bonus.
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yup.

not sure the math off the top of my head, but it's definitely not 60% in RMR.... and this was with 75 mcg of T3/day, too.

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fueledpassion said:
Yes, T3, like Insulin, is a key hormone that doesn't have a long period of suppression. The studies that I'm referring to were long term studies (several years of use).

The recovery was about the same regardless. It's not like androgens. As far as tapering goes, depends on how clean your diet is. If you aren't eating clean come time to cease T3, might want to taper just to prevent fat gain. You will be vulnerable for a couple of weeks.
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I can't find the link with actual data, but this seems to show that a lot of the permanent suppression fears are overstated:

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CatSnake said:
I can't find the link with actual data, but this seems to show that a lot of the permanent suppression fears are overstated:

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Quite the opposite actually. And as an added bonus on the subject of overstated dangers associated with gear, Insulin use preserves beta cells, prevents them from being overused, rather than posing dangerous risks.

A chick, Type I diabetic pro bodybuilder discusses the importance of insulin use in the GH protocol for non-diabetics on RX Muscle. Really earth-shattering concepts. She's also studying to be a nurse practioner, so you can at least know that she has the right resources and background to be a qualified practitioner given that she is a diabetic and is being expoised to the latest research on the matter.

Anyways, lots of broscience that we have to wade through to reach the dry lands of truth!
 
fueledpassion said:
Quite the opposite actually. And as an added bonus on the subject of overstated dangers associated with gear, Insulin use preserves beta cells, prevents them from being overused, rather than posing dangerous risks.

A chick, Type I diabetic pro bodybuilder discusses the importance of insulin use in the GH protocol for non-diabetics on RX Muscle. Really earth-shattering concepts. She's also a nurse practioner and currently studying to be an endo, so you can at least know that she has the right resources and background to be a qualified practitioner.

Anyways, lots of broscience that we have to wade through to reach the dry lands of truth!
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wouldn't the increase in insulin cause a decrease in insulin sensitivity, tho? or could this simply be mitigated by metformin after you're done cycling the insulin?
 
CatSnake said:
wouldn't the increase in insulin cause a decrease in insulin sensitivity, tho? or could this simply be mitigated by metformin after you're done cycling the insulin?
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No, and this idea is where the bro science starts. It's ok that you thought this and it's a good question.

Insulin resistance occurs thru lack of activity, constant caloric surplus and too many carbs for too long.

The other thing that causes insulin resistance is certain foods. Many foods, like certain saturated fats from dairy products, as well as various thickening agents and preservatives, cause significant insulin resistance over fairly short periods of time. Start with the thickening agent called carageenan, for instance, and see what you find.

A final detriment to insulin sensitivity is GH. GH is the worst of all. This isn't a bad thing that GH does this but I wont go into why it does this right now just that you have to combat it by keeping BG down.

When resistance goes up, insulin is less effective and your BG rises. When the BG rises, the pancreas creates more basal insulin to get it down, and thus you stress your beta cells out. Taking insulin on top of your pancreas' effort will ensure that beta cells are preserved and you avoid the rash of unwanted effects of higher BG and reduced insulin sensitivity.

Check my earlier posts where I gave some citations for further consideration.

Remember this - insulin resistance is from diet and lifestyle choices for the most part and secondarily whether you eat tons of carbs and take GH. Eating tons of carbs your whole life is bad news for your beta cells if you aren't planning to use exogenous insulin to help out.
 
What are your thoughts on MK 677 and insulin. Would Metformin or Berberine assist?

Clear your inbox.
 
justhere4comm said:
What are your thoughts on MK 677 and insulin. Would Metformin or Berberine assist?

Clear your inbox.
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MK may not cause enough fuss to merit Metformin or Berberine. You'd just have to check your BG values fasted and keep an eye on it.

But yes, I would recommend insulin with MK. You wouldn't need Lantus just regular Novolin-R from Wally World.

The main argument for GHRP's (which is what MK is btw) over rHGH is becuase GHRP's don't seem affect BG in a negative way.

That said, I've noticed that MK allows us to use a small dose of rHGH, say 2-4iu per day alongside the MK and get the same GH/IGF output as a much higher dose of GH would allow. Combining them would undoubtedly require Lantus or Berberine at least though.

We don't take insulin as an "anabolic". We take it to reduce beta cell burnout and to keep BG values down and appetite up. It leads to leaner gains in the end.
 
I am thinking of having a 4-5 week break cold turkey off T3 to let thyroid recover before going back on, i have been at 50mcg for entire time which i feel is enough for the effect and have seen no reason to go any higher, what supps can i take to help speed up thyroid recovery, i have been using OL Assass1nate, i also have access to CLEN and ECA and will be using them during this time period to prevent too much rebound, i will also drop all carb refeeds and keep to my PSMF style diet.

If there are any other non stim fat burners e.g. like the Olympus Labs Assass1nate i am using that will aid in restoring thyroid function i will get to aid in this off time period.
 
paul56778 said:
I am thinking of having a 4-5 week break cold turkey off T3 to let thyroid recover before going back on, i have been at 50mcg for entire time which i feel is enough for the effect and have seen no reason to go any higher, what supps can i take to help speed up thyroid recovery, i have been using OL Assass1nate, i also have access to CLEN and ECA and will be using them during this time period to prevent too much rebound, i will also drop all carb refeeds and keep to my PSMF style diet.

If there are any other non stim fat burners e.g. like the Olympus Labs Assass1nate i am using that will aid in restoring thyroid function i will get to aid in this off time period.
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Ive heard/read Forskolin 95 can assist thyroid function, as well as Olive Leaf Extract
 
vujade said:
Ive heard/read Forskolin 95 can assist thyroid function, as well as Olive Leaf Extract
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Are there any other supplements or extracts that could help boost thyroid/metabolism function? I'm reading into thyroid health to help increase metabolism and the only consistant supplement seems to be iodine.
 
subbing for the awesome info in here. keep it coming guys!
 
paul56778 said:
I am thinking of having a 4-5 week break cold turkey off T3 to let thyroid recover before going back on, i have been at 50mcg for entire time which i feel is enough for the effect and have seen no reason to go any higher, what supps can i take to help speed up thyroid recovery, i have been using OL Assass1nate, i also have access to CLEN and ECA and will be using them during this time period to prevent too much rebound, i will also drop all carb refeeds and keep to my PSMF style diet.

If there are any other non stim fat burners e.g. like the Olympus Labs Assass1nate i am using that will aid in restoring thyroid function i will get to aid in this off time period.
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you'd want something like SNS thyrocaps (3,3-diliodo-l-thyronine) to help out with recovery. Pair it with your eca, tta 500, and/or forskolin for a complete package to recover and continue fat loss
 
I have tons of T4 on hand.
Is there a general idea on average of its conversion rate?
I get that t3 is cheap and available
 
Cgkone said:
I'm not being lazy brother, I was honestly wondering.
Most of it converts to T3 is that what I'm suppose to take away from the first post?
Most of it converts seems vague.
So these 100mcg T4 broke into 4ths is a good way to get 25mcg of T3?
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you don't necessarily increase T3 by taking T4.... you can if your body senses that you're low, but otherwise if you're normal your body won't spontaneously increase T3.
 
CatSnake said:
you don't necessarily increase T3 by taking T4.... you can if your body senses that you're low, but otherwise if you're normal your body won't spontaneously increase T3.
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Thanks
I will score some T3
If I take the plunge.
 
As others have said, T4 doesn't always convert to T3 and even if it did, it doesn't mean the desired effect will take place due to reverse T3 activity, which prevents the active T3 from binding and doing its thing.

But generally speaking, a combination of T4/T3 works well for most.
 
here's an oddball question - after doing some reading, it seems that t3 supplementation can cause high estrogen issues... Has anyone experienced this? If so, was there a dose/tipping point for use vs. issues?
 
booneman77 said:
here's an oddball question - after doing some reading, it seems that t3 supplementation can cause high estrogen issues... Has anyone experienced this? If so, was there a dose/tipping point for use vs. issues?
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I have not. I'm aware of T3's relationship w/ prolactin, but higher T3 levels leads to a positive outcome in that regard...

??
 
booneman77 said:
here's an oddball question - after doing some reading, it seems that t3 supplementation can cause high estrogen issues... Has anyone experienced this? If so, was there a dose/tipping point for use vs. issues?
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I have not. I'm aware of T3's relationship w/ prolactin, but higher T3 levels leads to a positive outcome in that regard...

??
 
johnny412 said:
ok lets throw t2 in there...whats the diff?
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T2 doesn't work at all unless you take the equivalent dose to match T3 which is a lot more than dosed on any supplements on the market. You'll still suffer the same side effects offered by T3.

T2 is described as 3,3 or 3,5 (3,5) being the effective one. 3,3 is not.
 
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