BAIBA explained visually

I took 20mg a day of gw for a while last summer. Aside from countering the cardio and lipid sides of tren, it was useless to me for fatloss. I didn't see anything 3xtrodinary from it. I can get it cheap as hell, and I can assure you, it's still not worth it. Baiba is the golden child as far as I'm concerned.
 
henryv said:
PPAR beta/delta isn't just involved in lipid metabolism. It's also involved in things like skin and the immune system (see for example: Invalid Link Removed).
I don't really want to derail the thread though.
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PPAR-alpha (BAIBA) and gamma for that matter are also involved in many other systems.

Ok, I respect your wish not to derail. Sure would be great to hear you opine on this matter though.

Thanks
 
chedapalooza said:
I would personally stay away from GW after all the research I did. I had opportunities to take it for free and didn't..
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Mate of mine just finished 6 weeks, noticed no sides. He also didn't notice much from it at all! Funny enough, he's super fit naturally and claimed he actually struggled cardio wise on it, compared to off it. Hows that? :|
 
AdelV said:
Mate of mine just finished 6 weeks, noticed no sides. He also didn't notice much from it at all! Funny enough, he's super fit naturally and claimed he actually struggled cardio wise on it, compared to off it. Hows that? :|
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Interesting.

What was his diet like at the time (cut/recomp/bulk)?

Thanks man.
 
kboxer7 said:
Interesting.

What was his diet like at the time (cut/recomp/bulk)?

Thanks man.
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No idea, he normally eats below maintenance as he's not a huge eater.

He's taken OSTA RX before, and noticed a huge difference during that.


But he said nothing crazy during MK /GW at all.
 
chedapalooza said:
I noticed no effects on cardio what so ever
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The purported endurance benefits were blown way out of proportion. Isn't a fat loss miracle either.

It's good at fat loss, but like anything it takes months, and its understandable why some decide the risks don't outweigh the benefits.

P.S. I grabbed two tubs of BAIBA to try out : )
 
kboxer7 said:
The purported endurance benefits were blown way out of proportion. Isn't a fat loss miracle either.

It's good at fat loss, but like anything it takes months, and its understandable why some decide the risks don't outweigh the benefits.

P.S. I grabbed two tubs of BAIBA to try out : )
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Risks of BAIBA?
 
chedapalooza said:
Risks of BAIBA?
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Nope, my bad...I was referring to AdelV who was talking about GW.

No "known" risks with BAIBA that I am aware of, but no human studies yet either. With regards to PPAR agonists, most I've seen tend to have some type of negative consequence (the ones that work anyway).

Take the following cases:

a. GW: The whole cancer thing (not interested in debating this, just throwing it out there)
b. TTA: leads to impaired cardiac efficiency in "non-diabetic" subjects

I'm personally choosing to run them all sparingly and will rotate compounds as well. Prob just playing it safe, but that's my choice.

All the best man.
 
henryv said:
I wouldn't expect any problems. If you try it, let us know how you get on.
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What I'll probably do is run one tub solo, then later on run the epiandro together. I've never ran epiandro so I couldn't give you a true review.
 
DWeaver said:
What I'll probably do is run one tub solo, then later on run the epiandro together. I've never ran epiandro so I couldn't give you a true review.
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Great idea. Better to see how it treats you alone so you know what it does.
 
lol.. loved the back story in the beginning!

Do we know how BAIBA attenuates fat storage? Also does it have any effects on lipolysis or oxidation?

Sorry, too lazy/busy to read references
 
JudoJosh said:
lol.. loved the back story in the beginning!

Do we know how BAIBA attenuates fat storage? Also does it have any effects on lipolysis or oxidation?

Sorry, too lazy/busy to read references
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Well now, that's a good question - and it kind of depends on who you ask. Forgive the narrative answer, but I can't think of a better example of how the prevailing winds of scientific thinking affect understanding of a molecule's mechanism(s) of action.

In the first instance, as was described in the 'cartoons' at the start of the thread, BAIBA's potential for influencing weight loss/gain was first discovered as it's a metabolic byproduct of some thymine-based antiretroviral drugs that seemed to increase wasting of HIV/AIDS patients.
Those researchers looked at it through the prevailing weight-management 'lens' of the time, which was leptin. First they found that BAIBA reduced fat gain in Swiss mice - that do not present leptin insufficiency - when fed a regular chow (as well as increasing plasma ketone bodies and stimulating FAO in liver mitochondria). (PMID:15535418)
Then they found that BAIBA was most effective in leptin-deficient (but not knockout) mice, but also "lowered body adiposity by 27% in +/+ (wild-type, i.e. normal) mice fed the same high calorie diet". They point out that BAIBA "can limit body adiposity in the context of adequate leptin expression", that "the beneficial effects of BAIBA on liver could be, at least in part, mediated by increased leptin signalling", and that "some data suggest that BAIBA may have some beneficial effects unrelated to leptin".
Fast forward to 2014 and the Cell article b-Aminoisobutyric Acid Induces Browning of White Fat and Hepatic b-Oxidation and Is Inversely Correlated with Cardiometabolic Risk Factors (PMID: 24411942)and it's explained that BAIBA, as well as being a catabolite of thymine, is a signalling molecule released from muscles by PGC1a-induced (i.e. exercise-induced) breakdown of amino acids (specifically valine). In this study it's observed that:
- BAIBA stimulates the differentiation of white fat cells into thermogenic beige/brite fat cells in both in vivo animal experiments and in vitro human stem cell studies.
- BAIBA is inversely correlated with cardiometabolic risk factors in humans.
- BAIBA increases hepatic b-oxidation in vitro.
And that the effects on adipose tissue are PPARa-mediated.
It's also a partial agonist of the glycine receptor - and just last year the situation became even more confused when BAIBA was identified as an AMPK activator. (PMID: 26105792)

If you decide you do want to do some reading on the subject, there are some good lay articles:
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
and some free-to-access journal articles:
Invalid Link Removed (free pdf)
Invalid Link Removed (free pdf)

In the interests of completeness, a critical but flawed appraisal from suppversity: Invalid Link Removed
In the past couple of weeks ergogenics.org (the original, Dutch version of ergo-log) has written a couple of good articles about BAIBA too:
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
(Unless you speak Dutch you'll need to run them through a translator.)
 
henryv said:
Well now, that's a good question - and it kind of depends on who you ask. Forgive the narrative answer, but I can't think of a better example of how the prevailing winds of scientific thinking affect understanding of a molecule's mechanism(s) of action.

In the first instance, as was described in the 'cartoons' at the start of the thread, BAIBA's potential for influencing weight loss/gain was first discovered as it's a metabolic byproduct of some thymine-based antiretroviral drugs that seemed to increase wasting of HIV/AIDS patients.
Those researchers looked at it through the prevailing weight-management 'lens' of the time, which was leptin. First they found that BAIBA reduced fat gain in Swiss mice - that do not present leptin insufficiency - when fed a regular chow (as well as increasing plasma ketone bodies and stimulating FAO in liver mitochondria). (PMID:15535418)
Then they found that BAIBA was most effective in leptin-deficient (but not knockout) mice, but also "lowered body adiposity by 27% in +/+ (wild-type, i.e. normal) mice fed the same high calorie diet". They point out that BAIBA "can limit body adiposity in the context of adequate leptin expression", that "the beneficial effects of BAIBA on liver could be, at least in part, mediated by increased leptin signalling", and that "some data suggest that BAIBA may have some beneficial effects unrelated to leptin".
Fast forward to 2014 and the Cell article b-Aminoisobutyric Acid Induces Browning of White Fat and Hepatic b-Oxidation and Is Inversely Correlated with Cardiometabolic Risk Factors (PMID: 24411942)and it's explained that BAIBA, as well as being a catabolite of thymine, is a signalling molecule released from muscles by PGC1a-induced (i.e. exercise-induced) breakdown of amino acids (specifically valine). In this study it's observed that:
- BAIBA stimulates the differentiation of white fat cells into thermogenic beige/brite fat cells in both in vivo animal experiments and in vitro human stem cell studies.
- BAIBA is inversely correlated with cardiometabolic risk factors in humans.
- BAIBA increases hepatic b-oxidation in vitro.
And that the effects on adipose tissue are PPARa-mediated.
It's also a partial agonist of the glycine receptor - and just last year the situation became even more confused when BAIBA was identified as an AMPK activator. (PMID: 26105792)

If you decide you do want to do some reading on the subject, there are some good lay articles:
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
and some free-to-access journal articles:
Invalid Link Removed (free pdf)
Invalid Link Removed (free pdf)

In the interests of completeness, a critical but flawed appraisal from suppversity: Invalid Link Removed
In the past couple of weeks ergogenics.org (the original, Dutch version of ergo-log) has written a couple of good articles about BAIBA too:
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
(Unless you speak Dutch you'll need to run them through a translator.)
Click to expand...

Awesome post!!!!! Recently i have heard of people sub-q injecting BAIBA, due to "its poor oral bio-availability", and the few that did all said the result were nothing short of amazing. 1 of them compared it to high dosed amour thyroid(aka desiccated pig thyroid gland. It contains high ratio of t3 to t4 and also contains t2 and t1. Most everyone that uses armour says its better then plain t4 or t3) but without eating away at the muscle.

What do you think of that?
 
rtmilburn said:
Awesome post!!!!! Recently i have heard of people sub-q injecting BAIBA, due to "its poor oral bio-availability", and the few that did all said the result were nothing short of amazing. 1 of them compared it to high dosed amour thyroid(aka desiccated pig thyroid gland. It contains high ratio of t3 to t4 and also contains t2 and t1. Most everyone that uses armour says its better then plain t4 or t3) but without eating away at the muscle.

What do you think of that?
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I would counsel against it in strong terms. There's no evidence that BAIBA has poor oral bioavailability. In every instance of animal research in the literature it has been given orally in drinking water, which is how we recommend βAIBA should be used.
 
henryv said:
I would counsel against it in strong terms. There's no evidence that BAIBA has poor oral bioavailability. In every instance of animal research in the literature it has been given orally in drinking water, which is how we recommend βAIBA should be used.
Click to expand...

That's what i thought as well. Thanks for confirming. Sometimes when i see those type of post, i think they are just posting things to get attention and aren't actually doing what they say they are doing.
 
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