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As you start lifting "Heavy", form goes out the window?

QUADMONSTER

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So Ive been studying and researching and it seems that many guys say that once you get to a certain level where you need to lift heavy weight, its ok to cheat a little bit.

Do you agree with this?

For example, this guy in the following video. He's lifting heavy and is technically cheating. He is not using strict form. More than likely he would not be able to lift as much weight unless he did it this way...........

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Depends on your goals
The heavier you go with low reps then easier to maintain form

Heavier you go with high reps it's easy to lose form
 
It's all relative you try to keep it as straight as you can for as long as you can. It seems like everyone else it's all about safety.
 
Just remember, there is a difference between "form breaking down, or cheating". And "BAD form"! Cheating ok (ish).... Bad form, not so much!
 
Form has to do with the geometry of the human body. What it amounts to is, keeping the various parts of your body in the right positions to provide the correct leverage for your lift, in order to avoid injury. For instance, it's important to keep your lower back flat when you deadlift, because if you round it, it creates a sheer force on your spine. That's a force that operates at 90 degrees to your spine, and since your spine is not built to handle that kind of force, and injury can ensue. Clearly, the heavier the load the more important form becomes. Now, this isn't the relative kind of heavy as in, "heavy for you", this is the absolute kind of heavy as in, this amount of force has the potential to damage a human body. Anybody can muscle their way through a 135 lb squat with whatever kind of form, but no-one can do an 800 lb squat with bad form without getting hurt.

It should be obvious by this point to anyone paying attention, that a) "cheating" is meaningless, and b) there's no such thing as "proper form" for a curl, since it's nearly impossible to hurt yourself by performing a curl incorrectly.

Just my 2 bits. You're welcome to disagree. I'll just be over here, lifting this 500 lb weight (without hurting myself I might add..)
 
Some pretty stupid stuff for a guy trying real hard to sound smart^^

Like I said, you're free to disagree. Sorry if I offended you with "big words". That said, if you think I'm wrong, how about you man up and spell it out instead of just flinging poo?
 
Like I said, you're free to disagree. Sorry if I offended you with "big words". That said, if you think I'm wrong, how about you man up and spell it out instead of just flinging poo?
your attempt at "big words" is not what is offensive, it's the absolute load of BS that you vomit on the page! Ex: 135lbs cannot just be "muscled through" by anyone with any old form. And there is in fact a correct way to curl. It you do not respect the weight, no matter how light, it CAN hurt you. And anyone who says otherwise is an over confident gym bro-wanna be who has no place giving advice. Pull your head out of your a$s, man. Nobody is impressed by what you call easy, even if you can just "be lifting 500lbs and not getting hurt".... Hope that karma doesn't bite ya back!
 
your attempt at "big words" is not what is offensive, it's the absolute load of BS that you vomit on the page! Ex: 135lbs cannot just be "muscled through" by anyone with any old form. And there is in fact a correct way to curl. It you do not respect the weight, no matter how light, it CAN hurt you. And anyone who says otherwise is an over confident gym bro-wanna be who has no place giving advice. Pull your head out of your a$s, man. Nobody is impressed by what you call easy, even if you can just "be lifting 500lbs and not getting hurt".... Hope that karma doesn't bite ya back!

Ok. Anybody can muscle through a 45 lb squat. Better? And you're wrong. A light weight cannot hurt you. How many "shake weight" injuries do you think there are? That's right, none.

Regarding the "correct" way to curl. I recognise that bodybuilders have a different notion of form than weight lifters, however, it has to do with muscle isolation rather than safety, and as such, it's not as important or strict as "proper form". If I do that curl "incorrectly" it's just not as effective as if I do it "correctly", it's not going to result in an injury. It's just not the same thing.

Also, I've been a buddhist practitioner for 10 years. WTF do you think you know about karma? You're the one being a dick. Enjoy the fruits of that buddy.
 
I don't give a Fük what you've been doing with your Buddhist whatever... If these are your real opinions on lifting then there is no talking to you. best of luck, and please don't train anyone!
 
b) there's no such thing as "proper form" for a curl, since it's nearly impossible to hurt yourself by performing a curl incorrectly.

False. I developed bicep tendinitis by curling too much for too long. The heavier I went, the more I started to yank it up rather than contracting the actual bicep muscle. So again, false.
 
Depends on your goals
The heavier you go with low reps then easier to maintain form

Heavier you go with high reps it's easy to lose form

Exactly. Fatigue or weight degrades form if the intention from the outset was to perform properly. It is difficult in the moment to note the difference but you will feel it on some movements.
 
I don't give a Fük what you've been doing with your Buddhist whatever... If these are your real opinions on lifting then there is no talking to you. best of luck, and please don't train anyone!


I don't just train, I compete. So how about you compete against me and stop being a little bitch.

Edit: You're a classic dimwit. I wasn't attempting to train anyone. I was just commenting on the nature of form. You never did say why you thought I was wrong, at least, not in any coherent way. If you think you can outlift me I'll see you at the provincials in Alberta next fall. You'll have to qualify first though. Bring your best lift and be prepared to have your ass handed to you.
 
False. I developed bicep tendinitis by curling too much for too long. The heavier I went, the more I started to yank it up rather than contracting the actual bicep muscle. So again, false.

Tendonitis is a repetitive stress injury, not, strictly speaking, a weightlifting injury. I feel your pain tho. I have tendonitis from 20 years of using a mouse. Can't do curls at all because of it. Sometimes it makes me feel a bit left out.

Edit: The tendonitis you get from curls isn't due to bad form. It's due to the nature of the lift. Having the elbow as a fixed point with the arm extended generates a ton of force on the elbow. Honestly I don't know how anyone can do them without getting hurt. Some people have really strong tendons I guess. Personally I prefer rows, where the elbow is free to move and you avoid that problem, and you can move a lot more weight. My 2 bits. Been saying this for a while.
 
I don't just train, I compete. So how about you compete against me and stop being a little bitch. Edit: You're a classic dimwit. I wasn't attempting to train anyone. I was just commenting on the nature of form. You never did say why you thought I was wrong, at least, not in any coherent way. If you think you can outlift me I'll see you at the provincials in Alberta next fall. You'll have to qualify first though. Bring your best lift and be prepared to have your ass handed to you.
you must be kidding me! My basic argument is simply that you are wrong. The fact you believe that one cannot get injured by low weight, or improper form using said weight is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. That is simply the only argument I need, especially when your counter point was the "shake weight". And yeah, lemme drive myself to bumfûk Alberta to compete against you... Sounds about as smart as the rest of your moronic rant. I'm done with you.
 
C'mon...there's clearly proper form for a curl as there is with every exercise and light, which is relative, weights can cause injury. I train with a guy who completely ripped off his biceps at the insertion (that's rare as is) from moving a tire. Not a tractor tire from doing flips...a tire to an F150.
 
I hate when these threads turn to arguments
But I slightly injured my shoulder before my last bench session movie a 50lbs bar from one bench to another
I was a sad panda
 
I hate when these threads turn to arguments But I slightly injured my shoulder before my last bench session movie a 50lbs bar from one bench to another I was a sad panda

Exactly. Goofy **** happens sometimes without any rhyme or reason. Hell, I haven't been able to bench most of this year because of an injury from doing floor press with ~60% of my 1RM.
 
Exactly. Goofy **** happens sometimes without any rhyme or reason. Hell, I haven't been able to bench most of this year because of an injury from doing floor press with ~60% of my 1RM.
I squat a rep PR the other day with no issues, but picked my 14lb kid up out of her swing and almost threw my back out. Perhaps I should have curled her up since there is no form required for that.....
 
I don't just train, I compete. So how about you compete against me and stop being a little bitch.

Edit: You're a classic dimwit. I wasn't attempting to train anyone. I was just commenting on the nature of form. You never did say why you thought I was wrong, at least, not in any coherent way. If you think you can outlift me I'll see you at the provincials in Alberta next fall. You'll have to qualify first though. Bring your best lift and be prepared to have your ass handed to you.



***PSA*** Not all Albertans believe the same as the above individual. Thank you for listening.
 
Well, it is Alberta. We basically have ego driven rig pigs and tobacco chewing rednecks here. Not the smartest neanderthals kicking around.

Don't forget mountaineers. If you think I'm intimidated by, well, anyone, think again. You don't want to be like me, well, don't worry, you won't. P.S. I'm also an alumni of the University of Alberta. That's where all the smart neatherthals go to get trained up in science and all that other neanderthal nonsense. Maybe you've heard of it.

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C'mon...there's clearly proper form for a curl as there is with every exercise and light, which is relative, weights can cause injury. I train with a guy who completely ripped off his biceps at the insertion (that's rare as is) from moving a tire. Not a tractor tire from doing flips...a tire to an F150.

Yeah, ok. This kind of response I can deal with. That other guy was calling me out, and, I don't give a damn if he's 15 years younger, I'm not so old that I'm going to take that. If someone wants to be civil and disagree, that's great. I can take being wrong. I won't take being called ridiculous names though, and I doubt you would either.
 
Yeah, ok. This kind of response I can deal with. That other guy was calling me out, and, I don't give a damn if he's 15 years younger, I'm not so old that I'm going to take that. If someone wants to be civil and disagree, that's great. I can take being wrong. I won't take being called ridiculous names though, and I doubt you would either.
You went on a diatribe with some horrible information. You can get hurt with light weights and there is a proper form to everything. I'll leave it at that.
 
Yeah, ok. This kind of response I can deal with. That other guy was calling me out, and, I don't give a damn if he's 15 years younger, I'm not so old that I'm going to take that. If someone wants to be civil and disagree, that's great. I can take being wrong. I won't take being called ridiculous names though, and I doubt you would either.
it pisses me off when guys who obviously aren't very educated on a subject spout BS like you did! The fact that you can honestly speak in "impossibilities and absolutes" when it comes to not injuring yourself with light weight and bad form is the most jackazz sounding thing I have literally EVER heard!! I'm sorry if me calling you out hurt your delicate ego, but tough crap!!! You seem like you may be a strong dude, which makes it worse, because there is possibly some rookie out there who listens to you, and will get hurt because of it.
 
it pisses me off when guys who obviously aren't very educated on a subject spout BS like you did! The fact that you can honestly speak in "impossibilities and absolutes" when it comes to not injuring yourself with light weight and bad form is the most jackazz sounding thing I have literally EVER heard!! I'm sorry if me calling you out hurt your delicate ego, but tough crap!!! You seem like you may be a strong dude, which makes it worse, because there is possibly some rookie out there who listens to you, and will get hurt because of it.

Ok., I will spell it out for you a bit more plainly. My point is that form is self correcting. Lifters learn form by first being told something, or reading something, or watching someone do something, whatever the case may be, form starts as an idea.

So everyone, or nearly everyone, has bad form when they start lifting, because form at that point is just an idea for them, they don't really know how to do it. So why doesn't everyone get hurt the first time they try lifting weights? Because they are usually using light weights. They can get hurt if they attempt to use weights that are too heavy. I did the first time I tried deadlifts. However, provided they don't make that mistake, they generally won't get hurt, bad form notwithstanding.

So how do we learn proper form then? By adding weight to the bar, and learning the parameters of the body and the physics of moving the weight, and trying out the ideas we have about it, and learning how they apply. Once we do that, the idea of form becomes a practice, and the initial instruction becomes a cue. I think lifters will generally push the envelope a little with regards to how much weight they can actually handle, but again, injury is not usually a direct result of lifting. Most people will stay within their limits and only lift what they can handle.

As strength increases though, we have to learn more about how to handle the weight. If we have incorrect form it stands out more as we try to lift heavier, and we have to correct it, to the point where people are eventually lifting truly heavy loads. At that point form is critical, but it's also ingrained.

Now, I'm not trying to train anyone. I was just making a comment about the nature of form, in that it goes hand in hand with strength, and that it's acquired by the individual lifter in the same way strength is, by direct experience and work. Coaches can help for sure, but even the best advice has to be put into practice and learned first hand.

For the life of me I cannot understand what you think is wrong about any of that, or how it could result in anyone getting hurt. You still haven't said so, all you've done is give me a hard time, which I do not appreciate, even a little. You getting pissed off is your prerogative, but you giving me noise about is making it my problem, and I have a temper too.
 
Ok., I will spell it out for you a bit more plainly. My point is that form is self correcting. Lifters learn form by first being told something, or reading something, or watching someone do something, whatever the case may be, form starts as an idea. So everyone, or nearly everyone, has bad form when they start lifting, because form at that point is just an idea for them, they don't really know how to do it. So why doesn't everyone get hurt the first time they try lifting weights? Because they are usually using light weights. They can get hurt if they attempt to use weights that are too heavy. I did the first time I tried deadlifts. However, provided they don't make that mistake, they generally won't get hurt, bad form notwithstanding. So how do we learn proper form then? By adding weight to the bar, and learning the parameters of the body and the physics of moving the weight, and trying out the ideas we have about it, and learning how they apply. Once we do that, the idea of form becomes a practice, and the initial instruction becomes a cue. I think lifters will generally push the envelope a little with regards to how much weight they can actually handle, but again, injury is not usually a direct result of lifting. Most people will stay within their limits and only lift what they can handle. As strength increases though, we have to learn more about how to handle the weight. If we have incorrect form it stands out more as we try to lift heavier, and we have to correct it, to the point where people are eventually lifting truly heavy loads. At that point form is critical, but it's also ingrained. Now, I'm not trying to train anyone. I was just making a comment about the nature of form, in that it goes hand in hand with strength, and that it's acquired by the individual lifter in the same way strength is, by direct experience and work. Coaches can help for sure, but even the best advice has to be put into practice and learned first hand. For the life of me I cannot understand what you think is wrong about any of that, or how it could result in anyone getting hurt. You still haven't said so, all you've done is give me a hard time, which I do not appreciate, even a little. You getting pissed off is your prerogative, but you giving me noise about is making it my problem, and I have a temper too.

Form is far from self correcting. If it was, people wouldn't need coaches or cues. Weight is not the way to learn form and is actually the variable that messes people up. Lifting and maintaining tightness is easy at 70%, but not nearly as easy >90%. Technical failure and muscular failure are also different, which is something ignored by the less educated and experienced. I hope you're not trying to train anyone as you have demonstrated some gross misunderstandings regarding technique and the nature of learning.
 
i always start with the first 3 sets with a weight that i can handle with strict form, and then the last two sets, i usually do a bit of a little heavier weight and i tend to "cheat" a little in my movements. but i find that at this point my body is warmed and pumped up and is less prone to injuries.
 
For instance, it's important to keep your lower back flat when you deadlift, because if you round it, it creates a sheer force on your spine.
you started off that sentence good then sh!t yourself at the end. rounding does not mean shearing. shearing happens with a flat or rounded back. the next part you get right as well.

Now, this isn't the relative kind of heavy as in, "heavy for you", this is the absolute kind of heavy as in, this amount of force has the potential to damage a human body. Anybody can muscle their way through a 135 lb squat with whatever kind of form, but no-one can do an 800 lb squat with bad form without getting hurt.
not as bad as above but still not accurate. now don't be foolish and think i am saying the opposite. what i am saying is that 135 can hurt you. if you can do an 800lbs squat your body will be hard pressed to even get in a damaging position even if your spine is not in the perfect position. spinal biomechanists have proven that it is the end of ROM of the spine that is where an injury is likely going to occur.

It should be obvious by this point to anyone paying attention, that a) "cheating" is meaningless, and b) there's no such thing as "proper form" for a curl, since it's nearly impossible to hurt yourself by performing a curl incorrectly.
there is proper form for a curl. there are lifting federations that have the curl as an event, therefore there is a proper form. if you do NOT do the curl in competition the proper form becomes what is needed to reach your goals. without knowing the goals it is hard to saw what is proper per individual.


Just my 2 bits. You're welcome to disagree. I'll just be over here, lifting this 500 lb weight (without hurting myself I might add..)
500lbs what? sure in a commercial that is impressive. in other gyms that is nothing special. the main gym i train at i have the weakest deadlift of everyone with a measly 525. so what's your point?
 
you started off that sentence good then sh!t yourself at the end. rounding does not mean shearing. shearing happens with a flat or rounded back. the next part you get right as well.


not as bad as above but still not accurate. now don't be foolish and think i am saying the opposite. what i am saying is that 135 can hurt you. if you can do an 800lbs squat your body will be hard pressed to even get in a damaging position even if your spine is not in the perfect position. spinal biomechanists have proven that it is the end of ROM of the spine that is where an injury is likely going to occur.


there is proper form for a curl. there are lifting federations that have the curl as an event, therefore there is a proper form. if you do NOT do the curl in competition the proper form becomes what is needed to reach your goals. without knowing the goals it is hard to saw what is proper per individual.


500lbs what? sure in a commercial that is impressive. in other gyms that is nothing special. the main gym i train at i have the weakest deadlift of everyone with a measly 525. so what's your point?

Thanks for reviewing my post. You're right I was being a bit sloppy. The reason I made the post in the first place was because this is a topic I'd been thinking about and talking over with a few people over the previous week or so. So I was attempting to get it sorted out in my own head, and this was kind of a first pass, and admittedly not very good. I think I did get it sorted pretty well eventually, but I'm not sure it was worth the effort.

Oddly, I just learned this morning that a curl is a competition lift in some federations. I was actually just slagging a bit there, which I shouldn't have done. Good on you for having a 525 deadlift though! I get that in a rack pull but my best pull off the floor is a paltry 450.
 
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