Arginine - Better Pumps and Increased Vascularity?

[sparks2012]

Looking for some input on supplementing with arginine. Good, bad, and indifferent opinions welcome. Looking to see if it's worth adding to my stack.

 

[Parad0x]

Pure L-Citrulline works wonders for me. 6g of that and it's f*cking intense. G for G, I want to say citrulline is better.

 

[LeanEngineer]

L-Citrulline, agamatine sulfate, and some noxygen gets me pumped and veins!

 

[TheMovement]

Isn't Arginine supplementation experiences the ? Here? Or am I missing something?

 

[sparks2012]

Isn't Arginine supplementation experiences the ? Here? Or am I missing something?

Lol, yes you are right, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Reason I asked about arginine specifically was because I met someone recently who competes in shows and swears by it, but I figured I'd ask for opinions of the masses on here. I'm open to different combos that work from people's past experiences though.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Arginine is a complete scam.

Nitrates
Agmatine
Citrulline
GMS/Hydromax


That's all you should worry about for pumps and vascularity

 

[sparks2012]

Parad0x LeanEngineer

Thanks for the input! What're your dosages for L-Citrulline, Agmatine Sulfate, and Noxygen?

 

[sparks2012]

Arginine is a complete scam.

Nitrates
Agmatine
Citrulline
GMS/Hydromax


That's all you should worry about for pumps and vascularity

Thanks man, always dropping some knowledge!

 

[spearfisher]

It maybe a scam but Ive used NOW Arginine Orthinine stack and I get great pumps out of it. Maybe its not REALLY what it says it is? No idea but Ive used it for years and had really good pumps from it. Cheap too. Gotta love that. As for the rest that was suggested never took any of it except for NO that is mixed with my prework out.

 

[StanleyG]

Well Vaughn definitely knows scams very well.
Id go with Agmatine over argenine based on what you indicated you desired. I used to use Arginine and the company whose I was using stopped selling it and replaced it with Agmatine, I was disappointed at first having used arginine for a few years now but based on their suggestion I gave the Agmatine a try. I will never look back man. Agmatine is superior IMO.

 

[kisaj]

Agmatine and L-citrulline all day over arginine.

 

[chemjr]

Arginine is a complete scam.

Nitrates
Agmatine
Citrulline
GMS/Hydromax


That's all you should worry about for pumps and vascularity

I have to Strongly disagree. There are definitely Other ways to vasodiolate, but arginine is no scam. If you take 3g of arginine and tell me you get no pump I think that's bull. Now could you add some citrulline and get a better pump? Norvaline? Yes! But arginine is CHEAP and it DOES work. So w money in mind, a 7$ bottle of 100 pills of 1g arginine from pure formulas, that's cheap as hell, and could be added to a supplement w citrulline and Norvaline and aakg, then you'd have one hell of a pump. But there is Many MEDICAL articles siting the vasodilation properties of arginine. Arginine.com actually has a good product. Overpriced imo, but it's just arginine and citrulline and works. Just like plain ass arginine tabs. And this is with 16yrs of use talking here. But maybe those big veins is just placebo Not trying to start ****, just strongly disagree. Hope this helps a bit. Start w now food arg/orn mix or piping rock tri-amino and see how that treats ya. Not the best, but cheap and a place to start. Best of luck.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

I have to Strongly disagree. There are definitely Other ways to vasodiolate, but arginine is no scam. If you take 3g of arginine and tell me you get no pump I think that's bull. Now could you add some citrulline and get a better pump? Norvaline? Yes! But arginine is CHEAP and it DOES work. So w money in mind, a 7$ bottle of 100 pills of 1g arginine from pure formulas, that's cheap as hell, and could be added to a supplement w citrulline and Norvaline and aakg, then you'd have one hell of a pump. But there is Many MEDICAL articles siting the vasodilation properties of arginine. Arginine.com actually has a good product. Overpriced imo, but it's just arginine and citrulline and works. Just like plain ass arginine tabs. And this is with 16yrs of use talking here. But maybe those big veins is just placebo Not trying to start ****, just strongly disagree. Hope this helps a bit. Start w now food arg/orn mix or piping rock tri-amino and see how that treats ya. Not the best, but cheap and a place to start. Best of luck.

You realise that supplementing citrulline reliably increases arginine levels better than arginine?

 

[VaughnTrue]

I have to Strongly disagree. There are definitely Other ways to vasodiolate, but arginine is no scam. If you take 3g of arginine and tell me you get no pump I think that's bull. Now could you add some citrulline and get a better pump? Norvaline? Yes! But arginine is CHEAP and it DOES work. So w money in mind, a 7$ bottle of 100 pills of 1g arginine from pure formulas, that's cheap as hell, and could be added to a supplement w citrulline and Norvaline and aakg, then you'd have one hell of a pump. But there is Many MEDICAL articles siting the vasodilation properties of arginine. Arginine.com actually has a good product. Overpriced imo, but it's just arginine and citrulline and works. Just like plain ass arginine tabs. And this is with 16yrs of use talking here. But maybe those big veins is just placebo Not trying to start ****, just strongly disagree. Hope this helps a bit. Start w now food arg/orn mix or piping rock tri-amino and see how that treats ya. Not the best, but cheap and a place to start. Best of luck.

As always, my response to this is to please post any studies showing NO enhancement in healthy adults with arginine via acute dosing.


I am not doing this to start **** either, just looking for someone to finally prove me wrong when asking for this.

 

[muchstronger2]

I have to Strongly disagree. There are definitely Other ways to vasodiolate, but arginine is no scam. If you take 3g of arginine and tell me you get no pump I think that's bull. Now could you add some citrulline and get a better pump? Norvaline? Yes! But arginine is CHEAP and it DOES work. So w money in mind, a 7$ bottle of 100 pills of 1g arginine from pure formulas, that's cheap as hell, and could be added to a supplement w citrulline and Norvaline and aakg, then you'd have one hell of a pump. But there is Many MEDICAL articles siting the vasodilation properties of arginine. Arginine.com actually has a good product. Overpriced imo, but it's just arginine and citrulline and works. Just like plain ass arginine tabs. And this is with 16yrs of use talking here. But maybe those big veins is just placebo Not trying to start ****, just strongly disagree. Hope this helps a bit. Start w now food arg/orn mix or piping rock tri-amino and see how that treats ya. Not the best, but cheap and a place to start. Best of luck.

"NO plays an important role in many functions in the body regulating vasodilatation, blood flow, mitochondrial respiration and platelet function. L-Arginine is the main precursor of NO via nitric oxide synthase (NOS) activity. Additionally, L-citrulline has been indicated to be a second NO donor in the NOS-dependent pathway, since it can be converted to L-arginine. The importance of L-citrulline as an ergogenic support derives from the fact that L-citrulline is not subject to pre-systemic elimination and, consequently, could be a more efficient way to elevate extracellular levels of L-arginine by itself."


Sureda A, et al. Med Sport Sci. 2012.

 

[chemjr]

You realise that supplementing citrulline reliably increases arginine levels better than arginine?

Of course. Just saying it's not a total sham.

 

[chemjr]

"NO plays an important role in many functions in the body regulating vasodilatation, blood flow, mitochondrial respiration and platelet function. L-Arginine is the main precursor of NO via nitric oxide synthase (NOS) activity. Additionally, L-citrulline has been indicated to be a second NO donor in the NOS-dependent pathway, since it can be converted to L-arginine. The importance of L-citrulline as an ergogenic support derives from the fact that L-citrulline is not subject to pre-systemic elimination and, consequently, could be a more efficient way to elevate extracellular levels of L-arginine by itself."


Sureda A, et al. Med Sport Sci. 2012.

Very good siting. And I agree 100%. But it also states arginine is the Main Precursor- therefore not a total waste.
And I'm sure I could find some articles siting it's importance alone. All I was saying is that it's not garbage or a waste. Just one man's way, and if he's just starting out, it's a nice CHEAP way to experiment.
Cmon guys, wasn't trying to start a battle of the brains here. I know the importance of all the compounds you listed and agree they work. But saying arginine is total waste- can't remember verbatim what you said- I felt was a bit strong, and there is plenty of eveidence, like what you just sited, that says it does indeed work.
Can you find other compounds to make more efficient use of arginine and break down no synthase? Yes, of course. But do most of these no products include a certain amount of arginine, in one form or another? Yes. And for good reason. It is after all the Main precursor. Your body will break it down, will it not?

And after all, I was answering the initial question. Not starting crap w anyone.

 

[Jiigzz]

Very good siting. And I agree 100%. But it also states arginine is the Main Precursor- therefore not a total waste.
And I'm sure I could find some articles siting it's importance alone. All I was saying is that it's not garbage or a waste. Just one man's way, and if he's just starting out, it's a nice CHEAP way to experiment.
Cmon guys, wasn't trying to start a battle of the brains here. I know the importance of all the compounds you listed and agree they work. But saying arginine is total waste- can't remember verbatim what you said- I felt was a bit strong, and there is plenty of eveidence, like what you just sited, that says it does indeed work.
Can you find other compounds to make more efficient use of arginine and break down no synthase? Yes, of course. But do most of these no products include a certain amount of arginine, in one form or another? Yes. And for good reason. It is after all the Main precursor. Your body will break it down, will it not?

And after all, I was answering the initial question. Not starting crap w anyone.

Arginine created within the body does this, yes, but you guys are discussing whether additional supplementation realiably increasing NO in healthy humans which is an important difference.

Meh, I dont care for it but I do enjoy citrulline

 

[Drivenbyneed]

What's your personal recommended dosages for citrulline? And when?

 

[Rob1882]

Arginine is a complete scam.

Nitrates
Agmatine
Citrulline
GMS/Hydromax


That's all you should worry about for pumps and vascularity

Agreed


Nitrates, GMS & Carbs are king for me

 

[VaughnTrue]

What's your personal recommended dosages for citrulline? And when?

Citrulline = 4-6g 30 mins pre exercise

Cit Malate = 6-8g 30 mins pre exercise

 

[VaughnTrue]

here is but one of many many many examples of why I am calling arginine a scam


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489573/

Dietary supplements containing L-arginine have been marketed with the purpose of increasing vasodilatation, and thus, blood and oxygen supply to the exercising muscle. The present study evaluated the acute effect of L-arginine supplementation on indicators of NO production, nitrite (NO2-) + nitrate (NO3-) (NOx), in healthy subjects. Plasma concentrations of asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA) and symmetric dimethylarginine (SDMA) have also been addressed. Seventeen healthy males participated in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Blood samples were drawn from a left antecubital vein at baseline (T0). Afterwards, subjects were randomly submittedto 6 g of oral L-arginine supplementation (as L-arginine hydrochloride) or placebo (as corn starch); afterwards, the subjects remained at rest in supine position and blood samples were drawn again at 30 (T1), 60 (T2), 90 (T3) and 120 minutes (T4) after supplementation. To analyze NO production, NO3- was converted to NO2- by nitrate reductase, followed by the derivatization of NO2- with 2,3-diaminonaphthalene. NOx, ADMA and SDMA were analyzed using a high-performance liquid chromatography system and monitored with a fluorescence detector. Two-way ANOVA with repeated measures showed no significant changes in NOx concentrations on the L-arginine group as compared to placebo group at any of the fivetime points (T0: 17.6 ± 3.9 vs 14.6 ± 2.3 μmol/L; T1: 15.8 ± 2.4 vs 14.3 ± 1.7 μmol/L; T2: 16.8 ± 4.9 vs 13.7 ± 2.7 μmol/L; T3: 16.7 ± 3.9 vs 14.6 ± 2.1 μmol/L; T4: 15.1 ± 2.8 vs 13.5 ± 3.5 μmol/L). Furthermore, plasma levels of ADMA and SDMA were not statistically significant between the L-arginine and placebo groups at T0 (0.43 ± 0.19 vs 0.39 ± 0.15 μmol/L and 1.83 ± 1.13 vs 1.70 ± 0.62 μmol/L), respectively. In conclusion, acute L-arginine supplementation does not increase plasma concentration of NOx in healthy individuals with normal plasma concentrations of ADMA.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

here is but one of many many many examples of why I am calling arginine a scam


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489573/

I agree. Citrulline >>>>> Arginine

Arginine is also more likely to cause diarrhea than citrulline, and citrulline has much more promising and consistent research than arginine in healthy individuals (especially athletes). I see no reason to take arginine over citrulline, and I see no reason to take arginine when you're already taking citrulline. Citrulline isn't that expensive either; you can find l-citrulline powder for less than a quarter per 4g if you know where to look. No reason to opt for arginine instead. If you want additional pumps, go for agmatine, nitrates, glycerol, and/or taurine.

 

[VaughnTrue]

guys, keep in mind here I rally against arginine despite it being present in quite a few products that my company(ies) sell. Thankfully we have other great NO inducing ingredients in the formulas like citrulline and nitrates, however I am not a fan of arginine at ALL. This is why arginine is not found in a single IFN sku,

 

[sparks2012]

A lot of science in here, come to find out I don't know as much as I thought I did about supps, not even mentioning PH/SARM's/AAS'. I appreciate all the feedback from the knowledgeable individuals in this community.

 

[VaughnTrue]

A lot of science in here, come to find out I don't know as much as I thought I did about supps, not even mentioning PH/SARM's/AAS'. I appreciate all the feedback from the knowledgeable individuals in this community.

sifting through the nonsense isn't easy for ANYONE.


almost every study that supp companies quote in regards to arginine are ones that include subjects that are not "healthy" in that they have nitric oxide deficiencies/or other major issues with their body chemistry that causes them to react very differently to the compound than a healthy guy looking to get bigger pumps.

 

[sparks2012]

sifting through the nonsense isn't easy for ANYONE.


almost every study that supp companies quote in regards to arginine are ones that include subjects that are not "healthy" in that they have nitric oxide deficiencies/or other major issues with their body chemistry that causes them to react very differently to the compound than a healthy guy looking to get bigger pumps.

I figured the numbers on most studies were a little tweaked. Except for Celltech, I gained 10lbs of muscle with 1 tub (not srs). But again, thanks for the solid info.

 

[Drivenbyneed]

Citrulline = 4-6g 30 mins pre exercise

Cit Malate = 6-8g 30 mins pre exercise

None on rest days?

 

[VaughnTrue]

None on rest days?

no, no need in my opinion. You can if you want, but I don't see a direct benefit really

 

[HIT4ME]

Arginine a scam? Depends on the promise. A couple grams before bed may have benefits. For working out, as Vaugh and others have said, Citrulline and Agmatine should be higher than arginine on your list.

I saw Ornithine mentioned in a NOW argini e/Ornithine combo. It should be noted that Ornithine has some Arginase inhibiting properties itself, so that may allow the arginine in your system to work longer even if the arginine you took I'm the supplements doesn't increase your arginine levels.

Agmatine is an awesome, well researched product. Good for lots, and I would place it above Citrulline in general, but for straight pumps...experiment and see what you like.

 

[kisaj]

no, no need in my opinion. You can if you want, but I don't see a direct benefit really

If you are using it for BP, it is beneficial everyday. Also, it is nice to open a door handle and see your forearms exploding.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Parad0x LeanEngineer

Thanks for the input! What're your dosages for L-Citrulline, Agmatine Sulfate, and Noxygen?

I'll do 6g L-Citrulline 1-2g agmatine and 1 serving noxygen.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I'll do 6g L-Citrulline 1-2g agmatine and 1 serving noxygen.

6g L-cit or 6g l-cit malate?

 

[Pec.Major]

What about L-Ornithine HCL? Does it have any effect on pump and vascularity?

 

[georgetown]

GMS dosing?

 

[georgetown]

Would a stack of l-citrulline, agmatine, gms, and na-r-ala help keep you fuller all day or only while working out?

 

[kbayne]

What about L-Ornithine HCL? Does it have any effect on pump and vascularity?

Stick with L-Citrulline.

GMS dosing?

3-6 grams

Would a stack of l-citrulline, agmatine, gms, and na-r-ala help keep you fuller all day or only while working out?

Keep Na-R-ALA away from peri-workout.

L-Citrulline, Agmatine, and GMS can help with muscle fullness during the workout. Agmatine + carbs during the day would help assist in more glycogen (muscle fullness) retention throughout the day

 

[Ape McGrapes]

What about pine bark and l-citrulline?

 

[muchstronger2]

Keep it simple guys:

-citrulline
-agmatine
-nitrates

You're in for one wild pump.
Save your money

 

[georgetown]

Keep it simple guys:

-citrulline
-agmatine
-nitrates

You're in for one wild pump.
Save your money

Bulk supplements good for citrulline and agmatine? Whats a good source for nitrates?

 

[VaughnTrue]

Bulk supplements good for citrulline and agmatine? Whats a good source for nitrates?

IForce offers bulk potassium nitrate pills

 

[Chefdeez]

Keep it simple guys:

-citrulline
-agmatine
-nitrates

You're in for one wild pump.
Save your money

Just get USPLabs Max Reps and add agmatine if needed. Honestly it's not. This stuff is the bees knees and a very simple formula.

 

[HellAtlantic]

So is there a good bulk citruline I can pick up or is there no diff cuz it's all the same?

 

[kisaj]

IForce offers bulk potassium nitrate pills

Is that the NO3 or something else? Interested.

 

[kisaj]

So is there a good bulk citruline I can pick up or is there no diff cuz it's all the same?

No difference in any of the brands I have used.

 

[georgetown]

No difference in any of the brands I have used.

Have you used bulk supplements?

 

[VaughnTrue]

Is that the NO3 or something else? Interested.

potassium nitrate = KNO3

 

[kisaj]

Have you used bulk supplements?

Yes, quality stuff.

 

[kisaj]

potassium nitrate = KNO3

Right, I just didn't know if you were referring to another product since you mentioned having it in bulk.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Right, I just didn't know if you were referring to another product since you mentioned having it in bulk.

Oh sorry, just meant that it's simply potassium nitrate + Vit c, and not a full formula like our other products