Are you willing to trade monotony in eating for a great body?

[Dwight Schrute]

There are many things to take into acocunt that can only be found if I actually sit down and talk with you. That is what my clients pay me to do (NO I'M NOT PIMPING!!!! )

But no I would not breakdown your diet in that fashion. It would revolve around many different factors as those who train under me now can attest to. There is a method to my madness (aren't all trainers mad?) but you would get the protein you need at the right times.

 

[iron addict]

Bobo,

So.....your saying that this morning when I had a 75 gram whey shake, a bowl of oatmeal with milk, and a tablespoon of flax, it was digested at the same pace as if I had just had the 75 gram protein shake by itself. Interesting....

If anyone wants to take the "shake test" to see if consuming oils (EFA's) with your shake does or does not slow down the digestion you may try this simple little test. And I realize it's not the same as having a blood workup done in a lab. But I think it will satisfy most peoples curiosity.

Have a 75 gram shake. after 30 min, 1 hr, 1.5, and 2 hrs "shake" your midsection, and just try and guage how well emptied your stomach is by that and the usual criteria you use to subjectively determine if the prior meal/feeding is "processed". Most people will be able to tell when the stomach is emptied, and how well the contents are digesting.

Now have the shake and add 2 tablespoons of olive oil or flax oil and repeat the "shake test".

Which one digests faster? I have had many, many trainees have to reduce, or in some cases eliminate the oil because it left them full for such an amount of time that they couldn't comfortably get in their daily protein quota.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

IA, digestion and absortion of amino's is not done in the stomach, it is done in the small intestine.

That is the first time I've ever heard of a "shake" test to determine the digetion of nutrients into the bloodstream.

In fact, your oatmeal is causing more of a delay than the added oil because of the increase in fiber. Does it delay it to the point that 75g of whey can be digested as it was meant to be (for amino's) ? Hardly.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo,

So.....your saying that this morning when I had a 75 gram whey shake, a bowl of oatmeal with milk, and a tablespoon of flax, it was digested at the same pace as if I had just had the 75 gram protein shake by itself. Interesting....

So your telling me that a simple tablespoon of flax makes them full and that removing that lets them digest better? Its the oatmeal IA. Its fiber. THats why its so good but it still doesn't stop the gatric emptying of liquified foods.

 

[jminis]

Bobo you recommend adding the whey to skim milk and I understand why, my question is do you still mix it with the milk in your PostWorkout shake and also do you still mix it with milk when your cutting?

Most of the articles I've read are back and forth on the milk (calcium) issue. One say's the calcium is beneficial for fat burning and the others say that dairy settles in the lower abdominal region (which I think is is just to much of a blanket statement). What are you thoughts? I understand both sides have agenda's and unfortunately it's not us.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Yes and yes.


If you drink a ton of skim milk at one sitting you could have problems because the body only has a certain amount of lactase it can use at one time, so you could get some bloating and gas due to the fact the bonds are not being broken down fast enough.

 

[DougMan]

Bobo, I know you have a knack for finding medical studies, do you know of any that would support your ideas on the inability of whole foods to slow down the absorption of protein. Or even a study dealing with protein absorption rates in general. If you could tell me the search engine that you would use for this type of search I can do it myself. Thanks

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Its not the inability of whole foods to slow digestion down, its some whole foods. As in IA's case above, the oatmeal is much more a factor than fats. Its simple common sense that a liquified form of food will be emptied before a large meal. Liquids always empty before whole foods. Its takes time for the stomach do break down those whole foods so in he meantime it is still delivering nutrients in the form of liquids to the body. Once there, then you have the breakdown of aminos for transport and if this influx is too great, you will have problems. Just because you add in whole foods doens't mean the body just halts everything or slows everything down to the point you are going to alter the nature of the food in question (this time whey). The properties of whey being a fast absorbing protein are still present. That doens't change.


I could try to find some studies a little later if I have more time to kill but most of this stuff is taught in college level nutrition classes. Its just basic physiology.

 

[jminis]

Yes and yes.


If you drink a ton of skim milk at one sitting you could have problems because the body only has a certain amount of lactase it can use at one time, so you could get some bloating and gas due to the fact the bonds are not being broken down fast enough.

You mean the type of gas that you get after slamming down a Pat's Cheesesteak smothered in Cheese Whiz

 

[Dwight Schrute]

No, thats just your system in pure denial. Oh I miss those...

What I would do to be 21 again and have a fast metabolism

 

[jminis]

Send me your addy and I'll send you one out priority with a tracking number lol

 

[lifted]

What about egg white protein powder which I use all the time now...

Would that be considered better than large amounts of whey when comparing the two to whole foods??

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Whole foods are still better but as far as powders are concerned and using them during normal feeding times, yes egg powder is much better. You can certanly use Whey during normal times but limit it to one scoop and try to get the rest from multiple sources.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Send me your addy and I'll send you one out priority with a tracking number lol

Oh boy......I can't even imagin what that would look like once it got here. Talk about roadkill....

 

[Cardinal]

From my past experience, I can't say that using a large amount of wpc80 over whole food sources has in any way hindered my progress. I also have IBS and have found it significantly easier on my stomach/intestines to digest whey shakes. Some people get bloated and have severe distress from protein shakes/dairy and I am definitely the opposite.

I took a suggestion from Lyle a while back and started adding a significant amount of pure psyllium mucilloid to my protein shakes to slow the digestion appropriately. Seems to work fabulously and more importantly it leaves me feeling sated far longer than any source of whole food protein I have used (of course due to the soluble fiber and high water content).

Economically I can get 100g WPC80 for roughly .9$
It costs me 1.32 to get 100g protein from tuna as my cheapest bet.
Chicken is at least double the cost of whey even when buying it in bulk. All other sources of protein seem to go up in price from there.

Poor or not, the monetary difference over time is rather staggering imo. Sources of fat/cho can of course be obtained for pennies basically, making for a cheap diet. The thing to minimize for me therefore is protein cost.

-Cardinal

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I've experience the exact opposite.

Plus a more liquified diet is proably better for someone that has IBS because its a certain food item that varies with the individual that causes the problem. SO in essence its not really the whey, its the removal of certain foods that helps more with the problem. IBS is a very erratic condition in that there is no real pattern to it. So from your standpoint since your someone that sufferes from a particular ailment, a liquified diet is probably better for you. I would rather see you incorporate more egg or casein powder than large amounts of whey just from the simple fact that you probably aren't even using all the aminos ingested.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

As for the monetary issue, you get what you pay for.

 

[alke]

thanks guys, I will try to adding more egg protein powder my next bulk.

I was SO tired of eating all the time last bulk and I was only getting 4600 calories a day, which when you eat clean is a LOT of food and time on the crapper LOL (not to mention the time to pre-plan and organize/pack my feedings everyday)

 

[iron addict]

While whey protein is easily digestable it is still initially digested in the stomach. The only proteins that bi-pass initial break-down in the stomach and pass directly to the intestines are free-form aminos. Yes, it is a relatively quick process when compared to the stomach acids breaking down a piece of steak, but is still perfomed nontheless.

iron Addict

 

[jminis]

As for the monetary issue, you get what you pay for.

You got that right

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't know where your getting this from but it simply is not true. The only thing that happens in the stomach is hydrolysis. This process is also better when whole foods are ingested rather than processed powders.

Protein --> pepsin HCL --> smaller polypeptides--> small intestine

Then pancreatic and small intestinal enzymes(enteropeptidase, trypsin) further split those into tripeptides, dipeptides and amino acids.

Then enzymes (chymotrypsin, carboxypeptidase, elastase, collagenase) on the surface of the small intestinal cell hydrolyze these pepetides and thr cells absorb them. If you get an rapid influx these peptides are not hydrolyzed fast enough and will be excreted as nitrogen in the large intestine.

 

[jminis]

Bobo, with what you've said throughout the thread how do you feel then about MRP's?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Lets not forget that digestive enzymes also need to be digested so taking enzymes to help in the digestions of whey proteins does not always help because some of these enzymes are denatured when the pH of their environment chages (such as pepsin in the small intestine)

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo, with what you've said throughout the thread how do you feel then about MRP's?

I don't have a problem with MRP because the majority have mutiples sources of proteins. Just watch because many of the "sugar free" versions just substiute Maltodextrin.

With all that has been said in this thread let me make one thing clear. I am NOT anti-Whey or anti-powder. I am just against using large amounts of whey at one time because the body simple does NOT process it. Using casein, milkisolate, micellar, etc... is just fine as long as it doens't subsitute for too many whole foods. If you look at most of the research condeming low carb diets and high protein diets the majority of the negtaive effects (stones forming, calcium and other mineral excretions) happen when people are on the liquified versions. When whole foods were substituted the results were much better.

 

[iron addict]

Protein --> pepsin HCL --> smaller polypeptides--> small intestine

And that happens where?

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

2 stages happen in the stomach. 8 happen in the small intestine. I started to give a basic description after what you just quoted. I could go into more detail.

 

[Cardinal]

I've experience the exact opposite.

Plus a more liquified diet is proably better for someone that has IBS because its a certain food item that varies with the individual that causes the problem. SO in essence its not really the whey, its the removal of certain foods that helps more with the problem. IBS is a very erratic condition in that there is no real pattern to it. So from your standpoint since your someone that sufferes from a particular ailment, a liquified diet is probably better for you. I would rather see you incorporate more egg or casein powder than large amounts of whey just from the simple fact that you probably aren't even using all the aminos ingested.

I agree. Especially regarding specific food items causing problems (or actually whole classes of foods such as fibrous veggies which was a primary cause of my condition). In addition, I am about as lactose/dairy tolerant as they come and I knew ahead of time that I would not have any adverse reaction to using tons of whey/casein or what have you. I can definitely see how others would react differently.

I don't think I'll be living like this forever, lol. I like meat too much, regardless of pain caused upon ingestion, won't stop me from enjoying a steak when I want one.

If I were to incorporate more variety via powders, for the price I would probably concoct some mixture of whey, milk protein isolate and soy, in that order. That is one thing I really like about being able to buy unflavored powders at low prices. One can create a simple mix at whatever price fits the old pocketbook and still not compromise quality to any great extent.

I have been and am still searching for an ultra cheap source of calcium caseinate from local dairys. I know they can sell it in the 25kg bags at big discounts. One of these days...

-Cardinal

 

[Cuffs]

I guess this question is kind of on-topic since we're talking protein. I was going to make a new thread to ask this, but this one has such good info.

What is an acceptable amount of protein to consume in one sitting? I have read from other sources that the human body can only process 30 grams per hour, or 70 grams every two hours. Is this accurate? There was a lot of controversy over this issue on another board, with no solid foundation of the beliefs being told of. Does the timing of its consumption, the level of activity one is involved in, and types of foods added to it make a difference? Also, if too much protein is consumed in one sitting, how is the excess stored and what are the downfalls? I understand that kidney stones may be an issue. One reason I ask this is because there are times while at work, that I am unable to consume food for hours at a time (and there are no alternatives I could do to fix this prob). I find once I am able to eat, I try to get myself back on track by consuming a larger amount of protein and cal's to "catch up".

Any thoughts/knowledge on this?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

There is no one answer. It depends on the type of protein, activity, inclusion of other foods, etc....

Generally the faster the absortion the less your body can handle at one time (i.e. drinking a huge shake). The more you spread it out and keep it constant the better.

 

[lifted]

I guess this question is kind of on-topic since we're talking protein. I was going to make a new thread to ask this, but this one has such good info.

What is an acceptable amount of protein to consume in one sitting? I have read from other sources that the human body can only process 30 grams per hour, or 70 grams every two hours. Is this accurate? There was a lot of controversy over this issue on another board, with no solid foundation of the beliefs being told of. Does the timing of its consumption, the level of activity one is involved in, and types of foods added to it make a difference? Also, if too much protein is consumed in one sitting, how is the excess stored and what are the downfalls? I understand that kidney stones may be an issue. One reason I ask this is because there are times while at work, that I am unable to consume food for hours at a time (and there are no alternatives I could do to fix this prob). I find once I am able to eat, I try to get myself back on track by consuming a larger amount of protein and cal's to "catch up".

Any thoughts/knowledge on this?

Yeah man, bump this question....

Also, does it have anything to do with ones body mass when figuring out the maximum amounts of protein that can be processed? Cuffs gave out the example 30/1 hour or 70/2 hours, but does that change with the weight and size of the subject??

One more thing, if that is so, then if we need more than what is recommended, then how should we do it? Should we compromise by eating even smaller meals more frequently or do we make up for the loss of cals by adding in more fats/carbs?

 

[lifted]

Damnit, I see your answer now bobo...I type too slow..

I should've known that there isn't a single mathematical equation to figure this out....wouldn't everything be so much easier if there was though??

 

[Skark]

I've lost 180 lbs in the past 2+ years, and you're telling me what I'll be eating NOW is monotnous

 

[Dwight Schrute]

LMAO!!!

Hey Skark if you've lost that much weight and had that much discipline, what lies down the road will be easy for you

 

[RaulJimenez]

after reading the 3 pages I will concur that eating meat vs whey powder is better. We are better adapted to process dead animals than we are of processing a big whey protein powder. People remember, protein powders are there to supplement our diet, not make them our diet.

 

[iron addict]

After running a workload of 50-75 clients at any one time for years I will concur that a LARGE percentage of the lifting populace just cannot consume 3-4 lbs of meat on a daily basis. But, yes, many try--and many fail.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Who said anything about 3-4lbs of meat?

 

[lifted]

Who said anything about 3-4lbs of meat?

Well, take chicken breasts for example...3lbs. of chix breasts equal 48oz. And since there's say 7grams of protein in an ounce of chix breasts, then 7g*48oz. = 336grams of protein....the rest would still have to be through shakes.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't think you guys understand the amount of sources available to you when it comes to protein.

Just looking at one of my clients now who's total protein intake for one day is 455g, he is taking in a whole 3 scoops of protein powder and 1 can of chicken (10oz.). The rest is from other sources and I still have him that high and he's around 260. So it can be done fairly easily without using 3-4lbs of meat. I can use less than half that and get sources from whole foods that are easy to get.

 

[cctez]

Well, take chicken breasts for example...3lbs. of chix breasts equal 48oz. And since there's say 7grams of protein in an ounce of chix breasts, then 7g*48oz. = 336grams of protein....the rest would still have to be through shakes.

My goodness, how much do you guys weigh if you need more than 336grams of protein per day?

 

[lifted]

I don't think you guys understand the amount of sources available to you when it comes to protein.

Just looking at one of my clients now who's total protein intake for one day is 455g, he is taking in a whole 3 scoops of protein powder and 1 can of chicken (10oz.). The rest is from other sources and I still have him that high and he's around 260. So it can be done fairly easily without using 3-4lbs of meat. I can use less than half that and get sources from whole foods that are easy to get.

I don't doubt you, but I still don't understand....

It's either gonna be from powders, meat, or cottage cheeses for your main sources. The rest would have to come from other incomplete sources that are found in the carbs, fats you eat...example, Peanut butter, rice, nuts, etc..

So you have that guy getting his other 330 or so grams from incomplete sources that I mentioned?

Clearly, I still don't understand what you're trying to say...if you would post hte actual foods, then I think it would put this to rest...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'm not going to post his diet, thats my living!

Jergo, what are incomplete sources and what does that have to do with the amount that is used? Does the body utilize incomplete sources differetn than complete sources? Does the 8g per cup of milk not count?

 

[lifted]

I'm not going to post his diet, thats my living!

Jergo, what are incomplete sources and what does that have to do with the amount that is used? Does the body utilize incomplete sources differetn than complete sources?

No, but I always thought that you should strive to get your numbers in each day from more complete sources...

Am I wrong? And please be gentle...lol..

 

[bigmark1972]

I look at food only as fuel for the machine. I get a min of 400g of protein a day as much as I can stand from real food.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

No, but I always thought that you should strive to get your numbers in each day from more complete sources...

Am I wrong? And please be gentle...lol..

Be gentle?!!? %$#@%$#@%$#@^


It really doens't matter as long as you don't overdue with one source of incomplete protein. Thats why I stress mutiple sources all the time. My plans always have complimentary proteins so you easiuly get a full amino spread.

But the whole point is that there are many difference sources of proteins out there and if you do it right, they add up quickly. Nobody needs 3-4bs of meat per day.

 

[lifted]

Be gentle?!!? %$#@%$#@%$#@^


It really doens't matter as long as you don't overdue with one source of incomplete protein. Thats why I stress mutiple sources all the time. My plans always have complimentary proteins so you easiuly get a full amino spread.

But the whole point is that there are many difference sources of proteins out there and if you do it right, they add up quickly. Nobody needs 3-4bs of meat per day.

Okay I see what you mean by the amino spread...I just didn't understand the concept before...

*goes and attempts to change diet*

 

[NPursuit]

Okay I see what you mean by the amino spread...I just didn't understand the concept before...

Glad to see you finally caught up bro!

 

[lifted]

Glad to see you finally caught up bro!

Haha....yeah I keep telling you guys that sometimes I'm just slow...

 

[Billy the kid]

If you look at most of the research condeming low carb diets and high protein diets the majority of the negtaive effects (stones forming, calcium and other mineral excretions) happen when people are on the liquified versions. When whole foods were substituted the results were much better.

Are you basing your advice in this thread on a low carb liquid diet. Because that is not what IA is talking about at all. We are consuming carbs and a complete diet.

Ofcourse each meal will have some source of protien from whole food. Then we can use shakes to make up the difference. Even if it means SUPPLEMENTING 150-200 grams of whey,MPI, egg etc. from shakes, timed effectively, throughout the day.

50-100 grams each, from egg, whey and casien puts these 3 into the supplementation category if i am not mistaken

I really dont see what the big deal is.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

IF you have to take 75g of whey with one shake, your diet isn't complete.

You did read the first part right?

"With all that has been said in this thread let me make one thing clear. I am NOT anti-Whey or anti-powder. I am just against using large amounts of whey at one time because the body simple does NOT process it. Using casein, milkisolate, micellar, etc... is just fine as long as it doens't subsitute for too many whole foods. "

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Are you basing your advice in this thread on a low carb liquid diet. .

Is this a question? A statement? And where did I recommend a low carb liquid diet?