Are steroids a long term thing? Thoughts

[JudoJosh]

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[aceroni]

I am merely saying that Testoterone indirectly causes muscle growth, not directly.

While on cycle you:

Eat more
Train harder - Due to hemoglobin increase
Recover faster - Also due to hemoglobin increase
Have better nutrient partitioning

And obviously your body has more IGF-1 as a direct result of taking more Test. Nonetheless, without the food and without the IGF, there is no growth. All I am saying is that Test gets you there faster, but it doesn't take you somewhere that you could not have done naturally. I know.

I've experimented with this stuff and I can tell you it only speeds up or amplifies progress but it doesn't take you beyond what could be accomplished without it, speaking in terms of muscle growth and fat loss.

i'm not saying you're wrong but I see many people on gear who don't actually train hard and get ridiculous results.
The only thing i'm saying is the rate at which you're gaining muscle and losing fat is greatly accelerated above natural capacities.
That is all, sir

 

[vassille]

I guess you have never heard of a "liver". That's where surplus glucose is stored and is only released on a "as needed basis". Insulin keeps glucose from intoxicating the blood - we all know this.

I at one time was pre-diabetic. Stopped eating candies, debbie cakes and sweet tea and moved toward brown rice, potatoes, fibrous veggies and lean proteins and my problem went away and has been non-existent since. So I know from anecdotal experience what really pans out and what doesn't.

Everything in moderation. But when trying to get big, you'll need lots of all three macros.

You also didn't talk about the dire need of carbs for anaerobic exercise such as weight lifting. ATP is unable to use fatty acids in this case. It cannot be used under these conditions and therefore a surplus of glucose & creatine need to be present for outstanding training sessions.
You also have deliberately ignored the conversation surrounding the fact that the rate of digestion means everything to whether or not a carbohydrate is healthy. Sudden increase in glucose in blood = fat storage & yo-yo blood sugar. Over time, that = Type II diabetes.

Bodybuilder's diets = anti-diabetic. We care about sustained energy and sustained anabolic activity which means we need to avoid sugar spikes which things like table sugar and debbie cakes tend to give us. Lastly, we need lots of micronutrients, which you have also sorely ignored the topic of. Without proper nutritional values in our food, we'll be deficient - especially routine trainer's like myself. It is imperative to have all the micronutrients to have a properly functioning body. Considering all carbs as equal is a very dangerous piece of advice to be giving out. They aren't equal. Sugar is empty calories. Potatoes are not.

Cells use fatty acids or glucose to make ATP. I think you need to take another look at that comment again.

Im not proposing ppl eat sugar, it merely has been used as an example in this conv. Once glucose is in the blood the body doesnt know the difference where it come from. The glucose molecules are all the same. You are referring to the breakdown in the gut and how quickly the ingested carbs are turned into glucose. That's another story.
If you want to learn more about that, I suggest you buy a glucose meter and eat different carbs and check your blood sugar. You will be suprised what you will find out.
By reading your post I can see you have a general understanding of glucose but there is more to the story.

BTW, there is little need for carbs for anaerobic exercise. Do you have any proof to subtantiate this claim?
I've trained for months at the time with very low carbs, such an apple a day or something like that in total less than 100g of carbs per day in general. By eating enough fat I could train 5 days a week one hour a day without any problems plus some cardio.
See, when you want to lose body fat most of the calories come from fatty acids not glucose. Triglycerides are broken down into fatty acids from your fat deposits and some other compounds not important in this conv, and many cells use this for fuel and create more ATP than glucose does.
Obviously it is well researched that 1gr of fat had 9 calories, and 1 gr of glucose has 4.
Also to get back to your other comment, the liver stores roughly 75g of glycogen....not sure what your point is with that. In normal conditions the liver rarely gets drained of that glycogen and to replenish it only takes like a small amount of carbs. That glycogen is mainly used to sustain a stable blood glucose not to store large amounts of glycogen for anaerobic activities. If persisitently glycogen is forced into the liver, the liver will either dump it into the blood stream as triglycerides or you end up geting something called a "fatty liver".

I wish you would look deeper into how our bodies work rather be quick in pointing fingers at my statement. There is a lot more than glucose when it comes to body's methabolism.

 

[fueledpassion]

Cells dont use fatty acids for anaerobic exercise. They use them for aerobic exercise. I dont have to argue with you on that. There are only a few things man understands about the human body - this is one of them. Cells will not utilize fatty acids anaerobically because to metabolize fatty acids, you need oxygen.

Definition of the word anaerobic :
1. (of an organism or tissue) living in the absence of air or free oxygen. 2. pertaining to or caused by the absence of oxygen.


Anerobic activity needs glucose and creatine to sustain itself. You only have a few seconds of anaerobic energy built in the muscle cell, which is why we have created a structure of "sets" and "rest period" for training. During set, you use anaerobic functions like glucose converting to ATP, then creatine phosphate gets consumed to bind with ADP to create more ATP for a few more seconds of energy and then lactic acid comes into play and shuts down energy production. This is when you "fail" at the set. Afterwards, you are in an aerobic state, in which blood and oxygen are carried to the cells to refill the depleted glucose and creatine phosphate. Lactic acid gets converted back into usuable energy via oxidation processes and thus explains the hard breathing that takes place after a few working sets. Your body performs aerobic activity in between sets and anaerobic activity during lifting.

I've put in plenty of man hours to understand human metabolism. In fact, I've read over 600 pages of scientifically referenced material regarding the human metabolism.

And the avergage human body is capable of storing 500-600g of glycogen total, and thats an "average". Big guys, or guys who have been starving themselves in a state of Ketosis can hold even more than average amounts.


The only thing I can say on your previous post that agrees with science is that fatty acids can convert to ATP, just not quick enough for anaerobic or high-intensity exercise. Too much intensity causes anaerobic activity to take over because you are burning energy at an unsustainable rate for fatty acid metabolism. This is common knowledge. The only exception is when the body enters a state of Ketosis. Only then can fatty acids be utilized for anaerobic energy, but this is after a number of weeks before it becomes possible. Even then, it's an irregular metabolic pathway that causes the liver to process fatty acids for immeidate energy.

Look man, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. This is stupid. We're arguing over proven aspects. I think debates should be left to topics that aren't fully understood. And this is a topic which is fully understood by the scientific community.

 

[JD261985]

Actually no... Unfortunately... I just recently realized this actually... After a off cycle, you need to start right back on, since you will just go back to your original makeup. That's assuming you have followed the correct protocol. What is the best way to hold onto muscle while off?.... Well what pros would normally do is take a form of igf pct to help mature the "new muscle"... Something has to keep you in that intense muscle building state.

Ostarine works quite well off how about MK 677??

 

[SPS]

First off im not your fukking son knucklehead!
Second, grow the fukk up and stop trying to make up for your small dickk with a big mouth pea brain.

Hahaha, I am not sure what I like better about this thread, the fact that there is a lot of good info or that your angry posts litterally make me lol. I don't know man maybe you should listen to them about carbs, then you could drop a few pounds and won't be too embarrassed to post a pic.....



And yeah feel free to point out my avi isn't a pic of me either, its all good

 

[Captn_the]

First off im not your fukking son knucklehead!
Second, grow the fukk up and stop trying to make up for your small dickk with a big mouth pea brain.

Lol nice comeback - youre totally discredited kid.

I hope you're taking notes from some of the great posts I'm reading on this thread.

 

[R1187]

All I am saying is that Test gets you there faster, but it doesn't take you somewhere that you could not have done naturally.

If what you say is true, someone could train flawlessly for 20 years with impecable diet and recovery, finally reach a wall, start running a gram of test a week, and NOT get the slightest muscle gains from it.

 

[fueledpassion]

If what you say is true, someone could train flawlessly for 20 years with impecable diet and recovery, finally reach a wall, start running a gram of test a week, and NOT get the slightest muscle gains from it.

I wouldn't know. I haven't ever met anyone that falls under this category. Probably never will either. Besides, if he doesn't eat a surplus of food, he won't grow. That's what I have learned. All the juice in the world will not give you more lbs until you are willing to eat for more lbs.

Otherwise, you get a recomposition, due to the increased nutrient partitioning effect. But at the end of the day, that hat goes off to GH, which usually does most of its magic during sleep. And quite honestly, most of the guys I know running gear do it to maintain the energy, stamina and recovery ability that they once had in the past. It's a means to get in the gym to keep doin what they have always done. It helps intensity. And coupled with additional hunger and calories, it gives GH the resources to do what it does best - grow muscles. And btw, this whole time you have been defending Testosterone in a very general perspective. I have been arguing against it from a molecular perspective.

 

[R1187]

And btw, this whole time you have been defending Testosterone in a very general perspective. I have been arguing against it from a molecular perspective.

I don't doubt you're a smart guy, you seem to know a lot about these issues.

But, I don't see how you can claim steroids "in general" won't allow you to surpass what you can achieve without them.

 

[fueledpassion]

I don't doubt you're a smart guy, you seem to know a lot about these issues.

But, I don't see how you can claim steroids "in general" won't allow you to surpass what you can achieve without them.

Because I have had a crap ton of it in my system before, not gaining any weight after a certain point (because I wasn't eating enough)

And at a later date I have not had any in my system, and ate plenty of food and surpassed my previous strength and mass without them.

That's my point, I guess. Either way, there is clearly some truth to your thoughts and I appreciate it, sir. It gives me hope the a pyramid scheme might be effective for me in cycling in the future...

 

[SPS]

In a way you are both right. Even if you train and eat perfect if you naturally have low test, you will have issues gaining muscle and keeping off fat. But no one is perfect, life happens and you miss a workout or miss a meal or don't have a choice to eat something you don't want to eat. So in that sense no one knows what their true potential is and for a lot of people anabolics simply help people get great results even though they aren't perfect all the time.

 

[musclebrah]

Well thanks for taking over the thread and going off topic lol