Are steroids a long term thing? Thoughts

[Doughnut]

Good thread.

Seeing as we're asking all sorts, is the following scenario realistic?

A newbie (with good form and nutrition, so not complete newbie) does a cycle of AAS, does a legit PCT, as long as he hasn't passed his natural genetic potential (which obviously is a variable) he would pretty much keep most of his gains?

So what I'm getting at is could newbies use AAS as a short cut?

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to do the above, don't think I'll ever dabble with AAS but it doesn't hurt to know about 'the dark side'

 

[madds87]

Good thread.

Seeing as we're asking all sorts, is the following scenario realistic?

A newbie (with good form and nutrition, so not complete newbie) does a cycle of AAS, does a legit PCT, as long as he hasn't passed his natural genetic potential (which obviously is a variable) he would pretty much keep most of his gains?

So what I'm getting at is could newbies use AAS as a short cut?

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to do the above, don't think I'll ever dabble with AAS but it doesn't hurt to know about 'the dark side'

Yes you could keep it. That's if you are keeping your calories at the point of keeping that new muscle.

 

[alwaysgaining]

I get it now

If you want to stay above the genetic limit you have to keep cycling for life it's like a lifestyle

If you use it once and you don't pass your genetic limit you'll keep most of the gains
and . But once you pass your limit and never cycle again you'll slowly go back to your genetic limit.

dudo your genetic limit like mine is so f****** huge massive 250 pound it take years to get ther and then cycling and u get huge synthetic muscles mass and to maintain hat u neee gear

 

[R1187]

dudo your genetic limit like mine is so f****** huge massive 250 pound it take years to get ther and then cycling and u get huge synthetic muscles mass and to maintain hat u neee gear

The drugs are synthetic; the muscles are not.

 

[vassille]

You are probably right but that is pretty doom and gloom considering the avg Joe is at a "higher" weight(fat) eats way too many carbs and doesn't work out and still manages to live to his 60s, 70s, 80s

Signs show very early in life as early as 40. Then the meds come into play trying to fix the problem which is prob why ppl tend to live a little longer being sick, crappy life though.
With steroids this problem is accelerated with the increase of food intake and cholesterol being higher, insulin, blood pressure etc..
That's why it's important to eat right in accordance to your body type. While off the cycle back off the food and give your body a break to recover.
I'd say if ppl decide to be on a lot watch your cholesterol closely. If you need to take suplements to correct it do it.

 

[Celorza]

Good thread.

Seeing as we're asking all sorts, is the following scenario realistic?

A newbie (with good form and nutrition, so not complete newbie) does a cycle of AAS, does a legit PCT, as long as he hasn't passed his natural genetic potential (which obviously is a variable) he would pretty much keep most of his gains?

So what I'm getting at is could newbies use AAS as a short cut?

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to do the above, don't think I'll ever dabble with AAS but it doesn't hurt to know about 'the dark side'

Please do not look for encouragement to start a cycle and enjoy the lifestyle...I do not frown upon AAS at all, but I do not see the point when someone is just a recreational lifter and not a competitive athlete or Pro BodyBuilder (the latter, which is not present in this forum at all).

 

[vassille]

Yes you could keep it. That's if you are keeping your calories at the point of keeping that new muscle.

That is correct. And then there is a point that you can go past that and be on anabolics and stay even bigger but you need to eat even more!
THat's the catch. Trust me after a while being 250lbs tends to be a chore if all you do all day is eat 6-7 meals. You def need to love bodybuilding to do this.

 

[vassille]

what are good carbs?

I consider good carbs natural carbs that you can find in the ground or pick off a tree. So if you are into eating carbs to bulk I usually go for patatoes, fruits, vegetables, wild rice things like that. That's just me

 

[Celorza]

I consider good carbs natural carbs that you can find in the ground or pick off a tree. So if you are into eating carbs to bulk I usually go for patatoes, fruits, vegetables, wild rice things like that. That's just me

Potatoes, rice and veggies grow on trees...yup I'll take cake, brownies and muffins with a side order of pancakes to go please!

 

[vassille]

Potatoes, rice and veggies grow on trees...yup I'll take cake, brownies and muffins with a side order of pancakes to go please!

yeah I used to kill pancakes from Mcdonalds but that;s thing of the past lol

It's proccessed vs unprocessed i was trying to get at.

 

[Claytonr4]

Personally the feeling and confidence makes it a very ad ducting drug. I love the physical outcome but nothing feels better than being ON

 

[Captn_the]

Are you stupid bro or just ignorant or both?
To be at a higher weight all the time and being on anabolics long-term requires a lot of food. All that food puts a lot of strain on you digestive system, including your pancreas and your organs in general. To eat 400-500-600g of carbs a day requires a ton of insulin. Dont you think this insulin has some kind of effect on cells?
Maybe you should get off the juice sometimes and do a little more research instead of making statements that shows your level of knowledge and ignorance.

Lol at your ignorance. By your reckoning, larger guys are prone to diabetes because they have to ingest more carbs over their lifetime.

Who the fk eats 400-500g of sugar a day? Answer a fat fk. Outside of the training window Bodybuilders eat brown rice, sweet potatoes etc that have a low insulin response.

Back your statements up with some studies, or sit back and stfu n00b.

 

[fueledpassion]

the best supplement is food. Eat plenty of it. Eat the right kind. Have plenty of micronutrients in there to keep everything working properly.

You'll keep all the muscle. Muscle loss is as simple as a caloric deficit. Glycogen retention and keeping a low bodyfat are what steroids are good for. They don't cause you to grow beyond what you could do alone. They only speed up the process & make it easier to do. GH and insulin is what causes you to go beyond what your body could ever do on its own.

People really need to understand the sex steroids do not proliferate the muscle cells and cause growth. They help channel more food to muscle cells and less to body fat when digested, among other things like increasing oxygen density in the vessels for optimal training and recovery. They do a number of things surrounding muscle growth, but never actually grow the muscle (except in glycogen retention), which isn't muscle mass but energy stored up as sugars.

Testosterone (and it's alternatives) for muscle training

GH & Insulin for muscle growth

 

[vassille]

Lol at your ignorance. By your reckoning, larger guys are prone to diabetes because they have to ingest more carbs over their lifetime.

Who the fk eats 400-500g of sugar a day? Answer a fat fk. Outside of the training window Bodybuilders eat brown rice, sweet potatoes etc that have a low insulin response.

Back your statements up with some studies, or sit back and stfu n00b.

Eating sweet patatoes or brown rice turns into glucose. Eating table sugar turns into glucose as well. Difference of the 2 is breakdown rate. The end result is the same eat too much and you suffer the same consequences..dumb ass.
Wow bro, you really need to hit the books. THis is so basic.

 

[LMuscle]

Eating popcorn while watching bro-wrestling haha

 

[fueledpassion]

Eating sweet patatoes or brown rice turns into glucose. Eating table sugar turns into glucose as well. Difference of the 2 is breakdown rate. The end result is the same eat too much and you suffer the same consequences..dumb ass.
Wow bro, you really need to hit the books. THis is so basic.

Your answer conflicts with your argument. If I ate 500g of sweet potato vs. 500g of table sugar, the results would be different.

The faster food breaks down into usuable glucose, the greater the insulin secretion by the pancreas. The greater the release of insulin, the greater amount of food gets put up into fat cells, assuming you were't carb depleted. If carb depleted, you might get lucky and store up the vast majority as glycogen in the muscle and liver. But the chances are slim. You'll also have a sugar crash, because that much insulin equates to your body going from a really high blood sugar count to a really low blood sugar count within a few minutes.

So essentially, you supported your foe's response by agreeing that each break down at different rates. This is why certain complex carbs are also called "slow-releasing carbs". The slower the release, the less likely to have an insulin surge, which means a more steady flow of glucose - which ultimately means a more desireable nutrient partitioning.

RECAP:

1) Table sugar and sweet potato both convert to glucose, albeit at different rates

2) The rate of breakdown has a great influence on the amount of insulin released at any one time. If a surge of sugar rushes into the blood (which by the way is toxic to your blood), the greater the insulin response thus leading to fat storage.

3) Since a sweet potato breaks down slower than table sugar, sweet potatoes illicit a more gradual insulin response, which leads to less fat storage and more constant fuel & energy for the body.

4) The end result is not the same. We could do an experiment if you like.

a) you could eat table sugar carbs @ 2g per lb of body weight per day for 4 weeks

b) I could eat sweet potato carbs @ 2g per lb of body weight per day for 4 weeks

Let's see who gets fatter quicker. And lets also see who turns pre-diabetic quicker, too. If you really believed what you said before to the other guy, you should have no problem with attempting this quick study. We might could come to the conclusion in just a few short days really - you might not even last that long before going into a diabetic coma, lol.

 

[Celorza]

Your answer conflicts with your argument. If I ate 500g of sweet potato vs. 500g of table sugar, the results would be different.

The faster food breaks down into usuable glucose, the greater the insulin secretion by the pancreas. The greater the release of insulin, the greater amount of food gets put up into fat cells, assuming you were't carb depleted. If carb depleted, you might get lucky and store up the vast majority as glycogen in the muscle and liver. But the chances are slim. You'll also have a sugar crash, because that much insulin equates to your body going from a really high blood sugar count to a really low blood sugar count within a few minutes.

So essentially, you supported your foe's response by agreeing that each break down at different rates. This is why certain complex carbs are also called "slow-releasing carbs". The slower the release, the less likely to have an insulin surge, which means a more steady flow of glucose - which ultimately means a more desireable nutrient partitioning.

RECAP:

1) Table sugar and sweet potato both convert to glucose, albeit at different rates

2) The rate of breakdown has a great influence on the amount of insulin released at any one time. If a surge of sugar rushes into the blood (which by the way is toxic to your blood), the greater the insulin response thus leading to fat storage.

3) Since a sweet potato breaks down slower than table sugar, sweet potatoes illicit a more gradual insulin response, which leads to less fat storage and more constant fuel & energy for the body.

4) The end result is not the same. We could do an experiment if you like.

a) you could eat table sugar carbs @ 2g per lb of body weight per day for 4 weeks

b) I could eat sweet potato carbs @ 2g per lb of body weight per day for 4 weeks

Let's see who gets fatter quicker. And lets also see who turns pre-diabetic quicker, too.

Outcomes would be different? Please show me a study proving that !

 

[Stupes]

If anyone thinks refined, manufactured, table sugar is the same as eating a sweet potato - that's your own problem.

Common sense here. People get lost in the weeds with these fads. Holy sh*t

 

[fueledpassion]

Outcomes would be different? Please show me a study proving that !

Are you serious man? Sweet potatoes make you look like this:


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Seriously, I lived off sweet potatoes during comp prep.

I think the point needs to be made that too much insulin is what causes fat storage. Generally, the slower your food digests, the smaller the insulin secretion (as it pertains to carbs and sugars).

Now this doesn't mean that fats get used as energy immediately upon digestion. They have a different metabolic fate than carbs and protein.

 

[Celorza]

If anyone thinks refined, manufactured, table sugar is the same as eating a sweet potato - that's your own problem.

Common sense here. People get lost in the weeds with these fads. Holy sh*t

Hm...many studies that have been posted in this forum prove that glycemic index doesn't affect body composition...how do you explain that then?

 

[fueledpassion]

Glycemic index is junk. It also says that ice cream is a non offender, too. We could do an experiment on that one too and see who gets fatter - ice cream vs potatoes, lol.

Glycemic index also says that maltodextrin has a really high GI, like 106-130, which is stupid high. Yet the maltodextrin molecule is more complex, gummy and in general takes longer to digest than table sugar (which has a GI in the 60's) and other refined carbs. I have tested the two on myself and I know now that the GI diets are not telling the whole story. I think GI reflects how much insulin per unit measure of that food is released, but it doesn't actually reflect how long and slow the release itself takes.

Malto dextrin is a good case-in-point. I get a strong insulin response but it happens over a stretched out period of time, which allows for sustainable energy which is perfect for training. I do the same with straight sugar and 20 minutes later I'm having a sugar crash and needing more food for energy.

So I guess I agree with you on the GI thing. Here is its definition:

A number representing the ability of a food, relative to that of glucose, to increase the level of glucose in the blood.

So just because something has a greater ability to increase blood glucose does not necessarily tell us how long it takes to do it. Sweet potatoes and maltodextrin both increase blood glucose and hold it steady, causing a steady stream of insulin to be released throughout the digestive process.

Yet it doesn't equate to fat gains, either. Because a trickle of insulin for several hours is very anabolic in nature as to where something like table sugar (which breaks down extremely fast) is a sure fire way to store up as fat since too much sugar gets released into the blood in too short of a time period. That causes a surge of insulin, and a blood sugar that yo-yo's throughout the day.

 

[Stupes]

Hm...many studies that have been posted in this forum prove that glycemic index doesn't affect body composition...how do you explain that then?

I explain that by saying that the GI is a fad too - and I didn't mention the idiotic GI at all.

But table sugar has no nutrients, no vitamins, nothing. It's only redeeming quality is that it acts quickly and can be a catalyst to carry good stuff to muscle immediately after/during a workout. Very specialized situation and you can use other sources of carbs for that purpose rather than refined sugar.

Getting lost in the weeds....

 

[Stupes]

Glycemic index is junk. It also says that ice cream is a non offender, too. We could do an experiment on that one too and see who gets fatter - ice cream vs potatoes, lol.

Glycemic index also says that maltodextrin has a really high GI, like 106-130, which is stupid high. Yet the maltodextrin molecule is more complex, gummy and in general takes longer to digest than table sugar (which has a GI in the 60's) and other refined carbs. I have tested the two on myself and I know now that the GI diets are not telling the whole story. I think GI reflects how much insulin per unit measure of that food is released, but it doesn't actually reflect how long and slow the release itself takes.

Malto dextrin is a good case-in-point. I get a strong insulin response but it happens over a stretched out period of time, which allows for sustainable energy which is perfect for training. I do the same with straight sugar and 20 minutes later I'm having a sugar crash and needing more food for energy.

So I guess I agree with you on the GI thing. Here is its definition:

A number representing the ability of a food, relative to that of glucose, to increase the level of glucose in the blood.

So just because something has a greater ability to increase blood glucose does not necessarily tell us how long it takes to do it. Sweet potatoes and maltodextrin both increase blood glucose and hold it steady, causing a steady stream of insulin to be released throughout the digestive process.

Yet it doesn't equate to fat gains, either. Because a trickle of insulin for several hours is very anabolic in nature as to where something like table sugar (which breaks down extremely fast) is a sure fire way to store up as fat since too much sugar gets released into the blood in too short of a time period. That causes a surge of insulin, and a blood sugar that yo-yo's throughout the day.

Agreed - the whole GI thing will be gone in a few years.

Carbs are the in thing right now - but it cycles - it was fats 5 years ago.

In the Roman times - look at what people were the biggest and strongest. The northern Europeans and certain African tribes - the hunters and gatherers who ate leaves, nuts, berries and meat. The agrarian societies who ate breads and wheat were smaller. What does that say? Something to think about perhaps.

 

[aceroni]

Are you serious man? Sweet potatoes make you look like this:

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Seriously, I lived off sweet potatoes during comp prep.

ewww, you're telling me I'll look like that if I eat sweet potatoes?

I was hoping to be much more cut,
No thanks, I'll stick to table sugar..

Haha, just kidding man you look great, but for some constructive criticism your legs could have came in harder,
Either a, you could have been leaner
Or b, you could have been drier.
Please don't take offense to this, it's not meant to be derogatory, just constructive criticism, take it for what it's worth

Agreed - the whole GI thing will be gone in a few years.

Carbs are the in thing right now - but it cycles - it was fats 5 years ago.

In the Roman times - look at what people were the biggest and strongest. The northern Europeans and certain African tribes - the hunters and gatherers who ate leaves, nuts, berries and meat. The agrarian societies who ate breads and wheat were smaller. What does that say? Something to think about perhaps.

Also, i'm sure diet played a role here, but not to quite the extent that genetics did.

 

[Stupes]

Also, i'm sure diet played a role here, but not to quite the extent that genetics did.

Perhaps - maybe it was the hunting lifestyle that also contributed to being bigger and stronger - more active and more need for strength/speed. But at the very least - that type of diet maintained and supported the bigger, stronger people of the time.

 

[fueledpassion]

ewww, you're telling me I'll look like that if I eat sweet potatoes?

I was hoping to be much more cut,
No thanks, I'll stick to table sugar..

Haha, just kidding man you look great, but for some constructive criticism your legs could have came in harder,
Either a, you could have been leaner
Or b, you could have been drier.
Please don't take offense to this, it's not meant to be derogatory, just constructive criticism, take it for what it's worth



Also, i'm sure diet played a role here, but not to quite the extent that genetics did.

Haha no offense was taken. U r tellin me what I already knew before I walked on stage. The next 18 months is dedicated to legs. I've added an inch to them since then and hope to add another two to three by next year.

My upper body, especially my shoulders, has always come in correctly. Yet I was dry as I need to be in those pics. In fact, I was depleted. Hind sight, things would've been different no doubt. Looking forward I hope to pack on another 30lbs of good stuff - and mainly in the trunks.

 

[aceroni]

Haha no offense was taken. U r tellin me what I already knew before I walked on stage. The next 18 months is dedicated to legs. I've added an inch to them since then and hope to add another two to three by next year.

My upper body, especially my shoulders, has always come in correctly. Yet I was dry as I need to be in those pics. In fact, I was depleted. Hind sight, things would've been different no doubt. Looking forward I hope to pack on another 30lbs of good stuff - and mainly in the trunks.

Cool man i'm Glad you took that so well most people freak out at the slightest criticism.

 

[fueledpassion]

Cool man i'm Glad you took that so well most people freak out at the slightest criticism.

The shortcoming in my legs has done wonders for my motivation in the gym though. Because of this reality, I have now laid out the next 6-8 months of training program to get bigger and stronger.

Until about 3 weeks ago, I had been seriously lacking in strength training. Unfortunately, my body stopped reacting well to volume training. And since then, with nothin but a cruise control of Test-E, I have seen tremendous improvements in strength & muscle density not to mention a few solid lbs of mass.

I surprised myself with a deadlift pull of 395lbs last night, weighing in at only 162lbs. I didn't think I could lift that much. I'm curious to see what I could do with SD or Phera.

 

[madds87]

Signs show very early in life as early as 40. Then the meds come into play trying to fix the problem which is prob why ppl tend to live a little longer being sick, crappy life though.
With steroids this problem is accelerated with the increase of food intake and cholesterol being higher, insulin, blood pressure etc..
That's why it's important to eat right in accordance to your body type. While off the cycle back off the food and give your body a break to recover.
I'd say if ppl decide to be on a lot watch your cholesterol closely. If you need to take suplements to correct it do it.

How can you say it accelerates?

 

[fueledpassion]

People who train consistently will likely have a better cholesterol profile than those who don't at that age (40+). In fact, training is about the only natural thing you can do to combat cholesterol issues anyways since most of it is genetic makeup. Food has a lesser impact on cholesterol levels, unless you consider the Daniel's Diet. Lack of exercise has a great impact on it though.

Steroids at 40+ will likely be TRT levels which is between 100-250mg per week, which isn't high enough to have sides like that but is enough to get an old man off his butt and go to the gym.

 

[R1187]

People really need to understand the sex steroids do not proliferate the muscle cells and cause growth. They help channel more food to muscle cells and less to body fat when digested, among other things like increasing oxygen density in the vessels for optimal training and recovery. They do a number of things surrounding muscle growth, but never actually grow the muscle (except in glycogen retention), which isn't muscle mass but energy stored up as sugars.

Testosterone (and it's alternatives) for muscle training

GH & Insulin for muscle growth

I recall a well-known study where men were put on 600mg 12 week testosterone cycles, and they DID NOT TRAIN.

They all gained a modest amout of lean mass. I want to say 8 to 12lbs or so I'll have to find the study.

Point is, it does seem steroids can cause muscle growth on their own. Actually training and eating is what really accelerates those gains.

 

[aceroni]

The shortcoming in my legs has done wonders for my motivation in the gym though. Because of this reality, I have now laid out the next 6-8 months of training program to get bigger and stronger.

Until about 3 weeks ago, I had been seriously lacking in strength training. Unfortunately, my body stopped reacting well to volume training. And since then, with nothin but a cruise control of Test-E, I have seen tremendous improvements in strength & muscle density not to mention a few solid lbs of mass.

I surprised myself with a deadlift pull of 395lbs last night, weighing in at only 162lbs. I didn't think I could lift that much. I'm curious to see what I could do with SD or Phera.

I am exactly the same brother.
My legs are not up to par with my upper body so I have really been hammering away at them and have seen growth on my whole body since...

Strength training is very important, even to bodybuilders, it gives your muscle that dense hardness to it.

I too was doing too much volume and not enough strength training, the heavy squats and deads have made me much thicker and bigger

 

[fueledpassion]

Did the subjects eat more? I imagine they did. And I also imagine the steroids cause nutrient partitioning. But without GH, the Test is useless for actual dry muscle fiber proliferation gains.

Lean mass also includes water weight, btw.

Steroids cause nutrient partitioning. They also cause hunger increases if the dose is high enough. 600mg of Test is enough to increase hunger significantly. More calories + better nutrient partitioning = more growth, particularly in muscle mass and less fat storage.

Now if the same group of people also ate the same amount as they did with 600mg of test in their system, they'd probably gain the same amount of weight, but this time mostly fat. Which brings me to the point I made earlier, steroids only help you do it in a lean fashion.

You are overlooking the caloric surplus + water weight. You are telling me that because non-trained people took test, that it caused muscular development. But reality is, the subjects most likely ate more & had better nutrient partitioning so that the surplus of food went to good intentions instead of bad intentions (ie. muscle cells got the calories instead of fat cells) which would explain the lean mass gains and the loss of fat simulateously.

GH and IGF causes muscular growth. Last time I checked, there wasn't any other hormone that performed this.

You can grow in muscle mass without Test. You can't grow in muscle mass without GH & IGF. Otherwise, women would be helpless in seeing gains. Their efforts would be futile. But we know that isn't true. It's easy to give all the credit to steroids. Fact is, they don't actually cause muscle growth, they make it easier to do things. Case in point, you go on a mass building routine, you pack on more lbs of weight in the same amount of time with testosterone cycles than you would without. Likewise, you also burn more fat in a caloric deficit with test than without it. Which supports the idea that it only accelerates what your body is already capable of doing. Yet it won't take you past what you could do naturally. And in many cases, trained subjects that cycle test often lose a large portion of weight, indicating that the gains were wet at best and not solid.

The GH, Insulin & IGF-1 bit is where men go from being "jacked" to "freakshow", surpassing anything they could have done with steroids alone.

 

[aceroni]

I recall a well-known study where men were put on 600mg 12 week testosterone cycles, and they DID NOT TRAIN.

They all gained a modest amout of lean mass. I want to say 8 to 12lbs or so I'll have to find the study.

Point is, it does seem steroids can cause muscle growth on their own. Actually training and eating is what really accelerates those gains.

And I agree with you 100% brother,
BUT,

Too often people point fingers at a successful athlete and say "steroids" when they tend to disregard the hard work and dedication that was put into it. Ex lance Armstrong, any pro bodybuilder

and again, here is another big
BUT,
Too often lazy people take steroids and make incredible gains even with a lack of dedication and hard work, and when they are accused of steroids they say "hard work" and disregard the drugs
Ex kids I know who used to be small and started taking drugs and blew up. But when I watch them train it's a joke, texting for ten minutes upwards between sets.

My point being, it's a double edged sword.
Should pro athletes use? If it's against the rules, but everyone around them is using, I'd say then they have every right to use, but we should have drug free divisions for those that choose to go that route.
Should average Joe use?
If he's on a large amount of gear at an early age (hgh,t3, insulin), and still can't win a local show, he's on a dead end road that will ultimately end up poorly for him

I do not use myself, nor am I anti gear. I think if it can be used responsibly than you should have the choice to do so, (one last time)
BUT
F'ing around with your endocrine system is no joke kids.

 

[aceroni]

. But reality is, the subjects most likely ate more & had better nutrient partitioning so that the surplus of food went to good intentions instead of bad intentions (ie. muscle cells got the calories instead of fat cells) which would explain the lean mass gains and the loss of fat simulateously.

test alone will cause one to gain muscle.. raising test to above normal levels increases protein synthesis... What happens when you increase protein synthesis? Bingo, muscle gain.

You will gain much faster with hgh and insulin, i'm not arguing that.
But you cannot sit here and say that test alone will not cause dry muscle gains. Why else have I seen people on this board suggest a test only first cycle

 

[LMuscle]

F'ing around with your endocrine system is no joke kids.

I disagree, it's always good for an occasional chuckle/yuck.

 

[R1187]

This is intersting. Here's a study where the recipients did not train. Apparently, using testosterone alone can also increase IGF-1 levels.

The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance.

In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.

600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits:

Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and igf-1.

The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.

The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for igf-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and igf-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

Total Testosterone
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline

igf-1
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
Fat Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
Thigh Muscle Volume
300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
Quadriceps Muscle Volume
300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
Leg Press Strength
300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
Leg Power
300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
Hemoglobin
300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
Plasma HDL Cholesterol
300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
Acne
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

 

[R1187]

test alone will cause one to gain muscle.. raising test to above normal levels increases protein synthesis... What happens when you increase protein synthesis? Bingo, muscle gain.

You will gain much faster with hgh and insulin, i'm not arguing that.
But you cannot sit here and say that test alone will not cause dry muscle gains. Why else have I seen people on this board suggest a test only first cycle

Just consider the fact that livestock are sometimes implanted with testosterone pellets.

No doubt about it, it leads to lean muscle gains that would never have otherwise occured.

 

[aceroni]

This is intersting. Here's a study where the recipients did not train. Apparently, using testosterone alone can also increase IGF-1 levels.

The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone's effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance.

In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.

600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits:

Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and igf-1.

The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.

The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for igf-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and igf-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

Total Testosterone
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline

igf-1
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
Fat Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
Thigh Muscle Volume
300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
Quadriceps Muscle Volume
300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
Leg Press Strength
300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
Leg Power
300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
Hemoglobin
300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
Plasma HDL Cholesterol
300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
Acne
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

Thank you for the study sir

 

[LeanMaShane]

I've only done oral. I've done sledge and gained about 8 lbs. I am now doing M-Sten and am about 3 weeks in and have gained about 5 lbs. I have buddies that tell me to do injectables but it's just so expensive! I can buy a stack with a PCT for $150 and that's a 15 week cycle! I haven't done blood work so idk how my liver and all that is but I take milk thistle and other liver protectors daily. I've been happy with orals, might do a injectable cycle here in about 4 months will see.

 

[Stupes]

I've only done oral. I've done sledge and gained about 8 lbs. I am now doing M-Sten and am about 3 weeks in and have gained about 5 lbs. I have buddies that tell me to do injectables but it's just so expensive! I can buy a stack with a PCT for $150 and that's a 15 week cycle! I haven't done blood work so idk how my liver and all that is but I take milk thistle and other liver protectors daily. I've been happy with orals, might do a injectable cycle here in about 4 months will see.

Very interesting - 15 week oral cycle......

 

[AwhYeah]

I've only done oral. I've done sledge and gained about 8 lbs. I am now doing M-Sten and am about 3 weeks in and have gained about 5 lbs. I have buddies that tell me to do injectables but it's just so expensive! I can buy a stack with a PCT for $150 and that's a 15 week cycle! I haven't done blood work so idk how my liver and all that is but I take milk thistle and other liver protectors daily. I've been happy with orals, might do a injectable cycle here in about 4 months will see.

Dear God.

 

[madds87]

Never do a 15 week cycle of ph.... unless we are talking real low doses... like 5mg

 

[vassille]

My point is very simple but it prob will take a lengthy explanation. WHen protein synthesis are increased through the addition of testosterone beyond HRT dosages for a long time as it states in the original point of this thread, it increases the need for food as well. THis food intake puts a strain on the body as it is an artificial way of achieving this protein synthesis which normally is not possible.
Now the issue with glucose. Glucose is glucose regardless where it comes from, muscle cells for example will process it the same way. There is not a different way to process glucose from table sugar any differently than sweet patatoe. Table sugar does have some fructose which the liver has to deal with in a different way and that's where some issues rise but we taking strictly glucose here.
The main point im making is this, glucose itself has the capacity to create problems to insulin receptors found on any cell in the body.
Talking strictly biochemistry, a cell has the ability to use either fatty acids or glucose to make ATP.
So far so good. Fatty acids have no need for an inslulin response. It can be utilized by the cell as a fatty acid. Glucose on the other hand it NEEDS insulin to prop open the cell receptor to receive glucose to make ATP. Regardless if you eat whatever carbs, glucose in the blood will automatically trigger an insulin response. Why this is so important, it's because too much glucose in the blood is toxic to nerves and does a lot of damage. Ask ppl with diabetes.
So when someone says im eating sweet patatoes... it doesnt really matter, what matter is how much glucose is in the blood, how much the body uses for ATP production and how much insulin you need to allow that glucose to enter any cell.
Here is the punch line....many ppl have no idea what takes place at cellular level. They eat X amount of carbs and make X amount of glucose out of it. THe problem occurs when cells receive more glucose than actually is used to make ATP. At that point everything backs up, receptors are less responsive because the cell itself is bombarded with too much glucose which it doesnt need and signals the receptor to take it down a notch. THis is the start of insulin resistance if left unchecked.
So the pancreas secrets more insulin to overcome the problem and things just get worse from there. All this happens without any symptoms!!
So unless you check your blood glucose and also check your insulin production you have no idea what is going on.
Now since many ppl dont eat that much fat and a lot of carbs you can all connect the dots.
THere isnt anyone in here that really pays attention to their blood glucose and how much insulin their body make to burn that glucose unless you are diabetic. So saying that you are fine and dont have insulin resistance is shooting darts in the dark. Just as an FYI...we dont have an unlimited amount of insulin supply. The more we use the less we have later on life. The beta cells in the pancreas if overly solicited for many years will tend to make less insulin as you get older. So although bodybuilding is catchy, ppl being big and what not it does take a toll on ppl's internal organs to get there.
I hope this helps some ppl get a handle on their diet in understanding how glucose is processed at cellular level.
THe link below is of a fellow Dr Doug Mcguff who will explain how cells work in much more detail. There are 2 parts about 20 min total.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Captn_the]

Eating sweet patatoes or brown rice turns into glucose. Eating table sugar turns into glucose as well. Difference of the 2 is breakdown rate. The end result is the same eat too much and you suffer the same consequences..dumb ass.
Wow bro, you really need to hit the books. THis is so basic.

It's always nice to see who is calling me a dumbarse.

I'm 6'2" and pretty visible in my avi. Well over 220lbs.

Lets see what sort of physique your superior knowledge of bodybuilding has given you.

Put your money where your mouth is son

 

[vassille]

It's always nice to see who is calling me a dumbarse.

I'm 6'2" and pretty visible in my avi. Well over 220lbs.

Lets see what sort of physique your superior knowledge of bodybuilding has given you.

Put your money where your mouth is son

First off im not your fukking son knucklehead!
Second, grow the fukk up and stop trying to make up for your small dickk with a big mouth pea brain.

 

[Stupes]

Glucose is glucose regardless where it comes from, muscle cells for example will process it the same way. There is not a different way to process glucose from table sugar any differently than sweet patatoe. Table sugar does have some fructose which the liver has to deal with in a different way and that's where some issues rise but we taking strictly glucose here.
The main point im making is this, glucose itself has the capacity to create problems to insulin receptors found on any cell in the body.
Talking strictly biochemistry, a cell has the ability to use either fatty acids or glucose to make ATP.
So far so good. Fatty acids have no need for an inslulin response. It can be utilized by the cell as a fatty acid. Glucose on the other hand it NEEDS insulin to prop open the cell receptor to receive glucose to make ATP. Regardless if you eat whatever carbs, glucose in the blood will automatically trigger an insulin response. Why this is so important, it's because too much glucose in the blood is toxic to nerves and does a lot of damage. Ask ppl with diabetes.
So when someone says im eating sweet patatoes... it doesnt really matter, what matter is how much glucose is in the blood, how much the body uses for ATP production and how much insulin you need to allow that glucose to enter any cell.
Here is the punch line....many ppl have no idea what takes place at cellular level. They eat X amount of carbs and make X amount of glucose out of it. THe problem occurs when cells receive more glucose than actually is used to make ATP. At that point everything backs up, receptors are less responsive because the cell itself is bombarded with too much glucose which it doesnt need and signals the receptor to take it down a notch. THis is the start of insulin resistance if left unchecked.
So the pancreas secrets more insulin to overcome the problem and things just get worse from there. All this happens without any symptoms!!
So unless you check your blood glucose and also check your insulin production you have no idea what is going on.

I have read that table sugar converts to glucose at a rate around 15 times greater than complex starches. Is this true?

If so: x amount of glucose ingested from sugar will have a greater probability of bombarding the cell than x amount of glucose ingested from a starch - no? Because x amount of glucose from the sugar is "dumped" onto the cells quickly while the starch spreads the glucose release over time.

I am only talking equal amounts of glucose from both sources.....

 

[fueledpassion]

I am merely saying that Testoterone indirectly causes muscle growth, not directly.

While on cycle you:

Eat more
Train harder - Due to hemoglobin increase
Recover faster - Also due to hemoglobin increase
Have better nutrient partitioning

And obviously your body has more IGF-1 as a direct result of taking more Test. Nonetheless, without the food and without the IGF, there is no growth. All I am saying is that Test gets you there faster, but it doesn't take you somewhere that you could not have done naturally. I know.

I've experimented with this stuff and I can tell you it only speeds up or amplifies progress but it doesn't take you beyond what could be accomplished without it, speaking in terms of muscle growth and fat loss.

 

[fueledpassion]

My point is very simple but it prob will take a lengthy explanation. WHen protein synthesis are increased through the addition of testosterone beyond HRT dosages for a long time as it states in the original point of this thread, it increases the need for food as well. THis food intake puts a strain on the body as it is an artificial way of achieving this protein synthesis which normally is not possible.
Now the issue with glucose. Glucose is glucose regardless where it comes from, muscle cells for example will process it the same way. There is not a different way to process glucose from table sugar any differently than sweet patatoe. Table sugar does have some fructose which the liver has to deal with in a different way and that's where some issues rise but we taking strictly glucose here.
The main point im making is this, glucose itself has the capacity to create problems to insulin receptors found on any cell in the body.
Talking strictly biochemistry, a cell has the ability to use either fatty acids or glucose to make ATP.
So far so good. Fatty acids have no need for an inslulin response. It can be utilized by the cell as a fatty acid. Glucose on the other hand it NEEDS insulin to prop open the cell receptor to receive glucose to make ATP. Regardless if you eat whatever carbs, glucose in the blood will automatically trigger an insulin response. Why this is so important, it's because too much glucose in the blood is toxic to nerves and does a lot of damage. Ask ppl with diabetes.
So when someone says im eating sweet patatoes... it doesnt really matter, what matter is how much glucose is in the blood, how much the body uses for ATP production and how much insulin you need to allow that glucose to enter any cell.
Here is the punch line....many ppl have no idea what takes place at cellular level. They eat X amount of carbs and make X amount of glucose out of it. THe problem occurs when cells receive more glucose than actually is used to make ATP. At that point everything backs up, receptors are less responsive because the cell itself is bombarded with too much glucose which it doesnt need and signals the receptor to take it down a notch. THis is the start of insulin resistance if left unchecked.
So the pancreas secrets more insulin to overcome the problem and things just get worse from there. All this happens without any symptoms!!
So unless you check your blood glucose and also check your insulin production you have no idea what is going on.
Now since many ppl dont eat that much fat and a lot of carbs you can all connect the dots.
THere isnt anyone in here that really pays attention to their blood glucose and how much insulin their body make to burn that glucose unless you are diabetic. So saying that you are fine and dont have insulin resistance is shooting darts in the dark. Just as an FYI...we dont have an unlimited amount of insulin supply. The more we use the less we have later on life. The beta cells in the pancreas if overly solicited for many years will tend to make less insulin as you get older. So although bodybuilding is catchy, ppl being big and what not it does take a toll on ppl's internal organs to get there.
I hope this helps some ppl get a handle on their diet in understanding how glucose is processed at cellular level.
THe link below is of a fellow Dr Doug Mcguff who will explain how cells work in much more detail. There are 2 parts about 20 min total.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

I guess you have never heard of a "liver". That's where surplus glucose is stored and is only released on a "as needed basis". Insulin keeps glucose from intoxicating the blood - we all know this.

I at one time was pre-diabetic. Stopped eating candies, debbie cakes and sweet tea and moved toward brown rice, potatoes, fibrous veggies and lean proteins and my problem went away and has been non-existent since. So I know from anecdotal experience what really pans out and what doesn't.

Everything in moderation. But when trying to get big, you'll need lots of all three macros.

You also didn't talk about the dire need of carbs for anaerobic exercise such as weight lifting. ATP is unable to use fatty acids in this case. It cannot be used under these conditions and therefore a surplus of glucose & creatine need to be present for outstanding training sessions.

You also have deliberately ignored the conversation surrounding the fact that the rate of digestion means everything to whether or not a carbohydrate is healthy. Sudden increase in glucose in blood = fat storage & yo-yo blood sugar. Over time, that = Type II diabetes.

Bodybuilder's diets = anti-diabetic. We care about sustained energy and sustained anabolic activity which means we need to avoid sugar spikes which things like table sugar and debbie cakes tend to give us. Lastly, we need lots of micronutrients, which you have also sorely ignored the topic of. Without proper nutritional values in our food, we'll be deficient - especially routine trainer's like myself. It is imperative to have all the micronutrients to have a properly functioning body. Considering all carbs as equal is a very dangerous piece of advice to be giving out. They aren't equal. Sugar is empty calories. Potatoes are not.

 

[vassille]

I have read that table sugar converts to glucose at a rate around 15 times greater than complex starches. Is this true?

If so: x amount of glucose ingested from sugar will have a greater probability of bombarding the cell than x amount of glucose ingested from a starch - no? Because x amount of glucose from the sugar is "dumped" onto the cells quickly while the starch spreads the glucose release over time.

I am only talking equal amounts of glucose from both sources.....

Im not sure about the numbers on the conversion but that stands to reason that sugar converts faster. THe variable in both cases is fiber. If you add fiber to sugar it in the end the rate would be similar in both all things equal.
If you ingest sugar by itself yes cells would be bombarded with glucose in a short period of time. Now, some starches that have been processed and have little to no fiber like white bread, will act similar to sugar when it comes to glucose.