Anyone not getting results from -epi? check in here.

Have you gotten results from your epi product?

  • yes

    Votes: 71 64.5%

  • no

    Votes: 39 35.5%
  • Total voters
    110
Olympus Labs said:
I'm completely impartial in this matter but you seem to be a little fixated on your point of view in regards to explaining what's happening with all these (-)-epicatechin users / logs. Yes there are limited studies on the ingredient itself but if you take the countless logs on AM surrounding EP1C, Follidrone, etc you'll find that (-)-epicatechin is not just responsible for being a strong anti-oxidant/anti-inflammatory.

People have bulked up 20 lbs while just using (-)-epicatechin. A user was benching 275*8 and now benching 315*5. The list of these sort of feats goes on and on, and on, and I think its pretty well established by now this isn't all the result of placebo. It works period. Now if you need an actual study with a control group to establish the facts to you then great, but please take a look at the countless logs of all the people reporting amazing results as well.

here's a place to skim over the results of AM users. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/olympus-labs/251697-q-olympus-labs-7.html . It doesn't just have benefits in "elderly people."
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People were also reporting crazy gains with Versa-1... so...

I'm also not saying the stuff doesn't work, just discussing the MOA. Now you're trying to say not to fixate on the MOA and just have faith that it works by looking at all the wonderful anecdotal feedback. How does that make any reasonable sense? If something works, knowing the MOA is a must so that further investigation can find how else we may manipulate things to work with that MOA.

It's absolutely positively ridiculous for you to sit there and tell people to just have faith that something works without any notion as to the MOA.

For goodness sakes, PLENTY of things have come out on the market where it turns out the stuff didn't do diddly squat YET they still provided (for the most part) a pretty clear description of the MOA or possible MOA. (-)epi according to you and plenty of anecdotal feedback suggests that it does work, so for something that DOES work, how does it make sense to tell people essentially to ignore HOW it works because you yourself don't know how it works. This then brings us to the biggest problem here then:

How does one put out products if one doesn't know what are the things that the ingredient does?

For you to be saying what you have said, that would only help a smart potential customer ignore your products completely. How can anyone trust a product coming from a company that doesn't have an answer for how their products work? How do you go about formulating something when you don't know what the ingredients in the product does? How do you go about properly dosing ingredients? How do you even have a product? For all a consumer knows, you could be selling lawn clippings.
 
kissdadookie said:
People were also reporting crazy gains with Versa-1... so...

I'm also not saying the stuff doesn't work, just discussing the MOA. Now you're trying to say not to fixate on the MOA and just have faith that it works by looking at all the wonderful anecdotal feedback. How does that make any reasonable sense? If something works, knowing the MOA is a must so that further investigation can find how else we may manipulate things to work with that MOA.

It's absolutely positively ridiculous for you to sit there and tell people to just have faith that something works without any notion as to the MOA.

For goodness sakes, PLENTY of things have come out on the market where it turns out the stuff didn't do diddly squat YET they still provided (for the most part) a pretty clear description of the MOA or possible MOA. (-)epi according to you and plenty of anecdotal feedback suggests that it does work, so for something that DOES work, how does it make sense to tell people essentially to ignore HOW it works because you yourself don't know how it works. This then brings us to the biggest problem here then:

How does one put out products if one doesn't know what are the things that the ingredient does?

For you to be saying what you have said, that would only help a smart potential customer ignore your products completely. How can anyone trust a product coming from a company that doesn't have an answer for how their products work? How do you go about formulating something when you don't know what the ingredients in the product does? How do you go about properly dosing ingredients? How do you even have a product? For all a consumer knows, you could be selling lawn clippings.
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Listen buddy, save the paragraphs. You're the one sitting there telling everyone that the extreme gains that they're seeing are due to "anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits."
 
Olympus Labs said:
Listen buddy, save the paragraphs. You're the one sitting there telling everyone that the extreme gains that they're seeing are due to "anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits."
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Yup, because based on the information available, that would be the likely culprit. What's your answer? That you have no clue, go look at user feedback and blindly trust that? How many times has this story been used and told before already?

You're basically sitting there stating: I don't know how it works, but trust me, it works and because it works that's why I'm selling it.

The "trust me, it works" line would work if it was coming from a consumer, you're not the consumer now are you? You're selling the stuff, you should have an inkling of an idea as to how the stuff works, because you're selling it.

For goodness sakes, why are you even annoyed at what I'm saying? I didn't say the stuff absolutely doesn't work. You're basically getting upset that I'm pointing out the fact that it's probably not inhibiting myostatin. If it works through other means, how the heck does that even affect you? If it works it works plus you clearly don't know how it works, so why are you basically defending this idea that it's inhibiting myostatin? I mean, clearly you don't know how it works and it shows in your posts.
 
Antioxidants almost always hinder gains when taken around workouts not help them. That's why coop was so excited when he came across verbacoside because it was the one exception he'd ever found to this rule
 
Quadzilla99 said:
Antioxidants almost always hinder gains when taken around workouts not help them. That's why coop was so excited when he came across verbacoside because it was the one exception he'd ever found to this rule
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Exactly, there are some anti-oxidants that would not counter the adaptation from exercise.
 
kissdadookie said:
Yup, because based on the information available, that would be the likely culprit. What's your answer? That you have no clue, go look at user feedback and blindly trust that? How many times has this story been used and told before already?

You're basically sitting there stating: I don't know how it works, but trust me, it works and because it works that's why I'm selling it.

The "trust me, it works" line would work if it was coming from a consumer, you're not the consumer now are you? You're selling the stuff, you should have an inkling of an idea as to how the stuff works, because you're selling it.

For goodness sakes, why are you even annoyed at what I'm saying? I didn't say the stuff absolutely doesn't work. You're basically getting upset that I'm pointing out the fact that it's probably not inhibiting myostatin. If it works through other means, how the heck does that even affect you? If it works it works plus you clearly don't know how it works, so why are you basically defending this idea that it's inhibiting myostatin? I mean, clearly you don't know how it works and it shows in your posts.
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I'm sure most company owners here use their own products as do I. For EP1C in particular, my team and I have been searching of ways to make the half life of EP1C longer, and I believe there was alpha testing done on (-)-epicatechin products. Whatever preliminary results we see in users will help us gauge whats needed to be done. We tell people the product works based off of alpha testing and all the preliminary feedback. Have you used (-)-epi or not? At least we're telling people that it works based off of alpha-testing and extreme gains seen are due to myostatin inhibition seen.

I don't recall you ever using (-)-epi yet you have the right to attribute all gains seen to it's "anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties", I believe that myostatin inhbition plays a strong role in these rapid strength and weight gains due to the results of alpha testing and preliminary feedback on the product.

If you want to go around telling people that all their gains are attributed to those two predefined criterion that you always defer to then go ahead.
 
kissdadookie said:
Exactly, there are some anti-oxidants that would not counter the adaptation from exercise.
Click to expand...

One. He's never found anything but that one 99.9% of them are bad to take around exercise. NO HYPE, pinchthebear, and others wrote volumes on this on bb.com. Relates to something called hormesis that you don't want to interfere with the natural process of
 
Olympus Labs said:
I'm sure most company owners here use their own products as do I. For EP1C in particular, my team and I have been searching of ways to make the half life of EP1C longer, and I believe there was alpha testing done on (-)-epicatechin products. Whatever preliminary results we see in users will help us gauge whats needed to be done. We tell people the product works based off of alpha testing and all the preliminary feedback. Have you used (-)-epi or not? At least we're telling people that it works based off of alpha-testing and extreme gains seen are due to myostatin inhibition seen.

I don't recall you ever using (-)-epi yet you have the right to attribute all gains seen to it's "anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties", I believe that myostatin inhbition plays a strong role in these rapid strength and weight gains due to the results of alpha testing and preliminary feedback on the product.

If you want to go around telling people that all their gains are attributed to those two predefined criterion that you always defer to then go ahead.
Click to expand...

I have not used it nor have I ever claimed to have nor is it even necessary to have used it or not to be able to discuss the MOA of an ingredient. Your alpha-testing doesn't demonstrate anything in regards to the ingredient being an inhibitor of myostatin or not. All that would demonstrate is that it does do something, what and how it does it is very obviously beyond you as one can easily tell in your post.

WHAT MYOSTATIN INHIBITION HAVE YOU SEEN? You have JUST made a claim that you have SEEN myostatin inhibition being demonstrated. Where's the tests that demonstrates this? People making gains off the stuff from your alpha or whatever testing only shows/suggests that it does something positive for muscle and strength gains, it however DOES NOT demonstrate it inhibiting myostatin.
 
Quadzilla99 said:
One. He's never found anything but that one 99.9% of them are bad to take around exercise. NO HYPE, pinchthebear, and others wrote volumes on this on bb.com. Relates to something called hormesis that you don't want to interfere with the natural process of
Click to expand...

What's your take on this: Invalid Link Removed

It looks like instead of countering the adaptation, it may help modulate and augment the positive effects of exercise.
 
Oh look, another EPI argument. This is getting worse than nerds arguing over Star Wars.
 
I completely understand dook's argument above, but the fact is that we all take these supplements knowing full well they aren't FDA approved etc.

If you don't trust OL or another company, don't use their products.
 
kissdadookie said:
I agree. Planning on finishing this ArA run first, then deload/taper, then probably give (-)epi a shot.
Click to expand...

I'm in a similar boat, finishing up a run on alphamax this week, then I'll take a few weeks off and give epi a shot. Hopefully goes on sale sometime between then, spending too much money on my daughters first birthday!
 
kissdadookie said:
What's your take on this: Invalid Link Removed

It looks like instead of countering the adaptation, it may help modulate and augment the positive effects of exercise.
Click to expand...
I'm not an expert but I think you don't really wanna reduce oxidative stress so thats looking at it from the wrong angle. You wanna induce it then your body will naturally adapt to it which is what hormesis is afaik. Also they didn't measure strength, lbm, etc. Whether or not this stuff works attributing its effects to being from any anti-inflammatory or antioxidant properties seems unlikely since generally taking that kind of stuff around workouts hinders gains not helps them.
 
BB.com supplement forum used to be a pretty awesome place for science Invalid Link Removed
 
Quadzilla99 said:
I'm not an expert but I think you don't really wanna reduce oxidative stress so thats looking at it from the wrong angle. You wanna induce it then your body will naturally adapt to it which is what hormesis is afaik. Also they didn't measure strength, lbm, etc. Whether or not this stuff works attributing its effects to being from any anti-inflammatory or antioxidant properties seems unlikely since generally taking that kind of stuff around workouts hinders gains not helps them.
Click to expand...

I think it depends. That's what that study was trying to show (at least that's what I think it was trying to say). The first thing it pointed out is that it's well known that most anti-oxidants are counter-productive for the positive benefits of exercise but that strategically timed supplementation of anthocyanin from blackcurrant (this is just one variant of anthocyanins, there are many others) seems to not interfere with the positive responses to exercise but also help modulate some of the negative effects (they measured CK levels which was significantly lowered with the anthocyanin supplementation).
How anthocyanins work in the body isn’t actually very well understood I think apart from them having strong anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory properties.

Would like to hear what more knowledgeable (not trying to put you down of course Quad) folks takes are on things like anthocyanins.
 
Quadzilla99 said:
BB.com supplement forum used to be a pretty awesome place for science Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

You'll never know until there is an actual study conducted.

Having said that, epi does have some sort of evidence suggested it MIGHT help. (excluding logs).

I remember when Bill L came out with X-Factor and he was ridiculed over it...it didn't have much scientific proof and many people said it was actually unhealthy. The top "bro's" hammered him.

Seems science finally caught up...at least suggesting it increases muscle growth. Not saying that will happen here, but it sure it entertaining to watch people get upset over a.......supplement.


I also remember when they said creatine didn't work...yeah, I'm sort of old.
 
Admin said:
You'll never know until there is an actual study conducted.

Having said that, epi does have some sort of evidence suggested it MIGHT help. (excluding logs).

I remember when Bill L came out with X-Factor and he was ridiculed over it...it didn't have much scientific proof and many people said it was actually unhealthy. The top "bro's" hammered him.

Seems science finally caught up...at least suggesting it increases muscle growth. Not saying that will happen here, but it sure it entertaining to watch people get upset over a.......supplement.


I also remember when they said creatine didn't work...yeah, I'm sort of old.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's highly likely that it's doing something that is positive if going by the feedback, would just like to see more data come out on what it is that it is actually doing.

If it's inhibiting myostatin, wondering if it is directly doing that or if the myostatin markers are indirect outcomes from what it really is doing.

Quadzilla99 said:
another good post about antioxidants Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Think the consensus there really ended up being depends on the anti-oxidant and what the anti-oxidant is affecting. Obviously you don't want it inhibiting COX-2. Seems that it's possible it can be dose dependent as well.

I think anthocyanins holds a lot of promise as possible ergogenic anti-oxidants. Unfortunately dem things are friggin costly (not just C3G, but anthocyanins in general).
 
kissdadookie said:
Agreed. It's highly likely that it's doing something that is positive if going by the feedback, would just like to see more data come out on what it is that it is actually doing.

If it's inhibiting myostatin, wondering if it is directly doing that or if the myostatin markers are indirect outcomes from what it really is doing.
Click to expand...


You will always have hype in this industry. It will never go away...if you get upset over it, plan on being upset for the rest of your life. Not the type of life I choose, but if it floats your boat....have at it.

Having said that, when I look at the products being put out...you have a couple new companies that don't have long track records (10yrs+) in this industry, but a person I do trust in terms of of due diligence is Matt from Evomuse. If he thinks there is something to it, then its worth a look IMO. Im not saying the new guy's don't do their research, but Matt has been around for a long time. That in itself makes those products containing epi worth looking at.
 
Admin said:
You will always have hype in this industry. It will never go away...if you get upset over it, plan on being upset for the rest of your life. Not the type of life I choose, but if it floats your boat....have at it.

Having said that, when I look at the products being put out...you have a couple new companies that don't have long track records (10yrs+) in this industry, but a person I do trust in terms of of due diligence is Matt from Evomuse. If he thinks there is something to it, then its worth a look IMO. Im not saying the new guy's don't do their research, but Matt has been around for a long time. That in itself makes those products containing epi worth looking at.
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Again, agreed. Thus I wasn't arguing if the stuff worked or didn't work ;) Was just throwing around ideas in regards to how it might be actually working.

A lot of these phytochemicals warrants investigation, especially when one considers how much of it hasn't been studied enough when they really should be because of a lot of potential benefits they could bring to the table.
 
kissdadookie said:
I have not used it nor have I ever claimed to have nor is it even necessary to have used it or not to be able to discuss the MOA of an ingredient. Your alpha-testing doesn't demonstrate anything in regards to the ingredient being an inhibitor of myostatin or not. All that would demonstrate is that it does do something, what and how it does it is very obviously beyond you as one can easily tell in your post.

WHAT MYOSTATIN INHIBITION HAVE YOU SEEN? You have JUST made a claim that you have SEEN myostatin inhibition being demonstrated. Where's the tests that demonstrates this? People making gains off the stuff from your alpha or whatever testing only shows/suggests that it does something positive for muscle and strength gains, it however DOES NOT demonstrate it inhibiting myostatin.
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How argumentative are we today? Lol. What OL is trying to say is that your theory of epicatechin products inducing the results are likely outside of the realm of strictly antioxidant and its anti-inflammatory properties. That seems rather far fetched IMO.

There is zero reason for you to in all caps (which is the forum equivalent of shouting at someone) ask what myostatin inhibition we have seen. Being the study hound you are, I'm sure you've seen the study conducted on rodents showing reduced myostatin and β-galactosidase levels with modest supplementation of epicatechin. That is where one of the theorized MOA's of epicatechin comes from, as I'm almost positive you are aware, which leads me to wonder about your motives for being so confrontational. Anyways, this is where extrapolation of rodent data comes into play. 85% of supplements are discovered from rodent data mind you, so dismiss them all you want but it's what we have to work with.

To respond to your questions directed at OL specifically:

"WHAT MYOSTATIN INHIBITION HAVE YOU SEEN?" We have seen it in rodents. From there, as done by BLR and Evomuse, you then take the ingredient of interest and conduct testing. When an ingredient does the same thing (increasing muscle mass and strength) seen in the studies one can then hypothesize that this is what is happening with our and their supplements.

"Where's the tests that demonstrates this? Right here: Invalid Link Removed

"People making gains off the stuff from your alpha or whatever testing only shows/suggests that it does something positive for muscle and strength gains, it however DOES NOT demonstrate it inhibiting myostatin" The study above is being used to extrapolate a possible MOA.

We are gathering from the MOA of epicatechin that it does in fact inhibit myostatin due to the fact that it was seen in rodent studies. Is it a leap? Yes, possibly but no more so than the ridiculous thought that an antioxidant or anti-inflammatory is the MOA behind putting slabs of muscle on people, greatly increasing endurance and the associated strength gains we're seeing from it. An antioxidant may make the body operate more efficiently but you're simply not going to see the strength increases and body composition changes that we have been seeing with epicatechin and to assume that is quite the leap in itself.

Myostatin inhibition as an MOA makes far more sense due to the role that myostatin plays in the body. It can be hypothesized that with the reduction of myostatin you are going to see all the results people are seeing from epi. You guys don't want to believe it because Rx companies have not introduced this product that's fine, don't believe it. Most people that have used it believe it and that's good enough for us. The bottom line is, until further studies are done we can't say for certain what the MOA is but there are many rodent studies out there that are providing us with the possible MOA's which we are falling in line with due to the anecdotal feedback we have been receiving.
 
WTF happened to Spaniard, aka ****** :)

He used to be a rabble rouser...now he's all diplomatic and ****.


:D
 
Admin said:
You will always have hype in this industry. It will never go away...if you get upset over it, plan on being upset for the rest of your life. Not the type of life I choose, but if it floats your boat....have at it.

Having said that, when I look at the products being put out...you have a couple new companies that don't have long track records (10yrs+) in this industry, but a person I do trust in terms of of due diligence is Matt from Evomuse. If he thinks there is something to it, then its worth a look IMO. Im not saying the new guy's don't do their research, but Matt has been around for a long time. That in itself makes those products containing epi worth looking at.
Click to expand...

i agree...i was just looking at this as just another flavor of the month untill i saw matt's involvement with it.

really surprised at the results of the poll. i thought with all this fuss the pro's would be much higher....around 62% favorable is good but not outstanding, honestly i thought it would have been higher.
 
Admin said:
WTF happened to Spaniard, aka ****** :)

He used to be a rabble rouser...now he's all diplomatic and ****.


:D
Click to expand...
Hahaha! Hey, **** you buddy! ;)

Was I that bad? I guess I'm getting old :( I mean more mature? I don't know, probably just getting old.
 
Has anybody seen a log for an -epi product where they weren't pleased with the results?

My point is, while there are people saying it did nothing for them, I haven't came across a detailed log saying so for any company's -epi.

What were their diets, training, rest etc like for the ones who didn't get results?
 
I've been taking follidrone and have definitely noticed results so my vote on (-)- is that its awesome.. I should try the other products out there to compare.
Placebo has never worked on me I won't allow myself to be tricked by marketing.. I ain't no fool
 
kisaj said:
Man, it feels like no matter what is said, someone is ready to attack.
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62% favorable is no attack, merely the fact. honestly, i thought it would be higher.

i have for the most part stayed out of these epi debates, now i understand why i should continue to do so.

enjoy the day, gentlemen!!!
 
Weird..... I'm the most toughest opponent of all supplements lately and I'm seeing nothing but positive results on follidrone .. Just finished my first bottle of my second run. This supplement is such a fuking treat to my system, its like night and day... Some people in my opinion are actually trying to find reasons to say they don't feel or see results. What a joke.. Send me all your bottles that you don't wont. I'll give you 50 cents on the dollar if your really desperate and don't believe it doesn't work;)
 
Invalid Link Removed

This was taken this morning. I'm on my third bottle of follidrone. Bro science and skepticism be damned. I had never been able to maintain over 230 (I'm 6'1") while being this lean and having constant strength and endurance without any anabolics. Everyone that is into their physique or their physical performance should give (-)-epi a shot. I've actually purchased multiple bottles for friends and employees now. One friend that is 5'5" and drinks way too much and doesn't diet correctly went from benching 225 for 3 to 225 for 9 in four weeks while getting visibly leaner. My Internet tech went from benching 185 for 12 to 225 for 11 in two weeks taking follidrone with a low dose of var, var increases ur strength, but not like that, he was also on a cut. One buddy that is 5'9" 165lbs that can flat bench 350 has actually been gaining weight taking folli and he is the definition of hard gainer. Took two cycles to get him to maintain 165lbs up from 160, eating well and training hard. **** I flat benched 405 twice 3 weeks ago and I've been cutting for three months.
 
I get the idea behind the poll, to gather random yes or no answers from any and every yahoo in this forum cool, but why not take the time to invite users who have logged this product and get a deeper understanding into just what or wasn't working for them when using this product. The responses seem all over the place with no credibility to just what any individual did, ate, or if they used it solo or in conjunction with other products. I find it extremely hard to believe that this product can be used with "NO" benefit, whether it be cardiovascular endurance, Lipid levels, muscular endurance, or decent recomposition effects. I mean seriously at what point did you decide this product wasn't working? Not referring to the individuals who say to have used it for 4-8 week cycles but I cant see myself "using" anything for 8 weeks and not having one thing to report in other than "I felt nothing". It a new compound introduced into your diet, something somewhere has to change.

Now I fully understand that non-responders exist, hell some people who bought this on the hype that they would look like that dog lls bought this on that hype.

Bottom line a poll is quite useless if you cant get an idea of what the user did while using this product. Im no expert logger, and hell Ive forgotten to take the caps a few times but I know without a doubt I had a great run with it.

Thanks to all those who did take the time to share their experiences as some have plenty of experience on the forum so i trust what they say good or bad, but some of these responses should have just been left as a quick glance and a big X on the window lol.

I will be looking around for logs or posts as I really am curious to how in what situations would this product not be beneficial.
 
I gave a couple of bottles to a friend of mine who is in his late sixties....
Hes been a bodybuilder since the Arnold era and has used gear and all kinds of supps.
Currently hes only using the Follidrone and hes telling me its the best supplement hes ever taken hands down.

(-)-epicatechin is not just a myostatin inhibitor. It clearly has more than just this going on.
For old guys though the Myostatin part is huge.
Hes telling me it feels like he was...rebooted. His word.
And that he is able to make progress again which ...at 67 is not normal.
 
brundel said:
I gave a couple of bottles to a friend of mine who is in his late sixties.... Hes been a bodybuilder since the Arnold era and has used gear and all kinds of supps. Currently hes only using the Follidrone and hes telling me its the best supplement hes ever taken hands down. (-)-epicatechin is not just a myostatin inhibitor. It clearly has more than just this going on. For old guys though the Myostatin part is huge. Hes telling me it feels like he was...rebooted. His word. And that he is able to make progress again which ...at 67 is not normal.
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im gonna give some to my dad (64yrs old), I was reading that one of the first reasons (-)- epi was being researched was to help seniors have more energy throughout the day.
 
Honestly if u read mountainman's, nattyforlife's, touey's or themovements folli logs how can u not wanna give this stuff a try? I know these guys are straight shooters and no bullsh!t. Results don't lie.
 
TheMovement said:
I get the idea behind the poll, to gather random yes or no answers from any and every yahoo in this forum cool, but why not take the time to invite users who have logged this product and get a deeper understanding into just what or wasn't working for them when using this product. The responses seem all over the place with no credibility to just what any individual did, ate, or if they used it solo or in conjunction with other products. I find it extremely hard to believe that this product can be used with "NO" benefit, whether it be cardiovascular endurance, Lipid levels, muscular endurance, or decent recomposition effects. I mean seriously at what point did you decide this product wasn't working? Not referring to the individuals who say to have used it for 4-8 week cycles but I cant see myself "using" anything for 8 weeks and not having one thing to report in other than "I felt nothing". It a new compound introduced into your diet, something somewhere has to change.

Now I fully understand that non-responders exist, hell some people who bought this on the hype that they would look like that dog lls bought this on that hype.

Bottom line a poll is quite useless if you cant get an idea of what the user did while using this product. Im no expert logger, and hell Ive forgotten to take the caps a few times but I know without a doubt I had a great run with it.

Thanks to all those who did take the time to share their experiences as some have plenty of experience on the forum so i trust what they say good or bad, but some of these responses should have just been left as a quick glance and a big X on the window lol.

I will be looking around for logs or posts as I really am curious to how in what situations would this product not be beneficial.
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I didn't notice any effects from double dosing epi for 8 weeks aside from that I get from normal progression. My strength went up, yes, but that was expected, I also got larger but again, my diet accounted for that. I have zero idea what my blood values did but in all fairness, I wouldn't spend this much money just for improvements in lipid profile when diet changes and exercise changes can account for that.

My diet is very consistent in terms on macronutrient intake and my periodisation plan is very structured and so I have planned increases during my weekly microcycles.

Does that mean I think it does not work? Not at all. But it didn't work for me. It may have better results with those in the older population. I gave it a fair shot, but unfortunately was let down
 
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