Any Non-Andro Based PH or DS still legal/not banned?

[Willtolift]

Basically just wondering, if their are any non-andro based PH or DS still legal/not banned? If so, are their still any companies producing them. I am looking for something to run in addition to test for a kick-start.

 

[Brandaddy]

There is HT'S new superdrol. Apparently the key ingredient in that is based off pregnenolone instead.

 

[Brandaddy]

I just started taking it last week. 5 days later and I'm up about 5lbs without changing my macros. So it seems to be doing its job..

 

[booneman77]

trest, dmz, msten are all not banned (yet)... OL still makes trest, Sparta Nutrition is about to release trest, dmz and msten all (should be within a few weeks pending the new company settling some startup business)

 

[Willtolift]

Of the trest, dmz, and msten which one would be a better kick-start to a 12 week cycle of test cyp at 500-600mgs split weekly?

 

[VaughnTrue]

Trest, and methylstenbolone, and dmz(if referencing dymethazine) are absolutely currently banned under both DSHEA and DASCA

 

[Willtolift]

Well that sucks... You suppose running 1-andro at 990mgs for the first four weeks would render gains comparable to kick starting a test cycle with oxandrolone at anything close 30-60mgs daily?

 

[VaughnTrue]

Why would you think to run it at 990mg/day?!?

The studied dose of 330mg gave users ~10lbs of LBM in 30 days, and our Cyclosome enhanced delivery system has had users up 12lbs+ in a month at only 200mg.

Highest I'd go is 440mg(via HiTech 1-Testosterone with includes the delivery enhancement) and hang on for the ride. It will kick HARD.

 

[dave39]

Are you on prescribed test?

 

[Willtolift]

Why would you think to run it at 990mg/day?!?

The studied dose of 330mg gave users ~10lbs of LBM in 30 days, and our Cyclosome enhanced delivery system has had users up 12lbs+ in a month at only 200mg.

Highest I'd go is 440mg(via HiTech 1-Testosterone with includes the delivery enhancement) and hang on for the ride. It will kick HARD.

I guess my reasoning is because I am thinking of it as being weak compared to dbol and anavar which I have used in the past. Which in all honesty is just an assumption. I just find myself questioning the effectiveness of non methylated orals.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I guess my reasoning is because I am thinking of it as being weak compared to dbol and anavar which I have used in the past. Which in all honesty is just an assumption. I just find myself questioning the effectiveness of non methylated orals.

1-Andro is going to out perform Anavar for size gains 24/7/365 hands down.

Nothing is going to touch a compound like dbol/anadrol due to conversion & potency, but that doesn't mean the gains won't be great.

 

[uprightrows]

trest, dmz, msten are all not banned (yet)... OL still makes trest, Sparta Nutrition is about to release trest, dmz and msten all (should be within a few weeks pending the new company settling some startup business)

This is the first I have heard about a new company releasing msten, great news! Also, any idea if the trest will be TD or oral?

 

[uprightrows]

Of the trest, dmz, and msten which one would be a better kick-start to a 12 week cycle of test cyp at 500-600mgs split weekly?

Dmz if you want 6 wk kick start, msten if you want 4-5. I wouldn't run trest long term with test unless you are using it as an oral pre-workout.

 

[Hawkwarrior]

That 1 andro really kicks anavar like that?

 

[linuxjon]

Msten looks like it'd be a perfect kickstart compound. Still legal, just harder to locate.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I would go with methylstenbolone if you can find it from a reputable company

 

[warlordwrug]

trest, dmz, msten are all not banned (yet)... OL still makes trest, Sparta Nutrition is about to release trest, dmz and msten all (should be within a few weeks pending the new company settling some startup business)

Where did you hear that from on Sparta releasing dmz and trest?

 

[unreal89]

Ive seen best results from msten when I ran 50 mg DMZ with it only noticed msten so kick start with msten or test prop

 

[booneman77]

This is the first I have heard about a new company releasing msten, great news! Also, any idea if the trest will be TD or oral?

Td. There are oral options from focused nutrition and ol available currently.

 

[Willtolift]

So what's up with Vaughn saying these are all illegal?

 

[booneman77]

Trest, and methylstenbolone, and dmz(if referencing dymethazine) are absolutely currently banned under both DSHEA and DASCA

Not trying to start an argument here but no one is ever going to use the term "dmz" to refer to anything else. Just because you guys have a product you "call" dmz...

And if they're all banned then how are multiple brands still selling them in the us?

 

[booneman77]

Where did you hear that from on Sparta releasing dmz and trest?

Their product release thread and reps/boss

 

[booneman77]

So what's up with Vaughn saying these are all illegal?

No idea. Eventually I'm sure they all will be but currently they've slipped the first pass

 

[vujade]

Trest, and methylstenbolone, and dmz(if referencing dymethazine) are absolutely currently banned under both DSHEA and DASCA

I dont believe Trest will ever be banned per se. Because of it being studied and researched as male contraceptive.

 

[VaughnTrue]

No idea. Eventually I'm sure they all will be but currently they've slipped the first pass

If someone can show me where I am going wrong with my understanding on DSHEA and DASCA, I would love to discuss it.



DSHEA basics:

§3. Definitions.
(a) Definition of Certain Foods as Dietary Supplements. Section 201 (21 U.S.C. 321) is amended by adding at the end the following:
"(ff) The term "dietary supplement" -
"(1) means a product (other than tobacco) intended to supplement the diet that bears or contains one or more of the following dietary ingredients:
"(A) a vitamin;
"(B) a mineral;
"(C) an herb or other botanical;
"(D) an amino acid;
"(E) a dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or
"(F) a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any ingredient described in clause (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E);

So the above items outline what is legal to be sold as a dietary supplement.


DASCA basics:

This Act may be cited as the ``Designer Anabolic Steroid Control Act
of 2014''.
SEC. 2. AMENDMENTS TO THE CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES ACT.

(a) Definitions.--Section 102(41) of the Controlled Substances Act
(21 U.S.C. 802(41)) is amended--
(1) in subparagraph (A)--
(A) in clause (xlix), by striking ``and'' at the
end;
(B) by redesignating clause (xlx) as clause (lxxv);
and
(C) by inserting after clause (xlix) the following:
``(l) 5a-Androstan-3,6,17-trione;
``(li) 6-bromo-androstan-3,17-dione;
``(lii) 6-bromo-androsta-1,4-diene-3,17-dione;
``(liii) 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androsta-1,4-diene-3,17b-diol;
``(liv) 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-4-ene-3b,17b-diol;
``(lv) 4-chloro-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-androst-4-en-3-one;
``(lvi) 4-chloro-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-androst-4-ene-3,11-
dione;
``(lvii) 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androsta-1,4-diene-3,17b-diol;
``(lviii) 2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-one;
``(lix) 2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5b-androstan-3-one;
``(lx) 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol;
``(lxi) [3,2-c]-furazan-5a-androstan-17b-ol;
``(lxii) 3b-hydroxy-estra-4,9,11-trien-17-one;
``(lxiii) 17a-methyl-androst-2-ene-3,17b-diol;
``(lxiv) 17a-methyl-androsta-1,4-diene-3,17b-diol;
``(lxv) Estra-4,9,11-triene-3,17-dione;
``(lxvi) 18a-Homo-3-hydroxy-estra-2,5(10)-dien-17-one;
``(lxvii) 6a-Methyl-androst-4-ene-3,17-dione;
``(lxviii) 17a-Methyl-androstan-3-hydroxyimine-17b-ol;
``(lxix) 17a-Methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol;
``(lxx) 17b-Hydroxy-androstano[2,3-d]isoxazole;
``(lxxi) 17b-Hydroxy-androstano[3,2-c]isoxazole;
``(lxxii) 4-Hydroxy-androst-4-ene-3,17-dione[3,2-c]pyrazole-
5a-androstan-17b-ol;
``(lxxiii) [3,2-c]pyrazole-androst-4-en-17b-ol;
``(lxxiv) [3,2-c]pyrazole-5a-androstan-17b-ol; and''; and
(2) by adding at the end the following:

[[Page 128 STAT. 2930]]

``(C)(i) Subject to clause (ii), a drug or hormonal substance (other
than estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone)
that is not listed in subparagraph (A) and is derived from, or has a
chemical structure substantially similar to, 1 or more anabolic steroids
listed in subparagraph (A) shall be considered to be an anabolic steroid
for purposes of this Act if--
``(I) the drug or substance has been created or manufactured
with the intent of producing a drug or other substance that
either--
``(aa) promotes muscle growth; or
``(bb) otherwise causes a pharmacological effect
similar to that of testosterone; or
``(II) the drug or substance has been, or is intended to be,
marketed or otherwise promoted in any manner suggesting that
consuming it will promote muscle growth or any other
pharmacological effect similar to that of testosterone.

``(ii) A substance shall not be considered to be a drug or hormonal
substance for purposes of this subparagraph if it--
``(I) is--
``(aa) an herb or other botanical;
``(bb) a concentrate, metabolite, or extract of, or
a constituent isolated directly from, an herb or other
botanical; or
``(cc) a combination of 2 or more substances
described in item (aa) or (bb);
``(II) is a dietary ingredient for purposes of the Federal
Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.); and
``(III) is not anabolic or androgenic.

Focus on the bold text. It specifically states that if any hormonal compound is sold OTHER than forms of estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), it is explicitly already banned.



Now...lets take a look at the 3 compounds in question:


Trestolone/Trest/"MENT"

Pharmaceutical Name: Trestolone, MENT, 7MENT (as acetate)
Chemical structure: 7-alpha-19Nor-androst-4-en-3-one,17b-ol

Trestolone (INN), also known as (7α,17β)-normethandrone or as 17β-hydroxy-7α-methylestr-4-en-3-one, is a synthetic, steroidal androgen taken to build muscle rapidly, and is a theoretical candidate drug for use in hormonal male contraceptive methods

Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=0vXTBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA888#v=onepage&q&f=false

#1 - It has pharmaceutical investigation - AKA its automatically not DSHEA compliant
#2 - It is synthetic and not found in nature - AKA its automatically not DSHEA compliant
#3 - It is an active hormone, but not a form of estrogen, progestin, corticosteroid, and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) - AKA its automatically not DASCA compliant and classified as a Class III drug.



Methylstenbolone

Chemical Name(s):
2,17a-Dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androst-1-en-3-one


guys...do I really have to type this all out? It's not based on estrogen, progestin, corticosteroid, or DHEA, its a fricking dimethylated steroid, and its OBVIOUSLY not found in nature.



Dymethazine


guys...I brought this one to market originally when at iForce Nutrition. Remember this product?

I am the one who found this steroid in Julias Vidas "Androgens and Anabolic Agents" and had it synthesized for the first time in this industry. iForce Nutrition got absolutely reamed by the FDA for selling this one.









None of these compounds satisfy either DSHEA or DASCA or even have the smallest of arguments that they could.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I dont believe Trest will ever be banned per se. Because of it being studied and researched as male contraceptive.

which immediately precludes it from being able to be sold as a dietary supplement, beyond the points I showed above. Its an AMAZING compound. I think people should try it if they want to use anabolics and it seems interesting. It is however NOT a dietary supplement according to dietary supplement rules/regulations

 

[Titan20309]

Dmz is banned. All the new dmz products are all andro. Look up dmz 5.0. Product I like is by swole labs tri-mental. Also like sarm yk-11.

 

[vujade]

which immediately precludes it from being able to be sold as a dietary supplement, beyond the points I showed above. Its an AMAZING compound. I think people should try it if they want to use anabolics and it seems interesting. It is however NOT a dietary supplement according to dietary supplement rules/regulations

I know its not DSHEA Compliant, but I dont see it ever falling under DASCA as long as theres money to be made off
of it by Big Pharma.

I believe Trest will be still be able to be sold by Research Labs until it reaches your neighborhood Pharmacy

 

[VaughnTrue]

I know its not DSHEA Compliant, but I dont see it ever falling under DASCA as long as theres money to be made off
of it by Big Pharma.

I believe Trest will be still be able to be sold by Research Labs until it reaches your neighborhood Pharmacy

...I don't understand.


DASCA includes all anabolic steroids which are sold(or were sold) by pharmaceutical companies.

Testosterone is an illegal drug, it is sold by almost every single pharmaceutical company.
Dianabol is an illegal drug, it was(and may be? not sure currently) sold by pharmaceutical companies.



Many things that are legal to be prescribed as a medicine are illegal. Hell, cocaine is often used as a numbing agent in dentistry...it's still illegal.

 

[vujade]

...I don't understand.


DASCA includes all anabolic steroids which are sold(or were sold) by pharmaceutical companies.

Testosterone is an illegal drug, it is sold by almost every single pharmaceutical company.
Dianabol is an illegal drug, it was(and may be? not sure currently) sold by pharmaceutical companies.



Many things that are legal to be prescribed as a medicine are illegal. Hell, cocaine is often used as a numbing agent in dentistry...it's still illegal.

Im saying that during the research phase, while there's still human trials going on It wont be banned.

Once it is a prescription drug, then of course it would be scheduled and illegal to sell without a prescription.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Im saying that during the research phase, while there's still human trials going on It wont be banned.

Once it is a prescription drug, then of course it would be scheduled and illegal to sell without a prescription.

it's ALREADY banned/illegal due to DASCA. It is a hormonal agent, not based on estrogen, progestin, corticosteroid, and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA). There is no way around this. The legislation clearly states that the compound is preemptively banned/illegal, regardless of which stage of testing it is in. It will NEVER be legal to sell as a dietary supplement.

 

[Woody]

Dmz is banned. All the new dmz products are all andro. Look up dmz 5.0. Product I like is by swole labs tri-mental. Also like sarm yk-11.

The better explanation is DMZ 5.0 is not DMZ at all and is just trying to market to the unwary.

 

[booneman77]

VaughnTrue no one is arguing that these should be considred compliant, simply that those compounds are not explicitly called out in the last ph ban. they are still being sold by more than one retailer and more than one company. as far as technically, sure, they prob dont meet the criteria, regardless, they're not explicitly banned and thus still being produced and sold.

 

[VaughnTrue]

VaughnTrue no one is arguing that these should be considred compliant, simply that those compounds are not explicitly called out in the last ph ban. they are still being sold by more than one retailer and more than one company. as far as technically, sure, they prob dont meet the criteria, regardless, they're not explicitly banned and thus still being produced and sold.

Yes, they were. That is what I'm trying to say.

DASCA was a blanket/sweeping piece of legislation. This means it covers any/all future compounds preemptively. A compound no longer has to be on the "banned" list to be considered banned. This is because there are simply too many variations of hormones that can be produced with a tweak here, and a tweak there, so they made it so there is no chance for an argument going forward.

again, I repeat, if a hormone is created, and it is not based off of estrogen, pregneolone, corticosteroids, or dhea it is BANNED.

 

[booneman77]

Yes, they were. That is what I'm trying to say.

DASCA was a blanket/sweeping piece of legislation. This means it covers any/all future compounds preemptively. A compound no longer has to be on the "banned" list to be considered banned. This is because there are simply too many variations of hormones that can be produced with a tweak here, and a tweak there, so they made it so there is no chance for an argument going forward.

again, I repeat, if a hormone is created, and it is not based off of estrogen, pregneolone, corticosteroids, or dhea it is BANNED.

then please explain how and why companies are still able and willing to sell them.

 

[VaughnTrue]

then please explain how and why companies are still able and willing to sell them.

How are the able to sell them?

They import the raws from China, and have the product produced at either a contract manufacturer or their own facility. There are a lot of manufacturers who will run whatever powder you bring them.

You don't need FDA approval to release a dietary supplement. Once its bottled, you can sell it to whomever you want. It's on the FDA to enforce the laws on the books.


Why are they willing to sell them?


You'd have to ask them, but money talks. No one thinks they're going to get caught, yet our prisons are pretty damn full right now.

 

[yates84]

VaughnTrue is 100% correct, read the bill. Just because it's being sold doesn't mean it's legal.

 

[Brandaddy]

People sell Crack and that's not legal...

 

[Willtolift]

Well if it's all illegal, I know what route I'll go. Lol anadrol here I come.

 

[StatePlan1425]

I also don't think the "not for human consumption" warning labels are going to do anything but piss off the Feds...but I do find them entertaining.

 

[Hawkwarrior]

Some of these sites use the excuse " we are allowed to sell the remainder of the stock of products that contain methylsten." but they keep getting RESTOCKED. I actually had a guy over the phone that works at an online supplement shop tell me that the dea and fda would be at his door if he sold anything illegal. The products in question were methylsten and an alpha 1 max product.

 

[BamBam0319]

trest, dmz, msten are all not banned (yet)... OL still makes trest, Sparta Nutrition is about to release trest, dmz and msten all (should be within a few weeks pending the new company settling some startup business)

:afro:

 

[pogue]

Trest, and methylstenbolone, and dmz(if referencing dymethazine) are absolutely currently banned under both DSHEA and DASCA

They would be illegal under that legislation, but none of them are currently scheduled - which is the big difference. The FDA is severely lacking in the enforcing department, so people can still get away with selling a lot of stuff under the radar or even overtly. It takes a big moral panic like a major sports figure getting a positive drug test for one of the compounds or someone dying for the FDA to usually get off their asses and declare the compounds as adulterated, which is the first step to having them removed from the market.

I guess my reasoning is because I am thinking of it as being weak compared to dbol and anavar which I have used in the past. Which in all honesty is just an assumption. I just find myself questioning the effectiveness of non methylated orals.

Prohormones don't work like steroids. You can't just super dose them and expect to get the same results. The enzymes that convert the prohormones into their active metabolites become saturated and can't convert anymore beyond a certain level. Since we only have one study, and that study indicates 330mg is a dose equivalent to the same results as 300mg of test e a week, I would go with that dose. Going higher is just throwing your money away and wasting it.

I dont believe Trest will ever be banned per se. Because of it being studied and researched as male contraceptive.

Being banned and being scheduled are two different things. Since it's a true AAS it will end up getting scheduled, which still means they can research it and prescribe it to people, but it can't be sold on the open market - even research sites don't touch scheduled compounds because the risk is too high.

So, my question is, what is still legal besides trest and where can I stock up on it at?

 

[VaughnTrue]

They would be illegal under that legislation, but none of them are currently scheduled - which is the big difference. The FDA is severely lacking in the enforcing department, so people can still get away with selling a lot of stuff under the radar or even overtly. It takes a big moral panic like a major sports figure getting a positive drug test for one of the compounds or someone dying for the FDA to usually get off their asses and declare the compounds as adulterated, which is the first step to having them removed from the market.

My understanding of DASCA leads me to a different conclusion ultimately, however I would value your input (and anyone else's if they can show my my line of thinking is incorrect) about this conclusion.

DASCA specifically states:

``(C)(i) Subject to clause (ii), a drug or hormonal substance (other
than estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone)
that is not listed in subparagraph (A) and is derived from, or has a
chemical structure substantially similar to, 1 or more anabolic steroids
listed in subparagraph (A) shall be considered to be an anabolic steroid
for purposes of this Act if--
``(I) the drug or substance has been created or manufactured
with the intent of producing a drug or other substance that
either--
``(aa) promotes muscle growth; or
``(bb) otherwise causes a pharmacological effect
similar to that of testosterone; or
``(II) the drug or substance has been, or is intended to be,
marketed or otherwise promoted in any manner suggesting that
consuming it will promote muscle growth or any other
pharmacological effect similar to that of testosterone.

This to me (in addition to the numerous lawyers I have discussed this with) means that DASCA is considered sweeping legislation, which means that if a compound were to meet any of the requirements in the bills text, it would preemptively be banned/illegal/controlled, akin to the isomer laws surrounding stimulants. The isomer laws surrounding stimulants is intense, and I believe this very closely mirrors those, however the major difference is that these represent a class III drug issue, as opposed to a class I issue (yet both are still very illegal).

So, my question is, what is still legal besides trest and where can I stock up on it at?

If it ain't DHEA, Pregnenolone, estrogen(yuck), or corticosteroid (double yuck) based, it ISNT legal. Unfortunate, but true. I know many on this forum think I am promoting our DHEA isomers/analogues because I work for Hi-Tech, and while that is partially true, it's also because I fully and whole heartedly believe it is the only legal option I have to suggest to people. I am an AAS fan. I have a lot of experience with them, and believe ALL of them should be legal, however my opinions unfortunately do not (currently!) influence legal decisions.

 

[pogue]

My understanding of DASCA leads me to a different conclusion ultimately, however I would value your input (and anyone else's if they can show my my line of thinking is incorrect) about this conclusion.

Has anyone been prosecuted or charged under DASCA yet? If not, then we might just be testing the waters with what comes next.

This to me (in addition to the numerous lawyers I have discussed this with) means that DASCA is considered sweeping legislation, which means that if a compound were to meet any of the requirements in the bills text, it would preemptively be banned/illegal/controlled, akin to the isomer laws surrounding stimulants. The isomer laws surrounding stimulants is intense, and I believe this very closely mirrors those, however the major difference is that these represent a class III drug issue, as opposed to a class I issue (yet both are still very illegal).

Well, what I'm trying to infer is, even if it's illegal, if no one is enforcing the rules, then it doesn't make very much difference. But, that's just the nature of the drug war in general. Everytime one substance is banned, someone will make a slight chemical modification to a similar compound or one with similar actions and sell it under the radar as a research chem until it get's banned. That's why you see synthetic cannabinoids popping up everywhere, stimulants, psychedelics, benzos, etc, etc, etc. It's a cat and mouse game that law enforcement is losing because they can't keep up with the demand and new chemicals that are constantly popping up. As far as DASCA, it seems quite clear that the PH/DS market should be dead, but the nature of the internet with it's large unregulated market place and black market make it easy for people to continue selling stuff regardless, just not as openly as before.

I don't see them continuing on in the future being sold openly as dietary supplements, but the fact that some are still around 10+ years after the initial ban surprises me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI

If it ain't DHEA, Pregnenolone, estrogen(yuck), or corticosteroid (double yuck) based, it ISNT legal. Unfortunate, but true. I know many on this forum think I am promoting our DHEA isomers/analogues because I work for Hi-Tech, and while that is partially true, it's also because I fully and whole heartedly believe it is the only legal option I have to suggest to people. I am an AAS fan. I have a lot of experience with them, and believe ALL of them should be legal, however my opinions unfortunately do not (currently!) influence legal decisions.

Is it demonstrably true that the DHEA analogues such as 1,4 and 1-testosterone precursors are "natural"? Because I just don't see it in any literature and that would make them fall outside of the DSHEA for one. Boldenone, AFAIK, doesn't exist in nature, nor does 1-testosterone, so even if it's based on DHEA, 1,4DHEA does not exist in nature. Even if DASCA says things that are based on DHEA are a-okay, does DASCA override DSHEA in terms of selling stuff that doesn't exist outside of nature?

Anyway, if anyone else wants to chime in with what's still legal, shoot me a PM

 

[pogue]

I'm still waiting to hear what's still legal so I can stock up on it. So far all I know of is trest, which sounds like an excellent compound, and Epiandro, which I'll pass on.

And I'm not looking at VaughnTrue's version of "legal" but what's actually still being sold out in the open.

 

[booneman77]

I'm still waiting to hear what's still legal so I can stock up on it. So far all I know of is trest, which sounds like an excellent compound, and Epiandro, which I'll pass on.

And I'm not looking at VaughnTrue's version of "legal" but what's actually still being sold out in the open.

Trest dmz msten andros

 

[Willtolift]

Trest dmz msten andros

Which makes the best kick start to a test cycle, from best to worst?

 

[pogue]

Which makes the best kick start to a test cycle, from best to worst?

Pure testosterone or a testosterone precursor?

 

[Willtolift]

Pure testosterone or a testosterone precursor?

testosterone enanthate or cypionate.