BigKrabbe
Active member
No worries, feel free to pm me if you'd like. Yes, as I have said more than once I do have before and after sperm analysis' done , and also have a son to prove its efficacy. I was hypogonadal due to coming off of trt.
Any natural test boosters that actually work?
- Thread starter rkmich
- Start date
No worries, feel free to pm me if you'd like. Yes, as I have said more than once I do have before and after sperm analysis' done , and also have a son to prove its efficacy. I was hypogonadal due to coming off of trt.
BigKrabbe
Active member
Also, if you are hypogonadal ash shows a much greater benefit than a marginal 15-20% TT gain!
Invalid Link Removed
This is off of examine.com:
"This aforementioned study used 5g of basic Ashwagandha root powder daily for 6 months and found increases in testosterone in the three tested infertile groups (Asthenozoospermic rose to 121% of baseline, Oligozoospermic to 140% of baseline, and Normozoospermic to 114% of baseline) yet no group surpassed the fertile control groups testosterone level, although normozoospermic was insignificantly different after the end of the trial"
Invalid Link Removed
This is off of examine.com:
"This aforementioned study used 5g of basic Ashwagandha root powder daily for 6 months and found increases in testosterone in the three tested infertile groups (Asthenozoospermic rose to 121% of baseline, Oligozoospermic to 140% of baseline, and Normozoospermic to 114% of baseline) yet no group surpassed the fertile control groups testosterone level, although normozoospermic was insignificantly different after the end of the trial"
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
So... let's take a really jacked up dude, who's not producing sperm, as well as not producing Testosterone. Let's give him an easy ng/dl number : 100ng/dl.
100ng/dl * 140% (the best of the numbers you posted) = 240ng/dl.... Oh sign me the F up!
BigKrabbe
Active member
lol I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not oldguy! Imo though for those of us who will probably never have a good endogenous T output it's pretty great. The other thing that's great about Ash is that let's say you come off trt like i did, your mood goes in the dumps and you feel terrible! ash helps with that too! In order to not derail this thread any further though, I think I'm going to start a thread about ash.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
That's the thing about ashwagandha; even if it doesn't have any significant effect on testosterone levels, it's still a great ingredient with many benefits, some of which are benefits associated with increased testosterone, which can justify its inclusion in a test-booster, as small increases in testosterone in the normal range won't give the benefits of supraphysiological testosterone levels, but something like ashwagandha can still give you benefits such as improved body composition, strength, endurance, mood, etc (there are studies showing all of these things).
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Hahaha! It was semi-both
I use Ashwa, but because of all the adapatogenic data. My point was that % percentages % have to be viewed with a very careful eye. They sound (and look) great - until you realize that even 100% of a really low number, isn't that great. And Low Sperm/Low Test subjects are usually the only ones that respond really dramatically - most 'Low Average' guys that have posted blood work from a variety of different products, usually get about 200 points better. And if you're 800, doubtful you'd see 1000, know what I mean? Heck, I think Lobliner just came out with a new one and did a video and the guy got, yup, a bit over 200 points IIRC. Anyway, I always have KSM-66 on hand, but not for hormone boosting.southpaw23
Well-known member
Exactly. Most people take these thinking they help to add mass. Not really.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Invalid Link Removed
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Invalid Link Removed
thebigt
Legend
Hahaha! It was semi-both
:wavey:great post.
HellAtlantic
Member
What's a good ashwa-only bulk brand to get?
Jiigzz
Legend
Posts like these show how little you actually know. Before you state something like "fadogia is not a root extract", maybe make sure there isn't a root extract first. Otherwise you come across as ignorant and simply attacking for the sake of attacking.
As for your other comments, what are you basing those on exactly?
Ricky10
Well-known member
Thanks for the advice. Ironically, I feel that you know absolutely nothing so it is probably best that we agree to disagree and move on...
Ricky10
Well-known member
So many things came to mind as a response to whatever this is...
Quite honestly though...it does not even deserve one.
Jiigzz
Legend
Perhaps if you stop picking fights on subjects you are less than informed on, I will leave you alone. You attack our product regirtitating something that someone else said, and yet happen to recommend other products which have potential DHT interactions. When questioned, you divert and don't actually respond to the questions.
If you're going to pick fights; back them up because I will call you out.
I don't mind if people don't like all of the products we produce, it is what it is, but you can respectfully question something and I will respond In kind.
jt75
Well-known member
Ironically you gave one
BennyMagoo79
Well-known member
thebigt
Legend
I ran 2 bottles [8 weeks] of m-test that I bought with my own hard earned money, finished around 6 weeks ago.....I am getting ready to buy more and run it for a 2nd time.
I've been on this forum for 10 years and I was 48 back then, I am now 58...in that time I have used 'almost' every test booster to come out.
for me to be buying m-test for a 2nd time is a very high endorsement...the stuff works!!!
Ricky10
Well-known member
Well I don't happen to have my own lab to run tests on stinging nettle so what I say certainly is regurgitation. What Brundel has to say on the subject only serves to reinforce what I already knew before joining AM. If someone specifically asks a broad question about test boosters in the general supplement section such as this; why would I not offer my knowledge/perspective. Just because I point out things for people to consider, it should not be interpreted as an attack and people can make up their own minds. As far as deferring when questioned...I only do so because I already went through a lengthy debate on this back in December which you happened to be a part of. I don't really see the need to go through it again.
Do you even know the value of maintaining optimal levels of DHT? Do you even realize how much 500 mg of a quality Tongat Ali extract costs? Do you even know that the actives of Fadogia that stimulate the Leydig cells of the testes (which is the point of taking this) are only found in the stem? Companies that do offer Fadogia stem extract proudly indicate that as it again costs more than a leaf and root extract, and they want the customer to know this is the real deal.
The other SNS rep that chimed in out of nowhere the other day simply said that the specifics on the Fadogia and TA are not disclosed for competitive reasons which obviously should be taken with a grain of salt. Again...all one has to do is look at the price and it becomes quite clear.
Sorry, it is just the way it is dude and I am in no way attempting to pick fights or post with the intention of being argumentative. I am glad that many people have enjoyed M-Test and I am sure it will continue to be a well selling product. I have nothing against SNS and I have used quite a few of their high quality products and will continue to do so.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I'd like to point out that isolated 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran is not the same as taking a full spectrum Stinging Nettle extract, or just a shjt ton of crushed up roots/leaves. 3,4 Div does nothing to interfere with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme that I could find. It strictly interacts with SHBG. I'm not a fan of anything that minimizes DHT one iota either, but I'd use 3,4 Div no worry's.
Obviously, all of the above doesn't have a ton of human data as far as even SHBG goes - but as far as worrying about reducing DHT, I wouldn't.
Obviously, all of the above doesn't have a ton of human data as far as even SHBG goes - but as far as worrying about reducing DHT, I wouldn't.
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
I'm a HUGE fan of 3,4 divanil.
That said, I have never seen an extract on the market available that is even "mainly" 3,4 divanil. The extracts available are low concentrations of the active.
thebigt
Legend
wouldn't that be something like comparing fenugreek to testofen?
thebigt
Legend
what is your take on it lowering dht by a significant degree?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I wrote about this before (I think - if you are referring to 95% 3,4 Div not being 95%). I think it's a case of the supp industry getting it's facts wrong. While I'm sure it would be no problem getting a 95% purity extract - it seems to me the name came from:
Ergo - "95% 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran"
My opinion anyway.This also further illustrates that 3,4 Div can increase circulating DHT - if it works in humans.
thebigt
Legend
I wrote about this before (I think - if you are referring to 95% 3,4 Div not being 95%). I think it's a case of the supp industry getting it's facts wrong. While I'm sure it would be no problem getting a 95% purity extract - it seems to me the name came from:
Ergo - "95% 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran"
This also further illustrates that 3,4 Div can increase circulating DHT - if it works in humans.
damn..increases-wow!!!!
I like the sound of that!!!
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
I wrote about this before (I think - if you are referring to 95% 3,4 Div not being 95%). I think it's a case of the supp industry getting it's facts wrong. While I'm sure it would be no problem getting a 95% purity extract - it seems to me the name came from:
Ergo - "95% 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran"
This also further illustrates that 3,4 Div can increase circulating DHT - if it works in humans.
Right.
I have never seen a SINGLE extract that is >5-10%.
Is it possible to get 95% pure stuff? I'm sure it is. I'm also sure it would be so expensive we couldn't afford to sell more than a single serving at a time haha
Ricky10
Well-known member
Yes, I appreciate your point. You were also involved in this lengthy discussion that occurred back in December.:wink1:
However...this is directly from the M-Test write up:
Urtica Dioica & DHT:
Urtica Dioica has been shown by researchers to be beneficial for prostate health [8]. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a metabolite of testosterone, can stimulate prostate growth which can lead to a variety of negative issues including prostate problems and hair loss [8]. Urtica Dioica contains components that may inhibit the binding of DHT to various sites around the prostate membrane thereby helping prevent benign prostatic hyperplasia [7]. Also, Urtica Dioica may help inhibit an enzyme known as 5-alpha reductase. This enzyme is responsible for conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT) [5, 8].
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Yea, I don't think it matters (but I'd have to read that rodent study again carefully) - I think the bru-ha-ha years back about "All 3,4 Div products came back no where near 95% purity" was mis-guided, who said the extracts were 95% purity? I think it was "named" what it is, because it displaces sex hormones from SHBG up to 95% - but what do I know?
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
Yea, I don't think it matters (but I'd have to read that rodent study again carefully) - I think the bru-ha-ha years back about "All 3,4 Div products came back no where near 95% purity" was mis-guided, who said the extracts were 95% purity? I think it was "named" what it is, because it displaces sex hormones from SHBG up to 95% - but what do I know?
you're not wrong by any means. it was technically written incorrectly on labels due to labeling laws which did cause confusion in many end users
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Sorry, not familiar with individual products. I assumed the product just had the isolated lignan. A quick Google search showed what looks like a trademarked "Divana-Plex" which is:
Here are the ones that displace DHT:
You'd have to look up the other stuff listed on the label, and see if/how it affects DHT. And since it *does* include two lignans at least (60% and 95% binding affinity), you may still have a net gain? No idea, look up what the other listed lignans do.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Yup, and based on Examine, which tends to be a "go to" source here...this has only been studied in vitro. A study with mice showed an increase in serum testosterone but the mice were also given supplemental testosterone! Every human study they mention showed no affect on testosterone levels. Based on this source, which is kinder than others in regard to stinging nettle or 3-4 Divanil extracts...one must ask themselves how it really has a place in any test booster.Yea, I don't think it matters (but I'd have to read that rodent study again carefully) - I think the bru-ha-ha years back about "All 3,4 Div products came back no where near 95% purity" was mis-guided, who said the extracts were 95% purity? I think it was "named" what it is, because it displaces sex hormones from SHBG up to 95% - but what do I know?
Ricky10
Well-known member
True. Yet I have not come across any studies that indicate that 3-4 Divanil has any human bioavailability as an isolated ligand. Except one source, (LGI supplements) clearly states that it has no human bioavailability. Possibly that can be taken with a grain of salt from LGI, but let's keep in mind they used it in Rehab and then refuted the value of this as a supplement when they came out with The Natural. I tend to question the bioavailability of the other isolated ligands mentioned as well.
It would be somewhat interesting to see if there are any human studies indicating that the other ones are bioavailable. You are certainly a master researcher so maybe you should or could find out. I am not curious enough to spend my time researching that...and I am not quite sure you are either...haha!
thebigt
Legend
ok...on one hand you have studies...
on the other hand you have real live actual results from users....
read the reviews!!!
Ricky10
Well-known member
Oh..I have. Let's not forget that M-Test does contain 4 other extracts that are of high quality and value in a test booster. Despite that, some people have reported a waxing and waning libido while on M-Test. I have also not heard anyone mention a substantial increase in testicular size which is quite profound when taking a high quality Fadogia root extract.
I have been criticized in the past for not referencing studies. Now that I have, I am still being criticized. This is why I have recently refrained from getting into the specifics up until now when I was forced to do so. You can only poke the bear so many times...
thebigt
Legend
4.5 stars out of 5 is a pretty darned good rating, imo.
i ran 2 bottles and am going to run it again, that is my highest rating.....my only complaint is formestane is no longer available-what a fantastic stack that would be!!!!
travbedaman
Member
My nads were definitely bigger while on M-test and after a week off they are back to normal, so there you go.
thebigt
Legend
I hear brian Johnson singing in the background.....
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
thebigt
Legend
Bon Scott!
didn't sing the song I was referring to....BIG BALLS
but gotta give props to bon!!!
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Jiigzz
Legend
For one, you are wrong on the Fadogia Agrestis front - in fact, most of the studies done on the plant involve the stem, not the root, however the constituents are of course also evident in the root. But I digress; the certain glycosides we were looking to target are also isolated from the leaves, as evidenced here: Invalid Link Removed. We specify plant extract, but not isolated for any one compound so it includes a spectrum of glycosides and other actives that contribute to certain effects. These glycosides are, shock horror, also found in Anacyclus - which you advocate for. Would you mind linking me to the actives that are only present in the root that are responsible for leydig cell function? That would be appreciated.
Secondly, we ran with Urtica Diocia because of its binding affinity to SHBG, however this paper may be of interest to you: Invalid Link Removed
This paper is titled: Effect of testosterone supplementation with and without a dual 5α-reductase inhibitor on fat-free mass in men with suppressed testosterone production: a randomized controlled trial.
With another one here: Invalid Link Removed
The outcome may surprise you.
Of course the 'rep' was not going to divulge the suppliers to you - majority of companies won't. This isn't unique to CEL/ SNS, but the industry as a whole. To then imply we are trying to deceive our customers is quite frankly insulting. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but the way you word your posts comes across that way.
I'm happy with the profile of M Test, and will happily back up each component of the profile if challenged.
thebigt
Legend
I know - Big Balls was Bon!
:thumbsup:
Ricky10
Well-known member
Sorry dude..I do apologize for the fact that I meant to say Fadogia STEM extract as opposed to root. I can see why you were confused now. All the research I have ever seen refers to the stem. I could be missing it but the link you provided does not seem to indicate leaf, stem, or root. So this is a link to where I have been led to the impression that Fadogia must be sourced from the STEM...haha!
Invalid Link Removed
As far as your other links, I really don't think we can compare dutasteride (which does happen to have many reports of sexual side effects) to stinging nettle or any of its ligands. There are just too many unanswered questions about what actually occurs when healthy men take these extracts.
Invalid Link Removed
At the end of the day, I am quite sure both of us will still believe what we want to believe so this really serves no purpose. As I said, it is best that we agree to disagree. I am glad that you are proud of the M-Test formula and I think it is great that many people seem to enjoy it! I am truly not the malicious person that you think I am.
Jiigzz
Legend
The link specifies leaf in the methodology for testing. Check the preperation section.
Your primary issue is that 5a reducatse inhibitors have a detrimental effect in some form, of which the compound in the study is one. There are no studies on stinging nettle and muscle, let alone in humans, so we can use a pharmaceutical variant which has a far greater inhibitory effect in humans as a benchmark on whether 5a reductase inhibition can be detrimental to muscle mass. It clearly is not in cases like these.
Are you saying that pharmaceutical has other muscle growth properties? If so, through what mechanism? It specifies that 5a reductase inhibitors demonstrate no loss of muscle growth - which has been your main argument, and now you're saying it isn't valid because it isn't stinging nettle. If you cannot extrapolate, then that's on you.
Jiigzz
Legend
Your argument relies on this link here: Invalid Link Removed which discusses increasing testosterone. Where/ when did we claim it increases testosterone? It binds to SHBG which has been demonstrated - this isn't to do with INCREASING TEST, but making the test you have more available to bind to receptors.
Also his comment here,
Also that dude is firing shots at a company which he screwed over. He clearly had a bias against Omega Sports on writing that piece. That whole thread is people slamming him for being an idiot.
When you cite evidence, make sure it's evidence and not an opinion piece
Also his comment here,
is entirely cr*p. There are a few ingredients, like Cissus, where the lower the standardization, the better the results. This is because the whole plant can sometimes be more effective than what it is standardized for.
Also that dude is firing shots at a company which he screwed over. He clearly had a bias against Omega Sports on writing that piece. That whole thread is people slamming him for being an idiot.
When you cite evidence, make sure it's evidence and not an opinion piece
Ricky10
Well-known member
You asked where I got the idea that Fadogia had to be extracted from the stem, and that is where I got it from. I never said it was pretty. Aside from that, all of the research I have encountered has been with stem extracts only, which you also realize to be true. Aside from whatever that was you posted about a leaf extract.
Now that I have posted sources and explained my position you are still arguing for the sake of arguing. Mind you I only got into this so that you would get out of my &SS. Hate to tell ya... but you are still right up in it.
Avodart :arms:
Jiigzz
Legend
Because you have slandered the product in a poor basis, but when I back up our position you see it as arguing.
If you can't handle the heat being thrown back at you, stop posting mindless cr*p
Jiigzz
Legend
You sure know how to make friends around here
Ricky10
Well-known member
Speaking of friends...this is what one highly regarded (arguably the highest regarded) AM members has to say about stinging nettle extracts.
I would for sure not take urtica/nettle. I know its used in some PCT products but its use is not advised unless you have issues with your prostate.
It blocks androgens from binding to the receptor
Reduces testosterone levels.
Reduces DHT levels.
Its being studied for use in prostate cancer because it reduces DHT and blocks androgen receptors so well. Great maybe if you have cancer. Fn terrible if you dont. Last thing you want is less test, less DHT and while they are being reduced the test and DHT you have is prevented from binding to the receptor anyways.
The misconception lies in UDs ability to raise LH and FSH. Unfortunately this is the bodies way of reacting to the lowering of test levels and blocking of the Androgen receptor. The LH/FSH rise happens BECAUSE test and dht are low.
Quotes from UD studies.
"Nettle extract may lower testosterone by cholesterol reduction."
"Nettle contains compounds such as sterols, flavonoids and polysaccharides that these compounds are antiandrogens and deal with testosterone function."
"Nettle prevents formation of the active form of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone by inhibition the enzyme 5-alpha reductase"
"Nettle root extract inhibits aromatase and thus prevents the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, and also prevents androgen binding to androgen receptors"
----------
Lots of products include DHT inhibitors and antiandrogens.
The last thing you want is an antiandrogen or something that blocks DHT.
Do your homework people. Make sure to individually research each ingredient in each product.
You have to be proactive.