skavenger58
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Any libertarians out here?
What is a libertarian?Any libertarians out here?
Yeah buddy! Glad to see another Libertarian on hereAny libertarians out here?
I dont affiliate myself with any political party, but I love much of Ron Paul's political philosophy and have many "libertarian" views.Not many of us out there haha
I haven't been back to comment sorry on vacation. But yes I don't affiliate with the libertarian party at all. I follow the philosophy of its and read a lot of Milton Friedman and John Locke. I also agree If your using AAS or pro hormones wether you know it or not your supporting voluntary transaction a libertarian capitalist core believe.I think anyone on here using aas or pro hormones has to be at least partially libertarian in ideology whether they know it or not.
Milton Friedman is a good one for sure, sort of pseudo Libertarian though if you read like Murray Rothbard or Hayek they poo poo him a bit. Lol he is an easier read than they are though for sure. Locke and Adam Smith are also excellent, smith from the economic side and Locke with his treatise on government. Alexis de Tocqueville Democracy in America is another good one, though not specifically Libertarian in view point his writings really highlight the difference between our federal government today vs what it was in the late 18th early 19th century.I haven't been back to comment sorry on vacation. But yes I don't affiliate with the libertarian party at all. I follow the philosophy of its and read a lot of Milton Friedman and John Locke. I also agree If your using AAS or pro hormones wether you know it or not your supporting voluntary transaction a libertarian capitalist core believe.
Have you ever looked into Marcus Tullius Cicero?
A lot on the basis of natural law and order Locke referred to him a lot.
I believe in it for myself but not others. Only reason being is with my close observation and experiences over quite a few years people are nowhere near evolved enough to be given so much responsibility and if given it will ultimately result in far too much chaos.A political ideology that believes the government shouldn't be involved in personal or economic matters...
Generally people are good people, and willing to help out their neighbor. Problem is when goverment forces charity on us (welfare, foreign aid, etc...) and takes our money, we have less money to spend and we learn to hate the people that partake in stealing from us. If we were all in a position where we arent slaves to Uncle Sam and we truly are free by means of owning our benefits of our own labor, I think people will generally be more giving. Goverment can go stick their bureaucratic charities, I want to keep more of my own so I can contribute to my own charity of choice.But the humane side of me cannot stand to see people suffer so inevitably I give in when someone says we should help.
Inevitably we have to institute restrictions due to our emotional nature. Because honestly I doubt any of us could watch another family starve to death in front of us. It is in our nature to help. As a result we try to force programs that would prevent that.
So the biggest thing about being a libertarian is finding that balance. Libertarians though are probably the most divided political group. Partially due to how successful we are as we have converts from every other group as such there is a good deal of infighting because some are still attached to certain concepts from their past.
Nothing can exist without a label. No group can stand unified without a name. Without labels America, Democracy, and Freedom could not exist.Generally people are good people, and willing to help out their neighbor. Problem is when goverment forces charity on us (welfare, foreign aid, etc...) and takes our money, we have less money to spend and we learn to hate the people that partake in stealing from us. If we were all in a position where we arent slaves to Uncle Sam and we truly are free by means of owning our benefits of our own labor, I think people will generally be more giving. Goverment can go stick their bureaucratic charities, I want to keep more of my own so I can contribute to my own charity of choice.
There is no such thing as "balance." Everyone will perceive balance differently. The problem is the political party system...they all need to be wiped from the face of the earth (although I do not condone regulations on the individual choice to do so.) Its best for people to stop labeling themselves with political groups. They all become corrupt ses pools by the mega corporations that infiltrate and buy them out, including the Libertarian party. They cause both division and blind party support and ideas become twisted into the agenda that those who finance them want it to be. Remember, Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, boy would he just kill himself if he saw Obama and today general liberals, lol!
You think Libertarians are optimistic and uptopian? I think you have a bit of a misunderstanding of the platform...We want freedom in its rawest form. And in that form things are anything but utopian. They are simply real and have function is all.If you can refute my original comment I'd genuinely be interested to hear that. Because although I like to agree with the heroic and optimistic (maybe even utopian) attitude of Libertarians I can't seem to convince myself (as hard as I try) that it would work in reality as opposed to in our minds.
This one?Ok but you didn't refute my original comment. You don't have to, it's not a challenge, I'm just asking if you could.
Such as what decisions should people have more say in? If we start from the bases that people are not only not ready to be given responsibility most don't even want it.We simply believe that the individual should have more responsibility for their own decisions.
This also would concern me. Lets reduce laws for example and give people the responsibility not to cross the line but say "well if you do, don't worry about it... thats all part of being a libertarian". Then it comes back to which laws to to take away and which do you keep implemented. You also gotta remember the tendency of humans to find loopholes in every system thats created which is why so many laws exists. Even those stupid ones most likely come about due to a loophole being manipulated by a small group. Humans are a waste lolFor good, or for bad.
There is a close resemblance though wouldn't you say? Libertarians has some Anarchists tendencies IMO just less extreme.Don't confuse us with Anarchists.
Yes, thats what YOU believe (and me for the most part) but would you still push this belief IF you knew most people didn't even want it?We simply believe in responsibility of the individual.
It's f#cked because it is corrupt and has no interest in the people only its own agenda. Part of its agenda is to do that very thing "take responsibility for individuals choices". Why would it want a bunch of smart self-thinking individuals sniffing around?The government currently is so bloated it cannot function. Mostly because it has had to take responsibility for individuals choices and thus has countless laws involving people instead of processes.
We can have a name, thats for sure. How about George Washington? Thats a name. Our founding father did not belong to a political party, and is the last president who wasnt a part of one. Its time to vote for ones individual idea's rather than a puppet for a party and have a non-affiliated president again for the first time since GW.Nothing can exist without a label. No group can stand unified without a name. Without labels America, Democracy, and Freedom could not exist.
No way..most people at heart have Anarchist tendencies, including democrats and republicans. They just try to do it more so behind closed doors. Who the hell really wants goverment to step inside your house and tell you whats best for you?There is a close resemblance though wouldn't you say? Libertarians has some Anarchists tendencies IMO just less extreme.
The only line that should not be crossed is the Bill of Rights and Constitution. Its really not that complicated.This also would concern me. Lets reduce laws for example and give people the responsibility not to cross the line but say "well if you do, don't worry about it... thats all part of being a libertarian". Then it comes back to which laws to to take away and which do you keep implemented. You also gotta remember the tendency of humans to find loopholes in every system thats created which is why so many laws exists. Even those stupid ones most likely come about due to a loophole being manipulated by a small group. Humans are a waste lol
Call me ignorant but since when do "governments step inside your house and tell you whats best for you"?No way..most people at heart have Anarchist tendencies, including democrats and republicans. They just try to do it more so behind closed doors. Who the hell really wants goverment to step inside your house and tell you whats best for you?
First of all, they spy on us, so yes they are inside our house. Second of all, lets say I want to grow a bunch of pot plants and own some automatic firearms I bought from some neighbors and maybe a rocket launcher? They will be here kicking my door down if they find out. This is just an example of over-reaching goverment. I havent committed a crime or violated anybodies liberties, but these new laws make me to be a criminal.Call me ignorant but since when do "governments step inside your house and tell you whats best for you"?
With regards to the similarities I stand by that but my caveat is I have not studied anything from left or right apart from basic definitions (because I see no point, the whole "I am this" "I am that" means sweat f*ckall in reality)
But we already have those people anyways. The war on drugs has been a complete failure. Gun control hasnt stopped criminals from getting arms, it has only made innocent people criminals and too weak to defend themselves. Look how there were 44 shootings in strict gun control zone in Chicago just this weekend. People are helpless, and cops cant and dont stop crime, they just try to solve them. The war on drugs makes gangs powerful and the black-market is thriving more than ever. We spend billions and trillions of tax dollars and it hasnt worked, so how do we defend the laws that are supposed to work? Its been a total failure, its time to end it and move on.Right, so what that comment actually meant was the system is one of control over the people? And thats what this whole argument is about, at least from me as in a system of control is actually REQUIRED otherwise you will have a load of dumb f#cks doing dumb sh#t like growing drugs, buying guns and playing silly games with rocket launchers. Right?
No, Im not saying forget control and laws. The laws we need to protect are the Bill of Rights, not people from themselves. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If you want to do drugs, go ahead its not my problem. But if violate another individuals liberty in any way such as stealing to get it, then you have to take responsibility for that through due process.I don't really understand your point exactly.
Oh ok you expanded your post a little more.
But what EXACTLY are you saying, I'm clearly saying a system on control is required to keep people in line all the way from small things like not punching every person who annoys you to bigger things like drugs. You are saying? Forget control and laws and give people more responsibility over their actions?
Believe it or not Laws control people a heck of a lot as opposed to the small isolated cases you bring up.
Whether or not you want a label, you have a label. If you support gay marriage, feminism, immigration, socialist safety net policies, and so on you will undoubtedly be called a liberal whether you want the label or not. You are aligned with the liberals, their parties, and their candidates whether you want to be or not. That is basic pattern recognition and as humans we rely on that far more than people realize for survival and success.We can have a name, thats for sure. How about George Washington? Thats a name. Our founding father did not belong to a political party, and is the last president who wasnt a part of one. Its time to vote for ones individual idea's rather than a puppet for a party and have a non-affiliated president again for the first time since GW.
You know, the Libertarian Party is actually looking to endorse Jesse Ventura for president...Jesse has one condition, that he is not labeled a Libertarian and will not partake in any party.
The problem is, politicians trap us in political parties, thats why we never have any real change (or restoration that is.)
You know, I do love alot of Libertarian ideas and love Ron Paul for the most part, didnt want you to think Im actual anti-Libertarian. Im just anti Libertarian party, or any party from yesterday or tomorrow, even if they start out good. Every party becomes corrupt and dangerous to our Liberties. I would have voted for Ron Paul should he ran as an independent, rather than the Republican ticket. If Rand Paul dumped those Republicrats (yeah, there is no difference between both parties) Id consider voting for him too.
What they eat would be a good place to start. What they smoke. Whether or not they have insurance. This is why I am anti-socialist safety net systems. Let someone be free to choose what they want, but free to suffer the consequences of their choices. Suffering begets knowledge and some shall turn that knowledge into wisdom. Society has become a fast paced illusion where the average citizen of this nation is actually a barely functional cog with little self awareness and presence. This is why more often than not criminals who make it big get a following. It is someone who is aware of themselves, follows their own destiny, and ultimately are more humane than even the kindest priest or relief aid worker. People today are driven purely by biological chemical reactions but have convinced themselves via social constructs that it is actually an advanced concept of "freedom".Such as what decisions should people have more say in? If we start from the bases that people are not only not ready to be given responsibility most don't even want it.
I can concede that the average individual does have a great deal more power than they surmise they do. Especially if you continually improve yourselves. As far as I am concerned becoming bi-lingual or tri-lingual can be more productive in regards to granting you favor and power than your average associates degree.Also, I think we have quite a bit of power and responsibility already its just that people don't take it and in many cases don't want to take it, rather let the state (someone else) handle it. Thats why I originally said it'll be good for me but not others. "We" are a tiny group of people IMO. So it makes no sense to change this current aspect. I'm even arguing against my own wishes here, thats how nonsensical it would be to give people "more responsibility" but then again it may depend on what this "more" means. It implies some but not all, and who would determine which is to be given and which is not? I cant wrap my head around it. Either be a totally autonomous individual and seek sovereignty or live under the state (it has its pro's in some cases I guess).
Stiffer penalties for some things is how we counter that. Complex laws make loopholes, simple laws do not create them as there are no "but-if" situations. Such as the punishment for murder being death instead of long imprisonment that costs the nation vasts amounts of money. What is the average yearly incarceration fee for a super max? $65,000? Why do we have so many variations of murder? Why do we have to give a "Life sentence plus 20 years" in order to prevent parole? Why do we may what could amount to well over a couple million dollars to keep a scumbag alive for 40 years until he kicks the can?This also would concern me. Lets reduce laws for example and give people the responsibility not to cross the line but say "well if you do, don't worry about it... thats all part of being a libertarian". Then it comes back to which laws to to take away and which do you keep implemented. You also gotta remember the tendency of humans to find loopholes in every system thats created which is why so many laws exists. Even those stupid ones most likely come about due to a loophole being manipulated by a small group. Humans are a waste lol
We tend to. Less taxes should be collected by the federal government and its size should be tiny. As a result the desire to participate in any safety programs should become an individual choice and investment.There is a close resemblance though wouldn't you say? Libertarians has some Anarchists tendencies IMO just less extreme.
Today most people are afraid to want it. Individual sovereignty carries with it fear as you are responsible for everything.Yes, thats what YOU believe (and me for the most part) but would you still push this belief IF you knew most people didn't even want it?
I think that is the point. Libertarians are kind of the thorn in the side of the government at the current time. We started off tiny a few years back but have grown vary rapidly and are the first "third party" capable of actually carrying weight with its words.It's f#cked because it is corrupt and has no interest in the people only its own agenda. Part of its agenda is to do that very thing "take responsibility for individuals choices". Why would it want a bunch of smart self-thinking individuals sniffing around?
Does the libertarian corner share your views on abandoning health care for those who don't deserve it?What they eat would be a good place to start. What they smoke. Whether or not they have insurance. This is why I am anti-socialist safety net systems. Let someone be free to choose what they want, but free to suffer the consequences of their choices. Suffering begets knowledge and some shall turn that knowledge into wisdom. Society has become a fast paced illusion where the average citizen of this nation is actually a barely functional cog with little self awareness and presence. This is why more often than not criminals who make it big get a following. It is someone who is aware of themselves, follows their own destiny, and ultimately are more humane than even the kindest priest or relief aid worker.
Well exactly so why would you be all about pushing an idea that doesn't suit the vast majority?Today most people are afraid to want it. Individual sovereignty carries with it fear as you are responsible for everything.
Well we have already extended life by quite a way with medicine and technology but what do you mean by "indefinitely"? Live forever, 10 years longer on average, 100 years longer on average?Here is a question for you. What happens when we can extend life indefinitely? Who deserves it? Every human? Surely that would collapse the species. How do we judge who should be allowed longer lifespans? Or do we simply let the powerful take it as the the way of nature and follow the ideologies of survival of the fittest? Because currently we do not follow those ideologies and it's effects are showing in the current selection we see at the bottom of society. But is it possible to maintain this course with such power in our hands?
Or it will destroy itself before it even gets close to that thats another topic though really.Eventually humanity is going to have people with perfect genetics, cybernetic augmented eyes that give them vast benefits over normal eyes, implants that contain tiny nanites that can be released into the bloodstream to help in a trauma situation, brains that have had their hardware upgraded a bit with expanded storage.
Who decided that anyone deserves healthcare? It is a service. A product. Not natural in anyway ergo no one is entitled to it naturally. Though they can seek it and invest in it to better their chances of survival and increase the chances of a successful genetic lineage.Does the libertarian corner share your views on abandoning health care for those who don't deserve it?
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Ah, I'm british, we pay taxes so here we all deserve it since we pay for it. I realise its not the same elsewhere. So I haven't even thought that through.Who decided that anyone deserves healthcare? It is a service. A product. Not natural in anyway ergo no one is entitled to it naturally. Though they can seek it and invest in it to better their chances of survival and increase the chances of a successful genetic lineage.
Its not whether or not people deserve health care, its whether or not people have a right to other people's services and whether or not people have a right to take from others to pay for it.Does the libertarian corner share your views on abandoning health care for those who don't deserve it?
I think your just speaking the truth about reality.Whether or not you want a label, you have a label. If you support gay marriage, feminism, immigration, socialist safety net policies, and so on you will undoubtedly be called a liberal whether you want the label or not. You are aligned with the liberals, their parties, and their candidates whether you want to be or not. That is basic pattern recognition and as humans we rely on that far more than people realize for survival and success.
The concept of a political party are people with similar labels earned as individuals meeting up with others in order to give their argument enough mass to make a difference. You act like it is some kind of club.
Pattern recognition is a biznitch. It works both for and against us. Just as fight or flight does sometimes. Though with proper training you can gain control of it just as you can the other natural responses we have.I think your just speaking the truth about reality.
I dont mind people who are gay getting married, but I hate Obama and democrats. I love to cling to my guns but I hate Bush and Republicans too!
Problem is people are prejudiced.
I so often after criticize Obama during political debates in my personal life, people counter by attacking Bush. Im like what? Did you know me when Bush was president! I wanted him to rot in hell!
Who decided you should pay those taxes? What if you want to stop and are willing to give up the benefits to have control of your money. To have sovereignty over your energy contribution to society. But we both know that won't stand over there anymore. Britain as well as several other European nations are slowly becoming examples in that regard. (France, Greece)Ah, I'm british, we pay taxes so here we all deserve it since we pay for it. I realise its not the same elsewhere. So I haven't even thought that through.
Exactly. Who made someone the king of my potential energy contributions and withdrawals from society?Its not weather or not people deserve health care, its whether or not people have a right to other people's services and whether or not people have a right to take from others to pay for it.
People dont have the right to other people's services and they don't have a right to force others to pay for it either.
The system that controls the laws thus controls the people. Yes, those people again. But you already knew that.Who decided you should pay those taxes?
I'm not willing to stop because I'd be f#cked. And if I had the choice to opt in or opt out the benefits outweigh the cons (although this is slowly changing due to other reasons).What if you wan't to stop and are willing to give up the benefits to have control of your money. To have sovereignty over your energy contribution to society.
This brings us BACK to the circular point of being for or against a system that controls the way things work. You seem to be against it in many of your comments, but then again, hold on, no you're not, your sort of for it sort of against it, a bit here and a bit there. I'm not trying to be rude but you make me no clearer on your actual stance.Exactly. Who made someone the king of my potential energy contributions and withdrawals from society?
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