Androgel application (revisited)

lifter4

New member
Most of the information I've found about Androgel outside of this site suggests rubbing the gel into the skin until the area is sticky/dry. But I've seen several posts here suggesting that it's better to lightly rub it on and just let it absorb on its own.

What's the rationale behind this? Wouldn't some of the gel absorb and some of it evaporate? It would seem that rubbing it in until it disappears wouldn't give it a chance to go anywhere but until the skin.

Thoughts?
 
lifter4 said:
Most of the information I've found about Androgel outside of this site suggests rubbing the gel into the skin until the area is sticky/dry. But I've seen several posts here suggesting that it's better to lightly rub it on and just let it absorb on its own.

What's the rationale behind this? Wouldn't some of the gel absorb and some of it evaporate? It would seem that rubbing it in until it disappears wouldn't give it a chance to go anywhere but until the skin.

Thoughts?
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When I was using Androgel I did not rub in just spread it over large area. At first I was wasting lots of gel, it was falling off on the floor.
Then I divided each packet into 4-5 portions.
I put gell everywhere I could reach, except genitals and area in close vicinity. My last test on 10grams of Androgel
TT=932 ng/dL(241-827)
 
When I was using Androgel I did not rub in just spread it over large area. At first I was wasting lots of gel, it was falling off on the floor.
Then I divided each packet into 4-5 portions.
I put gell everywhere I could reach, except genitals and area in close vicinity. My last test on 10grams of Androgel
TT=932 ng/dL(241-827)


I thought spreading the androgel over large surface area also raises your E2 and dht generally....Not that this is a bad thing necessarily...Is this true??? I suppose it would not be true as much if you were getting TT levels in the 900's. Maybe I'll try. I've been rubbing 4 pumps=5g on one shoulder and the 2 pumps=2.5g on the other shoulder...All in the morning Total=7.5g gel...You're talking about shoulders, stomach, upper arms,...etc. (minus scrotum) I presume? What was your (free test/e2/dht/shbg/progesterone)...numbers looking like on that dose??
 
willis3 said:
When I was using Androgel I did not rub in just spread it over large area. At first I was wasting lots of gel, it was falling off on the floor.
Then I divided each packet into 4-5 portions.
I put gell everywhere I could reach, except genitals and area in close vicinity. My last test on 10grams of Androgel
TT=932 ng/dL(241-827)


I thought spreading the androgel over large surface area also raises your E2 and dht generally....Not that this is a bad thing necessarily...Is this true??? I suppose it would not be true as much if you were getting TT levels in the 900's. Maybe I'll try. I've been rubbing 4 pumps=5g on one shoulder and the 2 pumps=2.5g on the other shoulder...All in the morning Total=7.5g gel...You're talking about shoulders, stomach, upper arms,...etc. (minus scrotum) I presume? What was your (free test/e2/dht/shbg/progesterone)...numbers looking like on that dose??
Click to expand...

On that dose I have testeted only for:
Short test, Lab Corp, October 2006
Total Estrogens------------------------------ ---260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
estrone, serum------------------------------- ----78 pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- ----27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
Progesterone---------------------------------- ----1.4 ng/dL (0.3-1.2) Milers book, page 242(1.5-2.0)
Pregnenolone---------------------------------- ----23 ng/dL (10–200) LE’s Optimal Range: 100–170 ng/dL
Total Testosterone-------------------------- ---932 ng/dL (241-827) LE’s Optimal Range 500–827 ng/dL
Free Testosterone--------------------------- --36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1) LE’s Optimal Range: 18–26.5 pg/mL
DHT (dihydrotestosterone)--------------- ---226 ng/dL (30-85) LE’s Optimal Range: 30–50 ng/dL
 
Just read the insert you don't rub in Androgel and if you don't spread it over a large area your levels will not go up.
Do shots most end up on them anyway.
 
Androgel Application

Can someone please post the "once and for all" optimal way for the application of Androgel? There is so much discussion on this topic and the insert is not very specific.

Some questions I need help with:

*Should sites be rotated?
*Define apply: Should it be rubbed until dry or left in a thick layer?
*Applying it and washing the hands seems like a lot goes down the drain. Should something be used to apply it?
*I've applied it to the upper arms and shoulders for a year with good results - now absorption seems to have diminished. Total T has dropped from 800 to 250. Free T from 2.5 to 0.8. Is it a problem from using the same site for so long? Test sample was drawn just before the application of the days dose.
*How important is the total surface area? One might think that higher surface area would increase absorption - this may or may not be true.

Perhaps the moderator can clear up these issues. Thanks for the insight.
 
Yea 250ng for a baseline level is no surprise, the blood draw should of been done 2 hours after applying it to get a peak level.


I believe it should be rubbed in until sticky, most of it ends up on your arm not your hand because the hand is a smaller surface area, just use your palm and not your fingers as it can get stuck inbetween your fingers and goto waste.

The surface area should be big enough so that you dont get frosting. And application sites shouldnt need to be rotated.
 
On the time of draw - I thought the blood levels are supposed to be more stable for the 24 hour period. At least the package insert indicates so. Is there really that big of a peak/trough variation with this product? Does anyone apply twice daily?
 
nuker said:
On the time of draw - I thought the blood levels are supposed to be more stable for the 24 hour period. At least the package insert indicates so. Is there really that big of a peak/trough variation with this product? Does anyone apply twice daily?
Click to expand...

Yes there is androgel will peak in 2 hrs and Testim peaks in about 6 hrs.

In this link for what it's worth are charts for all kinds meds.
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nuker said:
Thanks for the insight on this.
Can applying the product twice daily be beneficial?
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I have talked to guys that did put half there dose on in the morning and 12 hrs later. They said they did this because they felt bad 12 hrs. later. If I put it on later at night I can't sleep feel to up.
 
Other than your experience, I don't see any real negative. Anyone, correct me if you know of a problem with b.i.d. dosing. I do feel down at the end of the day. I'm really surprised at the ups-and-downs I have with the gel. I thought it would be more even.

I'll give it a try and see how I do.

Thanks to everyone for the input.
 
Dr. John I cut and pasted it and the charts are a mess.
You need to open this in Adobe Reader. Last week when I clicked on it it opened fine. Now when I click on the link it ask me where I want to open it. In my downloads so when you open it from download manager it will have a pop up saying it needs to know where the site is. You then need to select "the program from a list" hit ok then select Adobe Reader and it opens.
 
On the daily fluctuation - Does any know the amount of the natural daily fluctuation of testosterone? When does it peak and what is the min./max.? Mine would be an 880 to 250 with the q.d. dosing.
 
Dr. John said:
What's this say? I cannot access it.
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page 4 of 7
Figure 4. 24-Hour serum testosterone (T) levels in hypogonadal men on day 90 of therapy with 5 grams or 10 grams of
1% AndroGel with the Androderm 5-mg patch. Adapted from: Proceedings of the Endocrine Society Andropause
Consensus Conferences 2000-2001, The Endocrine Society Continuing Medical Education Services, January 2002.12
===========================================
Problem I see with this chart is:
it is chart of stabilized (90 days) patient.
T levels at zero hour should be exactly the same as at 24 hour but they are not.
 

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  • T levels on Androgel-24hrs.jpg
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I just seem to be running low at the end of the day with a 5gm application in the morning. I get anxious, moody, fatigued, etc.. Maybe a higher am dose is needed?
 
nuker said:
I just seem to be running low at the end of the day with a 5gm application in the morning. I get anxious, moody, fatigued, etc.. Maybe a higher am dose is needed?
Click to expand...

5gm never worked for me.
10gm was much better.
Did not made good blood tests but I think my correct dose was ether the 10gm or possibly 9gm.
When I used 7.5gm it was already not enough.

I do not get anxious or moody with short time fluctuations,
but when I was low on T for long time I had a depression, bad thoughts, bad life.

Theoretically best,
get Quest blood test, draw blood at Quest, do
(Free Bioavailable and Total testosterone)
adjust dose so FreeT or BAT are at max of range, let the other be.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Do not want to say it to loud, but proper dose of T is more important to me from lack of depression point of view, sex becomes secondary consideration.
 
What is the consensus on the optimal time for the blood test?

I was going for the end of the 24 hour period because that was when I felt lousy.
 
nuker said:
What is the consensus on the optimal time for the blood test?

I was going for the end of the 24 hour period because that was when I felt lousy.
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If you are Dr John patient then you have to do it his way.

If you want to find your minimum level while aplying regularly your daily dose of Androgel (for at least a month) then you should do it at the time when you normaly apply Androgel but draw blood before applying gel.
----------------------------------------
That translates to: end of the 24 hour period.
 
My doctor gave no guidance on when to have the blood drawn. (Not Dr. John) I got the one test with the 250/0.8 result and he asked it to be repeated. Also tested thyroid. I did it this week - we'll see what the outcome is and how it changes the treatment plan.
Thanks for the posts.....
 
Dr. John said:
Just apply the gel with a good sweep of the hand. The surface must remain wet for the T to move into the skin. I think guys often make way too much of applying the stuff. Just put it on.
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I have been doing this for afew days now and I noticed yesterday in the sun that the whole application area was frosted.
 
Dr. John said:
No longer true. The movement amongst the Top Thought Leaders in my field is toward TD's.
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I would rather read some substantiated journal abstracts than a nebulous claim about "thought leaders". This is the second time you've trotted out the "thought leader" BS with out substantiation in peer reviewed abstracts. How do we know the true "thought leaders" are not those who are evaluating SERMs? There is a big difference between clinical practice and "thought leaders" who expand the state of the art.

TD's are outrageously expensive. Money has been poured into promoting TD because of outrageous profits. TD's cost as much as a car payment, cause testicular atrophy, suppress the HPT axis and can send e2 higher.
 
nuker said:
My doctor gave no guidance on when to have the blood drawn. (Not Dr. John) I got the one test with the 250/0.8 result and he asked it to be repeated. Also tested thyroid. I did it this week - we'll see what the outcome is and how it changes the treatment plan.
Thanks for the posts.....
Click to expand...

Got the results from another blood test. Total T was 190 and free T was 0.3. This is on one 5 gram pack per day.
 
Thanks for all the good input and suggestions. My doc just increased the dose to 10gm. I hope it works...
 
nuker said:
Thanks for all the good input and suggestions. My doc just increased the dose to 10gm. I hope it works...
Click to expand...

nuker said:
Got the results from another blood test. Total T was 190 and free T was 0.3. This is on one 5 gram pack per day.
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#1 you have other than low t problems.
#2 keep on using 10grams but most likely it will not work, it is better than 5grams
#3 get tested for thyroid and adrenals, people with this problems end up also with absorption problems.
#4 Testosterone wise you are probably would be better off taking 50mg Testosterone Cypionate 200mg/mL every three days. Use 28ga needle, subQ into belly fat close but not too close to the navel.
Also 250IU HCG Novarel on the days you do not have a T.
Retest within 6 weeks of new established routine, tweak t dose.
Adrenals
Thyroid (freeT3)
testosterone
estrogens
glucose/insulin


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I would like to report to everyone, that for the past 2 weeks, I have not been rubbing in my testogel, and I dont know if it is for that reason or because its winter where I am now. But by night I feel like I have crashed a bit. On the testogel website it says not to rub in the gel but the testim website says to rub in testim, I think whats good for one is good for the other and I am assuming its better to rub it in.
 
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