Unanswered 5 alpha-R, DHT and comparison to Masteron/Proviron, taking proviron sublingually?

CroLifter

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I have been thinking for some time now about an impact of dht and dht like substances on our body, mood, libido etc. Also, the impact those substances have in a cycle, their desired and undesired effects.

I for one would be interested in increasing my DHT levels.

As far as I know, there are no known ways of increasing 5 alpha reductase activity within the body as there is for increasing aromatase activity, such as high doses of hcg, beer, being fat and so on.

Injectable T seems to be converting to DHT at a lower rate than either endogenous T (as there is high concentration of 5 ar within the testicles) and especially than transdermal, or even scrotal T creams, as there is also high concentration of 5 ar in the skin.

Some people report feeling more of a boost with a cream. Perhaps it is the dht? Likely.
Also, some people using injectable T for trt report not feeling good, and then they list their bloodwork showing low, or low-normal dht levels.

So what are the options for increasing dht if so far we are only using injectable testosterone and not dht like substances?
Well, the first option would be to add in a dose of scrotal T cream everyday. Another option would be to use dht gel itself, or perhaps, an injectable form of dht.

Masteron and proviron are the closest available substitutes for dht, but they are NOT dht. They are often called dht's, but they are merely dht derivatives.

For example, masteron is often quoted to be the closest thing to dht. Well, the first big difference is that masteron is 2 alpha methyl dht and therefore it retains anabolic potency within the muscle.
HOWEVER, even though masteron has some potency in the muscle (or should i say, it remains masteron within the muscle and is not deactivated and turned into other metabolites), it has SIGNIFICANTLY lower binding affinity for androgen receptor than natural DHT.

If it retained the androgen receptor binding affinity of natural dht, it would be much more potent than testosterone at building lean tissue, which is obviously not the case,

Natural DHT is said to have binding affinity about 3x that of the testosterone. So natural DHT is a much more potent androgen, and if it wasnt deactivated in the muscle, it would be extremely potent at building tissue, similar to trenbolone (which is said to to bind to androgen receptor at 3x the affinity of testosterone).

Proviron is 1 alpha methyl dht, and because of that, has slight oral bioavailability. But it is still NOT dht. It also has MUCH lower binding affinity for the androgen receptor than natural dht.

So what do we know so far? Natural DHT is much more potent androgen than either proviron or masteron.
Testosterone itself is considered more androgenic and produces more virilization in women than either proviron or masteron (masteron was "safer" for women with breast cancer as at the same dose it produced significantly less virilization than testosterone ester), because of its conversion to dht, which is more potent androgen than either masteron or proviron.

Dht, proviron and masteron have similar benefits. They all somewhat antagonize estrogen and prolactin receptor and therefore counter some estrogenic sides. How does dht do that? Well, i will take a guess and use occam's razor, and say it merely binds to the receptor occupying space and preventing estradiol from binding.

They are often quoted to be AI's. They are potentially slight ai's. They will not lower concentration of estradiol significantly, although some of the dht/mast/proviron might bind with aromatase and therefore occupy space reserved for testosterone, in effect lowering the concentration of estradiol.
But they have double action. Other than just binding with aromatase enzyme (i dont know how high the affinity is compared to aromatase inhibitors), they also antagonize the estrogen receptor itself, providing more of an anti estrogenic effect than just stopping T->E2 conversion.

So some of my ongoing quests are:

1) Finding a way, if possible, of increasing 5 alpha reductase enzyme concentration in the body so that more of the injected testosterone is converted to dht.

2) To find out whether someone ever used injectable androstanolone (natural dht) and what were the results?
Also people who used the DHT gel, did they notice positive results in terms of mood, libido, strength and muscle hardness (loss of subQ water)?

3) When and if i get my hands on either injectable or transdermal natural DHT, compare its effects to both masteron and proviron.

What are your thoughts on this?
 

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Yes Masteron and Proviron are not as androgenic as DHT. Many people get hair loss from high DHT and masteron doesnt affect them that much. But they are the closest DHT derivatives to resemble DHT in terms of effects. You can increase your DHT by lowering your estrogen. If you lower your estrogen you will have more Test and more DHT. But why do you want to increase DHT in the first place? Its not a very favorable hormone. It will potentially cause hair loss and prostate enlargement like no other. Also the physique changes are minimal if any at all. For example using test with and without finasteride doesnt have any significant different. Most people claim masteron and proviron both increase mood lipido and hardness and i believe the hardness increase is much more prominent than that of DHTs. Using an AI to lower estrogen and increase DHT isnt wise as you will crash your E2 which is very unhealthy. If someone wants to increase his DHT, using dht cream is the most obvious and effective way, but increasing dht is pointless to me when there are better things to give you what you looking for
 
bad rad

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20mg Test Cyp and 200mg DHEA daily gave me high normal testosterone and E2 but overly high DHT and DHEA (duh). I remember shedding worse than normal but felt really good overall.
 

CroLifter

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Yes Masteron and Proviron are not as androgenic as DHT. Many people get hair loss from high DHT and masteron doesnt affect them that much. But they are the closest DHT derivatives to resemble DHT in terms of effects. You can increase your DHT by lowering your estrogen. If you lower your estrogen you will have more Test and more DHT. But why do you want to increase DHT in the first place? Its not a very favorable hormone. It will potentially cause hair loss and prostate enlargement like no other. Also the physique changes are minimal if any at all. For example using test with and without finasteride doesnt have any significant different. Most people claim masteron and proviron both increase mood lipido and hardness and i believe the hardness increase is much more prominent than that of DHTs. Using an AI to lower estrogen and increase DHT isnt wise as you will crash your E2 which is very unhealthy. If someone wants to increase his DHT, using dht cream is the most obvious and effective way, but increasing dht is pointless to me when there are better things to give you what you looking for
I would just like some more benefits of dht, like i had while taking masteron while not taking anything but test. Also, i like to use bioidentical compounds. Didnt see any muscle gains over test only when adding masteron but got extra kick in the gym, aggression and energy.
So i figured why not just get that from the downstream conversion of testosterone?

@bad rad interesting but i wouldnt say dhea had anything to do with it. You just may have higher concentration of 5 alpha reductase than most people, and that is kinda my point. It is definitely majorly influenced by genetics but also potentially by other factors. I am trying to find out what those other factors might be.

dht gel is the obvious option it seems.
 
bad rad

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Upping the DHEA from 50 to 200 doubled my DHT based on blood work.
 

CroLifter

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Upping the DHEA from 50 to 200 doubled my DHT based on blood work.
Ok so now this is interesting.

Dhea usually has a tendency to increase estrogen in men. Never heard of it increasing dht.

You kept testosterone dose the same, just to confirm? And your total T and estradiol numbers didnt change significantly when going from 50-200mg dhea?
 
ItalOne

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It’s a bunch of hype and a marketing ploy since all the effective drugs are banned.
They label it as if building blocks of masculinity. It’s obviously important for a developing young body. But should we all be supplementing massive amounts of it, or we won’t have muscles and be manly.? All the body builders of the past did just fine without so many pure DHT products. As you get older it has many negative effects like hair loss and enlarged prostate. Also I’ve never had a enhanced sense of well being or enhanced libido from running multiple masteron cycles at 1000’mg week. I am not saying Its not beneficial at all. But it honestly doesn’t do very much for muscle building.
 

CroLifter

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It’s a bunch of hype and a marketing ploy since all the effective drugs are banned.
They label it as if building blocks of masculinity. It’s obviously important for a developing young body. But should we all be supplementing massive amounts of it, or we won’t have muscles and be manly.? All the body builders of the past did just fine without so many pure DHT products. As you get older it has many negative effects like hair loss and enlarged prostate. Also I’ve never had a enhanced sense of well being or enhanced libido from running multiple masteron cycles at 1000’mg week. I am not saying Its not beneficial at all. But it honestly doesn’t do very much for muscle building.
I agree, it doesnt do much if anything for muscle building, as it is deactivated in the muscle tissue.

i was more interested in the mood aspect. People report various effects on epiandro (which allegedly turns to dht, or acts like it, cant remember), some feel horny, dome feel anxious etc.

I would like to compare bioidentical DHT with masteron and proviron in terms of effects, side effects etc.

In that case i think a dht gel is the the best option as i really dont believe those vials labeled as "dht heptanoate" or "stanolone base" to really contain stanolone as it is an obscure substance not uswd in bodybuilding.

edit: not saying it is better than mast or proviron. I want to experiment.
Me personally, proviron and masteron were very different.

proviron - increase in libifo and well-being, positive attitude, loss of water retention

Masteron - increase in strength (actual numbers lifted) and insane aggression in the gym, a bit short fused, no increase in libido and no hardness/vascularity whatosoever, anxiety and panic attacks at 300mg +
 
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ItalOne

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I agree, it doesnt do much if anything for muscle building, as it is deactivated in the muscle tissue.

i was more interested in the mood aspect. People report various effects on epiandro, some feel horny, dome feel anxious etc.

i for one would like to compare pure dht with masteron.
In that case i think a dht gel is the the best option as i really dont believe those vials labeled as "dht heptanoate" or "stanolone base" to really contain stanolone as it is an obscure substance not uswd in bodybuilding.
I didn’t get a enhanced libido from multiple high dosed masteron cycles, nothing! I got slightly better erection on the old stanodrol products dosed at a gram a day. Nothing like Tren or Trest.
 

CroLifter

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I didn’t get a enhanced libido from multiple high dosed masteron cycles, nothing! I got slightly better erection on the old stanodrol products dosed at a gram a day. Nothing like Tren or Trest.
i was at the strongest while using masteron. Also, i would wake up in the middoe of the night as if i was zapped by electricity, would jump out of bed and be in a pool of sweat.

but no libido boost whatsoever, an no muscle hardness.

also constant panic attacks and extreme anxiety at any dose over 200mg per week, 300 + and i was walking around the house couldnt calm myself down. Feeling of imminent terror, real terror, not just Had some really dark gruesome dreams that i was genuinely concerned about. Psychopathic too, and i am not a psychopath (am i?).
Seriously, dreaming about killing a loved one and not feeling anything.

I would wake up so disturbed and felt as if i was detached. At times feeling like i was about to lose my mind. No such thing with proviron.
Really crazy when you consider that people say mast is mild.

Especially those psychopathic dreams and twitching/waking up in the puddle of sweat at night. And it wasnt hot, 15 - 20C at the time.

Some people suggested it wasnt masteron (eq perhaps? Or who knows what?) Or that the powder was spiked with some tren.
 
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bad rad

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Yes, same test dose both times. OTC tabs and I could feel a surge in something after I started doing it. I assumed it was the increase in DHEA levels but those were basically the same. My DHT shot up instead. Supposedly you can only convert so much DHEA to E2 and at lower dosing I felt more E2 symptoms but if you do high dosing it overwhelms the enzymes and the other paths are preferenced, ie high DHT.

I'm in my 40's though so maybe an effect.
 
Beau

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Yes, same test dose both times. OTC tabs and I could feel a surge in something after I started doing it. I assumed it was the increase in DHEA levels but those were basically the same. My DHT shot up instead. Supposedly you can only convert so much DHEA to E2 and at lower dosing I felt more E2 symptoms but if you do high dosing it overwhelms the enzymes and the other paths are preferenced, ie high DHT.

I'm in my 40's though so maybe an effect.
40's - I wish ... I remember those days ...
 
ItalOne

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i was at the strongest while using masteron. Also, i would wake up in the middoe of the night as if i was zapped by electricity, would jump out of bed and be in a pool of sweat.

but no libido boost whatsoever, an no muscle hardness.

also constant panic attacks and extreme anxiety at any dose over 200mg per week, 300 + and i was walking around the house couldnt calm myself down. Feeling of imminent terror, real terror, not just Had some really dark gruesome dreams that i was genuinely concerned about. Psychopathic too, and i am not a psychopath (am i?).
Seriously, dreaming about killing a loved one and not feeling anything.

I would wake up so disturbed and felt as if i was detached. At times feeling like i was about to lose my mind. No such thing with proviron.
Really crazy when you consider that people say mast is mild.

Especially those psychopathic dreams and twitching/waking up in the puddle of sweat at night. And it wasnt hot, 15 - 20C at the time.

Some people suggested it wasnt masteron (eq perhaps? Or who knows what?) Or that the powder was spiked with some tren.
The sides you describe are very user specific.
A lot of people get anxiety and sweating from masteron. I don’t get any. Now tren gives crazy rage, anxiety and insomnia, but zero sweating, nothing! Some people get zero sides on 500mg of tren a week. I don’t get it?
 
Zvch

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I have been thinking for some time now about an impact of dht and dht like substances on our body, mood, libido etc. Also, the impact those substances have in a cycle, their desired and undesired effects.

I for one would be interested in increasing my DHT levels.

As far as I know, there are no known ways of increasing 5 alpha reductase activity within the body as there is for increasing aromatase activity, such as high doses of hcg, beer, being fat and so on.

Injectable T seems to be converting to DHT at a lower rate than either endogenous T (as there is high concentration of 5 ar within the testicles) and especially than transdermal, or even scrotal T creams, as there is also high concentration of 5 ar in the skin.

Some people report feeling more of a boost with a cream. Perhaps it is the dht? Likely.
Also, some people using injectable T for trt report not feeling good, and then they list their bloodwork showing low, or low-normal dht levels.

So what are the options for increasing dht if so far we are only using injectable testosterone and not dht like substances?
Well, the first option would be to add in a dose of scrotal T cream everyday. Another option would be to use dht gel itself, or perhaps, an injectable form of dht.

Masteron and proviron are the closest available substitutes for dht, but they are NOT dht. They are often called dht's, but they are merely dht derivatives.

For example, masteron is often quoted to be the closest thing to dht. Well, the first big difference is that masteron is 2 alpha methyl dht and therefore it retains anabolic potency within the muscle.
HOWEVER, even though masteron has some potency in the muscle (or should i say, it remains masteron within the muscle and is not deactivated and turned into other metabolites), it has SIGNIFICANTLY lower binding affinity for androgen receptor than natural DHT.

If it retained the androgen receptor binding affinity of natural dht, it would be much more potent than testosterone at building lean tissue, which is obviously not the case,

Natural DHT is said to have binding affinity about 3x that of the testosterone. So natural DHT is a much more potent androgen, and if it wasnt deactivated in the muscle, it would be extremely potent at building tissue, similar to trenbolone (which is said to to bind to androgen receptor at 3x the affinity of testosterone).

Proviron is 1 alpha methyl dht, and because of that, has slight oral bioavailability. But it is still NOT dht. It also has MUCH lower binding affinity for the androgen receptor than natural dht.

So what do we know so far? Natural DHT is much more potent androgen than either proviron or masteron.
Testosterone itself is considered more androgenic and produces more virilization in women than either proviron or masteron (masteron was "safer" for women with breast cancer as at the same dose it produced significantly less virilization than testosterone ester), because of its conversion to dht, which is more potent androgen than either masteron or proviron.

Dht, proviron and masteron have similar benefits. They all somewhat antagonize estrogen and prolactin receptor and therefore counter some estrogenic sides. How does dht do that? Well, i will take a guess and use occam's razor, and say it merely binds to the receptor occupying space and preventing estradiol from binding.

They are often quoted to be AI's. They are potentially slight ai's. They will not lower concentration of estradiol significantly, although some of the dht/mast/proviron might bind with aromatase and therefore occupy space reserved for testosterone, in effect lowering the concentration of estradiol.
But they have double action. Other than just binding with aromatase enzyme (i dont know how high the affinity is compared to aromatase inhibitors), they also antagonize the estrogen receptor itself, providing more of an anti estrogenic effect than just stopping T->E2 conversion.

So some of my ongoing quests are:

1) Finding a way, if possible, of increasing 5 alpha reductase enzyme concentration in the body so that more of the injected testosterone is converted to dht.

2) To find out whether someone ever used injectable androstanolone (natural dht) and what were the results?
Also people who used the DHT gel, did they notice positive results in terms of mood, libido, strength and muscle hardness (loss of subQ water)?

3) When and if i get my hands on either injectable or transdermal natural DHT, compare its effects to both masteron and proviron.

What are your thoughts on this?


So I think it's important to point out that some of those positive benefits of DHTs that you're referring to such as the mood, libido, and strength boost may not be a direct result of increased DHT levels, but instead a result of lowered SHBG levels and in turn, increased Free Testosterone. We know that all DHT derived compounds (universally) lower SHBG and increase free testosterone. Virtually every androgen does, but DHTs do moreso than others. The only benefit that you're looking for that can be attributed directly to DHT itself and not possibly a lowering of SHBG is the visual hardening or drying-out effect.

If those are the benefits that you're most interested in, then there are other ways to lower SHBG. Low dosed SARMs have worked well in my experience, particularly LGD and Ostarine. Low doses can also be run long term with far less hormonal interaction, less side-effects and more benefits than even something like Proviron. Ostarine will give somewhat of a drying-out effect.

Also, the high binding rate to SHBG is why DHTs like Masteron and Proviron slow the production of estrogen, not because DHTs interact with the estrogen receptor or the aromatase enzyme. If I'm not mistaken, SHBG is like the "carrier" that transports excess testosterone to be converted into estrogen, so if SHBG is bound to, less estrogen is produced and more testosterone is freed up.

Epiandro would also be something to consider for those benefits - it's a metabolite of Testosterone and DHT.
 

CroLifter

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@ItalOne you say masteron does nothing for your libido. How about proviron?

I dont think we can compare masteron with proviron fairly. Let us take an average dose pf masteron, 400mg per week and a highish dose of proviron, 100mg per day. Proviron is said to have 3% oral bioavailability, so that would mean measly 21mg of 1 alpha methyl dht vs 280ish mg of 2 alpha methyl dht per week (if it is drostanolone enanthate)

How can that even be compared? Form everything i felt with proviron even at small doses, considering how much proviron actually ends up thrpugh the digestive system and circulating, i would say that proviron is much more potent than masteron on mg per mg basis.

Just look at the numbers.

Is it possible that 1 alpha methyl dht is so much more potent than 2 alpha methyl dht on mg per mg basis? It seems so from the fact that the amount of proviron that actually ends up in the blood stream is FAR smaller than amount of masteron, based on average doses most guys use.

We would need to use injectable proviron to compare it accurately to masteron.
 
ItalOne

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@ItalOne you say masteron does nothing for your libido. How about proviron?

I dont think we can compare masteron with proviron fairly. Let us take an average dose pf masteron, 400mg per week and a highish dose of proviron, 100mg per day. Proviron is said to have 3% oral bioavailability, so that would mean measly 21mg of 1 alpha methyl dht vs 280ish mg of 2 alpha methyl dht per week (if it is drostanolone enanthate)

How can that even be compared? Form everything i felt with proviron even at small doses, considering how much proviron actually ends up thrpugh the digestive system and circulating, i would say that proviron is much more potent than masteron on mg per mg basis.

Just look at the numbers.

Is it possible that 1 alpha methyl dht is so much more potent than 2 alpha methyl dht on mg per mg basis? It seems so from the fact that the amount of proviron that actually ends up in the blood stream is FAR smaller than amount of masteron, based on average doses most guys use.

We would need to use injectable proviron to compare it accurately to masteron.
No not really, and I’ve never used proviron. All to often people correlate having random boners or 2 day erections from cialis as enhanced libido. Lol well not for me. Obviously having a quality erection is a important part of having sex. But libido is energy, desire dirty thoughts. I don’t really get that from DHT derivatives. The two best libido enhancers I know are cocaine and alcohol!
Unfortunately they both are vasoconstrictors and inevitably will give you a limp noodle.
Life’s not fair!! 🙁 oh and no amount of anything will help your libido if you have a fat, mean b!tchy wife or girlfriend.
 
thebigt

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putting a pump of dermacrine or td dhea on ball sack will increase dht.
 

CroLifter

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Anyone tried taking proviron sublingually?

i got bayer's proviron and thinking about trying it, not sure how much it will improve absorption over oral administrarion so 12.5mg to start out.

Anyone knows if some of these fillers are toxic if taken sublingually?


So just an anecdote, but i usually take my aromasin without water, since it is such a tiny tablet, and i take 1/4 to 1/2. Sometimes it slips under my tongue and starts rapidly dissolving before i am able to swallow it. Perhaps absorption is enhanced this way and therefore i experience low e2 sides from only 12.5mg?

Anyway, going on a bit of a tangent. With proviron the difference in THEORY should be more pronounced than with exemestane since exemestane alreaey has good oral bioavailability.
 
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Renew1

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Anyone tried taking proviron sublingually?

i got bayer's proviron and thinking about trying it, not sure how much it will improve absorption over oral administrarion so 12.5mg to start out.

Anyone knows if some of these fillers are toxic if taken sublingually?


So just an anecdote, but i usually take my aromasin without water, since it is such a tiny tablet, and i take 1/4 to 1/2. Sometimes it slips under my tongue and starts rapidly dissolving before i am able to swallow it. Perhaps absorption is enhanced this way and therefore i experience low e2 sides from only 12.5mg?

Anyway, going on a bit of a tangent. With proviron the difference in THEORY should be more pronounced than with exemestane since exemestane alreaey has good oral bioavailability.
Anything nontoxic orally is also nontoxic sublingually.
 

CroLifter

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Masteron makes me a sexual deviant
Added 50mg masteron to my today's trt shot of test because i have some "events" coming up next week hahah.

Caber is the last line of defence if everything fails hahah.

Btw, will report back on sublingual proviron when i try it, if it had any effect on potency etc.
 
BCseacow83

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Butea and creatine both have a bit of data showing a mild increase in endo DHT. If you are not already taking both are relatively cheap, creatine more so than Butea, and easy to find. I like Barlowes brand Butea.
 

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Cro, have you ever run just testosterone, and nothing but testosterone, for TRT? Ive cruised on nothing but 200mg testE and an ai and had the libido of a fuking p0rn star and felt great.

Yes, 200mg is high end, but with all this other sh1t youre looking at adding in...have you trialled just test for a period of 4+ weeks?
 

CroLifter

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Cro, have you ever run just testosterone, and nothing but testosterone, for TRT? Ive cruised on nothing but 200mg testE and an ai and had the libido of a fuking p0rn star and felt great.

Yes, 200mg is high end, but with all this other sh1t youre looking at adding in...have you trialled just test for a period of 4+ weeks?
All the time. I dont really like adding other compounds in hence the reason of trying to get more benefit put of testosterone itself and skip adding mast/proviron. Currently 100mg test plus 1000 iu hcg per week.
I get a libido boost from hcg, without it my libido is hit or miss. Also, for whatever reason, without hcg, i almost feel as if i have adrenal insufficiency. I get these periods of light headedness and low energy.
Hypothyroidism or adrenal insufficiency, idk.

But anyway, hormone replacement for me doesnt work without hcg.

Also, for whatever reason, d3. When i am shirtless in the sunlight, i get morning wood the next day.
 
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CroLifter

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So i tried 12.5mg of proviron sublingually lol (didnt want it to hit me hard in case absorption is greatly improved).

A few minutes after it fully dissolved i felt sort of a beginning of a panic attack which i am prone to and also my heart rate was up to like 100 bpm roughly half an hour later.

Other than that, i feel nothing different from when i take it orally. Perhaps it is better this way as it avods first liver pass.

Feeling perhaps a little psychologically off and anxious, but that is probably because i added a little bit of masteron (or whatever that stuff is can never be sure with UG gear) in my monday shot.
I mean if mast is like that i dont even want to know what tren is like ahaha. 300mg + of mast and i am in full paranoia mode, feeling like i am losing my mind and like people are conspiring against me. I am extremely sensitive to thwt compound.
 

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So i tried 12.5mg of proviron sublingually lol (didnt want it to hit me hard in case absorption is greatly improved).

A few minutes after it fully dissolved i felt sort of a beginning of a panic attack which i am prone to and also my heart rate was up to like 100 bpm roughly half an hour later.

Other than that, i feel nothing different from when i take it orally. Perhaps it is better this way as it avods first liver pass.

Feeling perhaps a little psychologically off and anxious, but that is probably because i added a little bit of masteron (or whatever that stuff is can never be sure with UG gear) in my monday shot.
I mean if mast is like that i dont even want to know what tren is like ahaha. 300mg + of mast and i am in full paranoia mode, feeling like i am losing my mind and like people are conspiring against me. I am extremely sensitive to thwt compound.
Heard that anxiety attack happening to others aswell. You should definitely stay clear off Eq and tren. Lastly i believe there is not reason to take proviron sublingually as its not liver toxic at all
 
nostrum420

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Steroids are conjugated in the liver and the excreted by the kidneys; they are not deactivated in the muscle.
 
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