4 OHT Cyp Crashing-Can You Help?

Josey Wales

New member
(Sorry for the long post, but I want to get this out in some detail, so the informed chemists can understand my problem fully.)

I'm attempting to make 50ml of 4OHT Cyp at 150mg per ml, but it's crashing big time. Can you help me fix it? The powder came from Custom Nutrition, which I hear goes easier into solution than Sledge's. Here is what I've done so far:

1. I started the mixture with 5% BA and 15% BB. I mixed the powder, BA, BB and oil in a vial and placed it in pot of boiling water and let it sit until the solution was a clear amber color (looked like good whiskey).

2. Then I started filtering through a .45 whatman into the sterile vial. Unfortunately, almost exactly half way through the filtering process the solution started crashing.

3. I didn't want to get stuck with a bunch of half filtered and half unfiltered solution, so I reheated the unfiltered solution, which went clear again, and then filtered the rest into the sterile vial.

4. But before I got the second half filtered, it began crashing again. So at that point I had a bunch of sludge at the bottom of the unsterile vial. Not wanting to lose that much compound, I added another 2.5ml of BB to the sludge, mixed it up and filtered that into the sterile vial also.

5. So in the end the solution in the sterile, filtered vial is ~150mg/ml at 5% BA and 20%BB.

6. Problem though was that the solution in the sterile vial was still crashed and very cloudy.

7. To remedy that I then put the sterile vial in a pot of boiling water and let it sit until it was once again a clear amber color.

8. After that, I put in in the oven at 275 degrees. It's baking now. It's still clear, but I suspect that it will crash again as soon as it cools.

Assuming it does crash, any ideas as to how to fix it? Other than converting some fina with a kit, this is my first attempt at home brewing. I'd really appreciate the help.
 
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you can use between 30-40% bb this should stabilize it. bb is painless so high conc. won't hurt you. also you may want to keep baking it 4-5 times.
 
s.norman said:
you can use between 30-40% bb this should stabilize it. bb is painless so high conc. won't hurt you. also you may want to keep baking it 4-5 times.
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Thanks brother, I'll try that and report back.

To update my last post (recall the solution was still baking), the solution held up okay for awhile after cooling. But when I turned the vial upside down to draw some into a pin, the solution immediately crashed. It looks like like yellow sludge right now. Seems like the solution was simply delicate to the touch because it came apart as soon as the solution was agitated. Any idea why that kind of thing occurs? Thanks.
 
Update: I upped the BB to 30% and it's holding nicely. I've tried it twice so far and its working fine. No pain or lumps or anything. Thanks for the advice.
 
Hey Josey, its been over a month now. Did the solution hold? Have you used it consistantly? What effect did you receive from it?
...inquiring minds want to know.
 
i had a problem with a 4AD base solution continualy crashing.
rather than continue to add more chem's i finally just let it crash. siphoned off some of the BB-BA-PEG, then added 40ml of DMSO and 20ml of IPA91percent, to the crashed powder(which was a gooey, crystalized lump). used it as a TD with good results.
maybe this will help someone.
 
GoPower said:
Does anyone know the molecular weight and melting point for 4oht and formestane??
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MW for Form is 302.4 and MP is ~392.9' F (200.5' C)
MW for 4OHT is 303.4, can't remember the MP off hand, why do you ask?
 
DR.D said:
That's the MW for the free alcohol, not the cyp.
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If I am correct, then the cypionate version MW shold be 435.5184?
I am trying to determine if I can get into a BA(2%)/BB(15%)/PEG (400) solution at a higher concentration than others have mentioned here. Would 300mg/ml be far-fetched?
 
GoPower said:
If I am correct, then the cypionate version MW shold be 435.5184?
I am trying to determine if I can get into a BA(2%)/BB(15%)/PEG (400) solution at a higher concentration than others have mentioned here. Would 300mg/ml be far-fetched?
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How much can you get into the above mixture? I'd step up to 5% on the BA and probably 30% on the BB and then I bet you could. I use to prep my 1T cyp with high BB like this and it helped make it pain free. Over 50% it promotes pain though. I never posted my recipe, but this is what I discovered for a "painless" 100mg/ml oil based 4-OHT cyp solution:

35% Safflower Oil
30% Benzyl Benzoate
20% Benzyl Salicylate
10% Benzyl Alcohol
5% Benzocaine

I was able to get 300mg/ml by esterfying the 4-OH with hex or hep, but that was tricky and a little painful too. I must have left some free acid in it because I had to treat the solution with trolamine to fix it.
 
DR.D said:
How much can you get into the above mixture? I'd step up to 5% on the BA and probably 30% on the BB and then I bet you could. I use to prep my 1T cyp with high BB like this and it helped make it pain free. Over 50% it promotes pain though. I never posted my recipe, but this is what I discovered for a "painless" 100mg/ml oil based 4-OHT cyp solution:

35% Safflower Oil
30% Benzyl Benzoate
20% Benzyl Salicylate
10% Benzyl Alcohol
5% Benzocaine

I was able to get 300mg/ml by esterfying the 4-OH with hex or hep, but that was tricky and a little painful too. I must have left some free acid in it because I had to treat the solution with trolamine to fix it.
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I curious... what is the Benzyl Salicylate for?? Isn't it an anti-bacterial but with 10% BA i don't think that that's what you used it for?? Using an analgesic to kill the pain is very interesting...
 
Sikdogg,

50% BB does a good job too, but it's too painful to shoot. The BS allows for a lower % of BB and adds some anti-inflam action locally too. Plus, it's as good a co-solvent as BB. The BA seems high, but that's what it takes. The benzocaine helps a lot, it is very poorly water soluble so it lingers for about 2 days to kill pain.
 
I recall a post where you suggested using trolamine @ 1% to kill prop pain... would benzocaine work as well or do you think trolamine works better??
 
sikdogg said:
I recall a post where you suggested using trolamine @ 1% to kill prop pain... would benzocaine work as well or do you think trolamine works better??
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The trolamine works well with cyp or long chain esters that have degraded to contain a little free acid. It forms a dark complex and clings to the inner glass of the vial so no need to refilter if you see this. This helps to kill pain with older or dirty solutions and homebrews. With acetate and prop, it helps neutralize the free acid because of the fast initial hydrolysis, then the benzocaine stretchs pain relief into the next day. Plus benzocaine is a base too, so it attracts free acids after hydrolysis. You could use the trolamine with 4-OHT cyp, but as you can see, it may not be as applicable as the benzo for this. Still, a 0.5% concentration won't hurt anything even if it's not really needed.
 
BS and Benzo are both powders... how do you calculate the percentage to use?? How does weight relate to volume to properly calculate 20% BS and 5% benzo??
 
sikdogg said:
BS and Benzo are both powders... how do you calculate the percentage to use?? How does weight relate to volume to properly calculate 20% BS and 5% benzo??
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You would need the density/sp. gravity to convert, but when adding a solid to a liquid it is proper to go w/v not v/v. The benz is a solid so I add it just like the active (a % by weight) this qs to mark with the solvent. BS is a liquid. You might be thinking of Phenyl Salicylate, it's useless in my experience so don't waste your time. You can make all you solvents %v/v if you know what concentrations you want, then solubilize your powders from there.
 
This site sells BS as a powder...

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I also found a couple of other chem sites that sell it as a powder. Thanks for your help.
 
I don't know why they do that. They sell a liquid by weight! And don't even bother to put a description on there so you realize it's a liquid. These guys are OK to get stuff from, but that's a little misleading. Many suppliers do this with certain chems, not sure why they wouldn't just sell a liquid in ml, but it's not uncommon.

sikdogg said:
This site sells BS as a powder...

Invalid Link Removed

I also found a couple of other chem sites that sell it as a powder. Thanks for your help.
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The only problem I see to that mix is that (as I have read elsewhere) if you are alergic to aspirin, you should not use Benzyl Salicylate.
In addition, I believe the analgesic properties of BS and are temporary and may not last throughout the length of time that the hormone is released out of depot.
Have you considered using Ethyl Oleate for mixing 4oht?
 
GoPower said:
The only problem I see to that mix is that (as I have read elsewhere) if you are alergic to aspirin, you should not use Benzyl Salicylate.
In addition, I believe the analgesic properties of BS and are temporary and may not last throughout the length of time that the hormone is released out of depot.
Have you considered using Ethyl Oleate for mixing 4oht?
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Yes, BS may cause a similar reaction to ASA, so don't use if you're asprin sensitive. However, the analgesic effect is certainly protracted and remains as long as the ester is still slowly hydrolyzing at the depo sight. I like it this way, and it's just as good a co-solvent as BB at the same concentration. EO is not suitable for 4OHT cyp. The solubility is very poor. Linoleate is better, but more painful. Believe me, I tried over 100 different carriers and combos trying to crack this one. 100mg/ml is about as good as I achieved while retaining a "pain free" depo.
 
Dr.D, with the 100mg/ml solution, how much did you use, how long was the cycle, and what physical effects did you eventually get from it?
 
It was really good stuff! No shut down at all. I used it with Test and I swear that it pevented shutdown all on it's own with no other AI. Even after a month of high dose test I was still bouncing. It also seemed to prevent other sides like skin breakout, water retention and aggression from the test. I was using 400-500mg/wk. It would be of valuble on it's own at probably double that dose, but it's real value seems to be in it's stacking potential.
 
Thanks Dr.D. Glad to hear from those who have experienced it. I keep trying to decide if it is worth my time and effort to deal with it. You validating the positive effects help a bit.
 
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