4-DHEA Questions

[austincaa]

This is my first time taking anything outside of Creatine so I have a few questions.

The 4-DHEA I bought is 130 mg per day.

How long should I take it and should I go straight into the full dose? I was thinking of taking it for 6 weeks.

Does it require any PCT? I have an OTC Aromatase Inhibitor that I plan on taking during AND after the 4-DHEA.. how long should I take it after the cycle?

Do you recommend any other OTC supplements to use during or after the 4-DHEA? All I have right now is that AI, which also claims to control cortisol and estrogen levels.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

4-DHEA is a 2 step conversion pro-hormone. No one really knows exactly how much of each dose, per individual, actually makes it into it's target hormone: Testosterone. At around 200mg/day it is usually enough to act as a hormone base for other, higher anabolic compounds like 1-DHEA or various SARMs (keeps you feeling good). It is usually not run by itself, solo - as it doesn't seem to push your Testosterone levels high enough to do anything in terms of muscle building. It can suppress natural production however, being an exogenous DRUG, so you should plan on PCT with a SERM like Clomid. And since it doesn't seem to increase your levels *that* high - an AI probably won't be needed - but everyone aromatizes a little differently, so *always* have an AI like Aromasin on the shelf. You mind as well grab some 1-DHEA to run alongside it, if you are going to start doing drug cycles and suppress your natural production. Since you say all you've taken is Creatine up until now - I would suggest holding off and reading a ton in the Anabolic section first. Also, if you are under 26 years old, I would hold off until you *are* at least 26 - make no mistake, these are drugs despite how they are sold.

 

[VaughnTrue]

4-DHEA does seem to aromatize more than I would have expected. An AI on cycle isn't something I would advise against, but may not be necessary. As was already pointed out, rarely run on its own...I'd suggest stacking it with 1-Testosterone from Hi-Tech Pharma

 

[EricMM]

4-DHEA is a 2 step conversion pro-hormone. No one really knows exactly how much of each dose, per individual, actually makes it into it's target hormone: Testosterone. At around 200mg/day it is usually enough to act as a hormone base for other, higher anabolic compounds like 1-DHEA or various SARMs (keeps you feeling good). It is usually not run by itself, solo - as it doesn't seem to push your Testosterone levels high enough to do anything in terms of muscle building. It can suppress natural production however, being an exogenous DRUG, so you should plan on PCT with a SERM like Clomid. And since it doesn't seem to increase your levels *that* high - an AI probably won't be needed - but everyone aromatizes a little differently, so *always* have an AI like Aromasin on the shelf. You mind as well grab some 1-DHEA to run alongside it, if you are going to start doing drug cycles and suppress your natural production. Since you say all you've taken is Creatine up until now - I would suggest holding off and reading a ton in the Anabolic section first. Also, if you are under 26 years old, I would hold off until you *are* at least 26 - make no mistake, these are drugs despite how they are sold.

I'd agree with everything except the age situation. That is 100% dependent on your own body. There is no "one size fits all" situation and each person processes hormones pretty differently. I'd go with 1-Andro over 4-Andro though because I think it's a better choice. I'd stick with 130mg per day of 4-Andro and 200-300mg per day of 1-Andro. I go with a 1:2 ration of 1 to 4 Isomers.

With 4-Andro always take an AI with it! You are smart on that one! Not sure which one you are using though!

 

[austincaa]

Thanks for the good info. Even if it's not the norm to run 4-DHEA by itself, is it not advisable to do so for some reason? Or is it just because the benefits of it are negligible? I might just bite the bullet and get the 1-DHEA too, but it's expensive.

I've never heard of Clomid. Can this be obtained OTC and what is the purpose of it? So you think all I need for PCT is just Clomid?

I was thinking about just taking this AI alone and forgetting about the 4-DHEA, because it claims to also be a natural test booster as well and it's not like there would be any negative sides (that I know of).

The AI is Steel Supplements Alpha AF. It won't let me post a link for whatever reason.

The ingredients are listed under supplement facts. I think I'll just take it no matter what, even if I don't do the 4-DHEA, and if I do the 4-DHEA I'll take it during and after. Maybe it would be dumb to take on its own, but I have no idea.

 

[Nac]

I can almost guarantee that if you take the 4dhea by itself, you will be disappointed.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Thanks for the good info. Even if it's not the norm to run 4-DHEA by itself, is it not advisable to do so for some reason? Or is it just because the benefits of it are negligible? I might just bite the bullet and get the 1-DHEA too, but it's expensive.

I've never heard of Clomid. Can this be obtained OTC and what is the purpose of it? So you think all I need for PCT is just Clomid?

I was thinking about just taking this AI alone and forgetting about the 4-DHEA, because it claims to also be a natural test booster as well and it's not like there would be any negative sides (that I know of).

The AI is Steel Supplements Alpha AF. It won't let me post a link for whatever reason.

The ingredients are listed under supplement facts. I think I'll just take it no matter what, even if I don't do the 4-DHEA, and if I do the 4-DHEA I'll take it during and after. Maybe it would be dumb to take on its own, but I have no idea.

Bud, no offense, we all didn't know a lot at one point (and not saying I'm some expert or anything) - but your questions indicate that maybe you should hold off on pro-hormones for a while. Go to the Anabolic section and read every thread that has 1 or 4 DHEA/Andro in the title for a few weeks.

Even though the DHEAs are sold as OTC supplements - a portion of them converts to drugs (Testosterone, 1-Testosterone, 19-Nortestosterone, etc...). You need to read up on how to best set yourself up to recover from drug use.

The reason most run 4-DHEA is to provide Testosterone when another compound like 1-DHEA suppresses your natural production - known as a "Test" or "Hormone" Base.

 

[austincaa]

Yeah I understand that, but part of my learning is asking these questions too though.

Do you think that 1-DHEA and 4-DHEA w/ an AI over a 6 week period followed by Clomid and the AI is a good starting point though? How long should I take the Clomid for after the DHEA?

I've actually done a lot of research on DHEA. It's just that there seem to be a lot of mixed opinions on PCT and whether or not you even need it after low doses of the stuff.

 

[thebigt]

Yeah I understand that, but part of my learning is asking these questions too though.

Do you think that 1-DHEA and 4-DHEA w/ an AI over a 6 week period followed by Clomid and the AI is a good starting point though? How long should I take the Clomid for after the DHEA?

I've actually done a lot of research on DHEA. It's just that there seem to be a lot of mixed opinions on PCT and whether or not you even need it after low doses of the stuff.

if you go to the anabolics section and do some research, you will be able to ask more 'educated' questions.

 

[EricMM]

I'd take 1-Andro in addition to a good test booster. I don't think you are going to get good results from a testosterone booster alone. None of them have been shown to build muscle on their own. I think with testosterone it has to reach a certain level before there is a difference in mass. Gaspari Novedex XT proved that to me when 1200ng/dl didn't increase mass.

 

[elo76]

Listen to these guys! Read these before doing anything else. I can tell by your questions, you are not ready.

Andros a Users Guide
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/275427-andros-users-guide.html

PCT a Users Guide
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/276620-post-cycle-therapy.html

 

[user567]

I would pause and do some more research first. An OTC AI will do nothing. You need a real AI like arimidex or aromasin.

What are you trying to accomplish? You want to bulk and gain muscle or lean out and keep muscle? How old are you?

 

[VaughnTrue]

I would pause and do some more research first. An OTC AI will do nothing. You need a real AI like arimidex or aromasin.

What are you trying to accomplish? You want to bulk and gain muscle or lean out and keep muscle? How old are you?

you do realize there are numerous OTC AI's available at this point with Ki values as good or better than Rx AI's, right?

 

[EricMM]

you do realize there are numerous OTC AI's available at this point with Ki values as good or better than Rx AI's, right?

Yeah, and frankly I prefer suicide inhibitors in many cases (mixed is best IMHO) because I think that various factors increase and ther can be a rebound of Aromatase if the AI is not tapered.

Brain Res. 1994 Sep 19;657(1-2):105-23.
Effects of steroidal and non steroidal aromatase inhibitors on sexual behavior and aromatase-immunoreactive cells and fibers in the quail brain.

Foidart A1, Harada N, Balthazart J.
Author information
Abstract
Castrated quail were treated with Silastic implants filled with testosterone (T) in association with injections of the aromatase inhibitors, R76713 (racemic vorozole; 1 mg/kg twice a day) or 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (OHA; 5 mg/bird twice a day). Control birds received no treatment (CX group) or were implanted with T capsules only (CX + T group). Both R76713 and OHA strongly inhibited the T-activated male copulatory behavior. This inhibition had the same magnitude in both groups. The growth of the cloacal gland, a strictly androgen-dependent process was not affected by these compounds. The treatments significantly affected the number of aromatase-immunoreactive (ARO-ir) cells in each of the six brain areas that were studied: the anterior and posterior parts of the sexually dimorphic medial preoptic nucleus (POM), the septal region, the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST) and the anterior and posterior parts of the tuber. This number was significantly increased in all areas by T. In agreement with our previous study, R76713 significantly inhibited this effect of T in the tuberal hypothalamus but not in the anterior POM nor in the BNST. By contrast the effect of T on the number of ARO-ir cells was completely blocked by OHA in all brain nuclei. The two inhibitors had statistically different effects in all brain regions. Like in a previous study, R76713 increased the intensity of the staining of all ARO-ir cells. This effect took several days to develop suggesting a progressive build-up of the enzyme concentration. This was also suggested by the fact that a rebound in aromatase activity was observed 16 to 24 h after a single injection of R76713. The increased immunoreactivity was not observed in OHA-treated birds. The denser immunoreactivity in R76713-treated birds and the better tissue preservation due to the aldehyde fixative that had been used provided here a clearer picture of the cellular and subcellular localization of ARO-ir material. This allowed to identify new groups of immunoreactive cells, namely in the nucleus accumbens, in the area of the paleostriatum ventrale, in the nucleus taeniae, in the medial and caudal hypothalamus and in the medial part of the mesencephalon and of the pons. Most of the immunoreactive material was located in perikarya but some of these cells were also surrounded by dense networks of ARO-ir fibers often associated with immunopositive punctate structures.

 

[Joseph2288]

Anything under 500 mg of 4 andro isn't going to do much and that's probably why people taking it at 300 or lower aren't seeing results I've gained over ten pounds on a 4 andro cycle bought andro the giant to be specific and ran mega pct by primeval labs kept eight pounds

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Anything under 500 mg of 4 andro isn't going to do much and that's probably why people taking it at 300 or lower aren't seeing results I've gained over ten pounds on a 4 andro cycle bought andro the giant to be specific and ran mega pct by primeval labs kept eight
pounds

4-DHEA is a 2 step conversion compound. While no one has really pinpointed what the conversion rate to Testosterone is (generally, and enzymatic variability may be unique to each individual) - I'd say the consensus is that it will never convert enough to put you out of range (1200ng/dl) and probably only keeps you homeostatic'ish (which is why it's used as a base). For Testosterone to actually build muscle over and above what someone "in range" (and lets just use Teens and Twenty-somethings at 700-1200) - you need to go Super-physiological. See studies by Bhasin:

https://www.google.com/#q=Testosterone+Enanthate+Shalender+Bhasin

You only have so many enzymes, so taking more 4-AD than needed won't build more muscle - it's not like directly injecting more Testosterone. You probably gained those 10 pounds from a caloric surplus, training properly, and sleeping well. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Geoffr]

Is there a difference in 4-DHEA and 4-Andro?

Searching around the ingredients labels seems to differ?

4-Andro : 4 androstene-3b-ol 17-one

And

4 DHEA: 4-dehydroepiandrosterone

Why is this?

 

[EricMM]

People often use slightly different names for the same item. There is not a "standard" name for 4-DHEA which causes the confusion.