4-andro

Joshinator

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Does anybody have any experience running 4-andro (4-dhea) by itself. Or with a trt dose of test?
 
Wobmarvel

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No need to use with test. I've never had much of an effect from it but I probably didn't run it high enough dose. It's best used as a base rather than a cycle in itself.
 
cheftepesh1

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Does anybody have any experience running 4-andro (4-dhea) by itself. Or with a trt dose of test?
I have only run it with 1-andro. Pretty much the easiest combo to use.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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4 andro will be of little to no use with a trt dose. your body will not convert 4 andro if it doesn't need test. in trt … you don't need test.
 

bradleyt1

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I know we talked about this before.. but I truly believe that the effects of muscle gain and strength when using 4-AD.. in this case real 4-Androstenediol are without a doubt from the 4-Diol.. reason being.. 4-AD only converts to test at a low amount maybe less than 15 percent.. so the increase in test is minimal at best and bloodwork will show that.. yet the gains that people would get would be 10-15 lbs from 4-diol solo cycle and a lot of bloat.. there has to be something about the hormone itself that is responsible for this.. I myself have used androtest real 4-AD and have felt the androgenic power way different than injecting test cypionate.
 
thebigt

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4 andro will be of little to no use with a trt dose. your body will not convert 4 andro if it doesn't need test. in trt … you don't need test.
my base is 500-750 on 100mg test cyp weekly....on 4 andro from Olympus labs it went up to 900-1050. but I should add that I was also running OL's epiando with it.

the high test almost got my dosage cut back....
 
StarScream66

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The problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
 

bradleyt1

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The problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
Absolutely true! I had a buddy of mine who was running the andro stack from Blackstone labs and during his run he went get bloodwork to see if his test was low enough to get TRT and it was... however.. his estrone levels was like 2000 or some **** lmao so it’s possible I told him that the 4-dhea turned to a bunch of androstenedione and that is known not to become estradiol but estrone I believe! Crazy ****!
 
xR1pp3Rx

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if you look hard enough you can find the DHEA master breakdown paths chart … from which and what can convert (forwards or backwards) and into what. remember a lot of PHs can convert backwards multiple times as well.. AGAIN sometimes its what your body has enzymatically available to convert your PH that matters more.
 
StarScream66

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Androstenedione does not cause muscle loss.
It absolutely does. I am hunting for the study and once I find it, I'll post it here.

if you look hard enough you can find the DHEA master breakdown paths chart … from which and what can convert (forwards or backwards) and into what. remember a lot of PHs can convert backwards multiple times as well.. AGAIN sometimes its what your body has enzymatically available to convert your PH that matters more.

Here's an image of the pathway of DHEA and androstenedione. As you can see, it readily converts to estrogen more than testosterone.



You can read more about it on a great old site that's no longer up, but I found it on archive.org. Ergogenics -Androstenedione
 
Renew1

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It absolutely does. I am hunting for the study and once I find it, I'll post it here.




Here's an image of the pathway of DHEA and androstenedione. As you can see, it readily converts to estrogen more than testosterone.



You can read more about it on a great old site that's no longer up, but I found it on archive.org. Ergogenics -Androstenedione
I've read on it pretty extensively.

But you aren't talking about "it". You are talking about at least 3 different "its".

In most males, it seems that DHEA Converts more readily to Estrogen than Testosterone.
I keep a bottle of DHEA around just in case my Estro gets too low.

But we aren't talking about DHEA.

2 Facts:

1) - Androstenedione does not cause muscle loss (unless you're some kind of weird outlier that I've never heard of).

2) - Estrogen (when combined in moderation with Testosterone) is Anabolic.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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this would be accurate.

androstene isn't going to put muscle on (men) but it isn't going to cause wasting with out some outlier causing it.
 
StarScream66

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I've read on it pretty extensively.

But you aren't talking about "it". You are talking about at least 3 different "its".

In most males, it seems that DHEA Converts more readily to Estrogen than Testosterone.
I keep a bottle of DHEA around just in case my Estro gets too low.

But we aren't talking about DHEA.

2 Facts:

1) - Androstenedione does not cause muscle loss (unless you're some kind of weird outlier that I've never heard of).

2) - Estrogen (when combined in moderation with Testosterone) is Anabolic.

Well, technically, the chemical structure of 4DHEA is very similar and it has to go through 2 enzyme conversions in order to complete it's pathway to testosterone. Check this article from PricePlow that explains the conversions for 1AD.


I know that estrogen is anabolic, but with 4AD, you're unfortunately ending up with more estrogen than you are testosterone.

Four weeks of androstenedione supplementation diminishes the treatment response in middle aged men


Abstract
Objectives: To examine baseline hormonal concentrations and the pharmacokinetic response on day 0 and day 28 of 28 days of androstenedione supplementation.
Methods: Eight men (mean (SD) age 44.1 (3.0) years (range 40–48), weight 76.3 (9.4) kg, and percentage body fat 20.6 (6.7)) participated in a randomised, double blind, cross over, 2 × 28 day placebo controlled study. Subjects were tested on day 0 and 28 days after receiving 200 mg/day oral androstenedione and a placebo treatment with a 28 day washout period between treatments. Serum hormone concentrations were examined at baseline (time 0) and then at 30 minute intervals for 180 minutes to measure day 0 and day 28 pharmacokinetic responses. Analytes included androstenedione, total testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), oestradiol, and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Lipid concentrations, weight, body composition, resting heart rate, and blood pressure were also measured.
Results: Analysis of integrated area under the curve (AUC) and time 0 hormonal concentrations by repeated measures multivariate analysis of variance (p<0.05) and Fisher’s post hoc analysis showed a significant increase in AUC for serum androstenedione at day 0 (108.3 (27.6) nmol/l) in the supplemented condition as compared with day 28 (43.4 (13.1) nmol/l) and placebo (2.1 (0.8) nmol/l) conditions. No other significant AUC changes were noted. After 28 days of supplementation, DHEAS levels were significantly elevated (p = 0.00002) at time 0 (12.9 (1.3) μmol/l) compared with placebo (7.0 (0.8) μmol/l) with a trend (p = 0.08) toward elevation of time 0 androstenedione concentrations (16.4 (7.0) nmol/l) compared with placebo (5.6 (0.4) nmol/l). No changes were found for lipids, resting heart rate, or blood pressure, weight, or percentage body fat.
Conclusion: Although supplementation with 200 mg/day androstenedione increases AUC for serum androstenedione in the day 0 condition, continued supplementation is characterised by a diminished treatment response, coupled with time 0 increases in testosterone precursors but not testosterone.

That's one of the studies, but I'm still hunting for the other one. Be patient, and I will find it for you :)

UPDATE: Found it!

Although there was a trend for muscle protein synthesis to increase, no significant differences were found between androstenedione and control groups using two different methods (three-pool model and precursor-product approach). On the contrary, there was a trend for muscle protein breakdown to be elevated, which was entirely attributable to androstenedione intake. The trend for an increase in protein breakdown after androstenedione treatment may have been the consequence of the increase in estradiol. In fact, it has been reported that long term exposure to estrogens
decreases muscle fiber size in rats (22). Overall, the trend for an increase in both protein breakdown and synthesis indicates
that androstenedione tended to increase muscle protein turnover. However, the increased turnover did not lead to muscle protein anabolism, as the increase in protein breakdown exceeded the increase in protein synthesis.
I had to upload the PDF to Mega.NZ which is great for storing files, It's completely encrypted and everything.

Androstenedione Does Not Stimulate Muscle Protein Anabolism in Young Healthy Men
 
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Renew1

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Well, technically, the chemical structure of 4DHEA is very similar and it has to go through 2 enzyme conversions in order to complete it's pathway to testosterone. Check this article from PricePlow that explains the conversions for 1AD.


I know that estrogen is anabolic, but with 4AD, you're unfortunately ending up with more estrogen than you are testosterone.




That's one of the studies, but I'm still hunting for the other one. Be patient, and I will find it for you :)
I really have done a lot of reading on the subject.

Remember, similarity of structure doesn't mean that compounds will have the same effects, or side effects at all.
 
StarScream66

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I really have done a lot of reading on the subject.

Remember, similarity of structure doesn't mean that compounds will have the same effects, or side effects at all.
Check my updated post now, I found the study.
 

bradleyt1

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Screw 4-dhea.. what about 4-Androstenediol? Like the chemical pathway? Pretty sure it goes straight to testosterone
 
Renew1

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Check my updated post now, I found the study.
I appreciate the link to the article that says it cites a study. But even that article doesn't state that Androstenedione causes loss of muscle (of course).
... But back to the man's thread ...
 

Joshinator

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The problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
Yes im interested
 

Joshinator

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Absolutely true! I had a buddy of mine who was running the andro stack from Blackstone labs and during his run he went get bloodwork to see if his test was low enough to get TRT and it was... however.. his estrone levels was like 2000 or some **** lmao so it’s possible I told him that the 4-dhea turned to a bunch of androstenedione and that is known not to become estradiol but estrone I believe! Crazy ****!
Weird. Does anybody else have experience with this?
 

Joshinator

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Absolutely true! I had a buddy of mine who was running the andro stack from Blackstone labs and during his run he went get bloodwork to see if his test was low enough to get TRT and it was... however.. his estrone levels was like 2000 or some **** lmao so it’s possible I told him that the 4-dhea turned to a bunch of androstenedione and that is known not to become estradiol but estrone I believe! Crazy ****!
Weird. Does anybody else have experience with this?
 
StarScream66

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I appreciate the link to the article that says it cites a study. But even that article doesn't state that Androstenedione causes loss of muscle (of course).
... But back to the man's thread ...
It says it plain as day.
 
Renew1

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It says it plain as day.
No. Not the link I looked at. After you said you fixed a link I followed the one I thought you fixed. It did NOT say that.
Furthermore ... The compound mentioned DOES NOT cause muscle loss. I've spent way more time on something that I already know the answer to than I should have.
I'm done with this.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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the highlighted sentence you posted clearly goes on to state any muscle wasting was likely do to estrone. and again.. I refer you to the fact that PHs interchange readily to things you don't intend to get from them. PHs are not designers... they are kinda like throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. unfortunately the thing that sticks sometimes isn't what you hoped for.
 
StarScream66

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If you'd like to start a thread on this, feel free.

I'll try and start a thread on it tomorrow and we can have a scientific discussion on the pros and cons on andro, in a civil discussion. I'll link back here when I post it. Be prepared to have your studies ready :)
 

Joshinator

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So if it aromatizes so easilly, wouldnt it make sense to run an AI with it? Run enough AI and maybe it would convert to test at a much higher rate?

I have a bottle of it so im curious.


And as a separate note, ive read somewhere it can act as an antiandrogen, given that it has a weaker anabolic/androgenic activity than testosterone so when it and its metabolites bind to the AR they block the stronger androgens from binding.
 

Nac

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I'll try and start a thread on it tomorrow and we can have a scientific discussion on the pros and cons on andro, in a civil discussion. I'll link back here when I post it. Be prepared to have your studies ready :)
Are you Pogue?
 
xR1pp3Rx

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So if it aromatizes so easilly, wouldnt it make sense to run an AI with it? Run enough AI and maybe it would convert to test at a much higher rate?

I have a bottle of it so im curious.


And as a separate note, ive read somewhere it can act as an antiandrogen, given that it has a weaker anabolic/androgenic activity than testosterone so when it and its metabolites bind to the AR they block the stronger androgens from binding.
its not aromatizing. its enzymatically converting into estrogen. this is way upstream of aromatase. which happens downstream once the PH has converted to test.
 

jim2509

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Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.

So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
 
cheftepesh1

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Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.

So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
You could always look at alpha stano by Alpha Gainz. Great product for a run like this. Plus with code chef 25% off.


 
cheftepesh1

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Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.

So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
You could always look at alpha stano by Alpha Gainz. Great product for a run like this. Plus with code chef 25% off.


 
StarScream66

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Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.

So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
1,4DHEA which converts to EQ is a good alternative. EQ is similar to test and provides a great appetite boost. Plus, the good thing about it is that 1,4androstendiol and dione are both safe and only convert to EQ and not estrogen directly.
 

jim2509

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1,4DHEA which converts to EQ is a good alternative. EQ is similar to test and provides a great appetite boost. Plus, the good thing about it is that 1,4androstendiol and dione are both safe and only convert to EQ and not estrogen directly.
To be honest I didnt even consider 1,4 DHEA thanks. I'll look into that.
 

Dcoopair

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The problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
Please get out your knowledge shovel..gona start a heavy confusing 4 andro cycle.. I would like to read that study
 
StarScream66

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after 5 days of administration, lol.
Well, regardless, after 5 days of administration they actually lost muscle. But, your point is valid, it is a very short study and a small sample group. But, the downsides of androstenedione should be very well known by now. That's why it was almost immediately replaced by androstenediol which cannot convert to estrogen and only converts directly to testosterone.
 
thebigt

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Well, regardless, after 5 days of administration they actually lost muscle. But, your point is valid, it is a very short study and a small sample group. But, the downsides of androstenedione should be very well known by now. That's why it was almost immediately replaced by androstenediol which cannot convert to estrogen and only converts directly to testosterone.
posting a study about a hormone which only covers 5 days of administration is totally worthless, imo.
 
Renew1

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Are you not familiar with androstenedione and how it works and what it converts to and how it works? Again, there is a big reason it was dropped in favor of androstenediol.

Brother ... You seem to totally be missing the fact that some of the guys you are speaking with have MASSIVE amounts of knowledge. Both from books/papers and from decades (some as much as FOUR decades) of experience and research.

I can assure you that he's familiar with it.
:)
 
thebigt

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Are you not familiar with androstenedione and how it works and what it converts to and how it works? Again, there is a big reason it was dropped in favor of androstenediol.

you are really good at posting studys…. I ran the original oympus labs 4andro and epiandro while on trt for 2 months...I got blood tested towards the end of cycle and my test was 500 points higher. it nearly got me taken off trt, had to convince doc it was a fluke, when retested a month after cycle my test had returned almost to normal with it being only slightly above base--estrogen remained within range with only a slight increase....look at some of the reviews, my results were pretty much the norm.
 
StarScream66

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Brother ... You seem to totally be missing the fact that some of the guys you are speaking with have MASSIVE amounts of knowledge. Both from books/papers and from decades (some as much as FOUR decades) of experience and research.

I can assure you that he's familiar with it.
:)
So, then I guess I don't understand why he would want to risk using it.
 
Renew1

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It happens a lot. A guy will come on here and try to "enlighten" all the OGs with their superior knowledge. :)

I think it was maybe a year and a half ago, that a Dr came on here and was trying to correct every other post/comment. .... You know... 'Cause he's a Dr, and he and his Dr friends can explain to us why so much of what we believe is wrong. ('cause they're Drs).

He's gone now.
He didn't stay long. Not because we ran him off, but because we already knew the truth (from decades of experience, and study).

I guess he finally got tired of being wrong (or not being trusted, simply because he was a Dr).

I'm in NO WAY downplaying medical knowledge. We have some wonderfully knowledgeable and talented guys on here in the medical field (I won't call them out here, because I don't want them to be swamped with questions and tags).

But those guys know how to balance their medical knowledge with their own personal experiences, and with the experiences of other knowledgeable guys on here.
 
Renew1

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So, then I guess I don't understand why he would want to risk using it.
I know.
And you are assuming that it is some kind of deficiency on his end.

That's the wrong assumption, my friend.
:)
 

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