Does anybody have any experience running 4-andro (4-dhea) by itself. Or with a trt dose of test?
I have only run it with 1-andro. Pretty much the easiest combo to use.Does anybody have any experience running 4-andro (4-dhea) by itself. Or with a trt dose of test?
4 andro will be of little to no use with a trt dose. your body will not convert 4 andro if it doesn't need test. in trt … you don't need test.
my base is 500-750 on 100mg test cyp weekly....on 4 andro from Olympus labs it went up to 900-1050. but I should add that I was also running OL's epiando with it.4 andro will be of little to no use with a trt dose. your body will not convert 4 andro if it doesn't need test. in trt … you don't need test.
Androstenedione does not cause muscle loss.The problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
Absolutely true! I had a buddy of mine who was running the andro stack from Blackstone labs and during his run he went get bloodwork to see if his test was low enough to get TRT and it was... however.. his estrone levels was like 2000 or some **** lmao so it’s possible I told him that the 4-dhea turned to a bunch of androstenedione and that is known not to become estradiol but estrone I believe! Crazy ****!The problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
It absolutely does. I am hunting for the study and once I find it, I'll post it here.Androstenedione does not cause muscle loss.
if you look hard enough you can find the DHEA master breakdown paths chart … from which and what can convert (forwards or backwards) and into what. remember a lot of PHs can convert backwards multiple times as well.. AGAIN sometimes its what your body has enzymatically available to convert your PH that matters more.
I've read on it pretty extensively.It absolutely does. I am hunting for the study and once I find it, I'll post it here.
Here's an image of the pathway of DHEA and androstenedione. As you can see, it readily converts to estrogen more than testosterone.
You can read more about it on a great old site that's no longer up, but I found it on archive.org. Ergogenics -Androstenedione
I've read on it pretty extensively.
But you aren't talking about "it". You are talking about at least 3 different "its".
In most males, it seems that DHEA Converts more readily to Estrogen than Testosterone.
I keep a bottle of DHEA around just in case my Estro gets too low.
But we aren't talking about DHEA.
2 Facts:
1) - Androstenedione does not cause muscle loss (unless you're some kind of weird outlier that I've never heard of).
2) - Estrogen (when combined in moderation with Testosterone) is Anabolic.
Four weeks of androstenedione supplementation diminishes the treatment response in middle aged men
Abstract
Objectives: To examine baseline hormonal concentrations and the pharmacokinetic response on day 0 and day 28 of 28 days of androstenedione supplementation.
Methods: Eight men (mean (SD) age 44.1 (3.0) years (range 40–48), weight 76.3 (9.4) kg, and percentage body fat 20.6 (6.7)) participated in a randomised, double blind, cross over, 2 × 28 day placebo controlled study. Subjects were tested on day 0 and 28 days after receiving 200 mg/day oral androstenedione and a placebo treatment with a 28 day washout period between treatments. Serum hormone concentrations were examined at baseline (time 0) and then at 30 minute intervals for 180 minutes to measure day 0 and day 28 pharmacokinetic responses. Analytes included androstenedione, total testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), oestradiol, and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). Lipid concentrations, weight, body composition, resting heart rate, and blood pressure were also measured.
Results: Analysis of integrated area under the curve (AUC) and time 0 hormonal concentrations by repeated measures multivariate analysis of variance (p<0.05) and Fisher’s post hoc analysis showed a significant increase in AUC for serum androstenedione at day 0 (108.3 (27.6) nmol/l) in the supplemented condition as compared with day 28 (43.4 (13.1) nmol/l) and placebo (2.1 (0.8) nmol/l) conditions. No other significant AUC changes were noted. After 28 days of supplementation, DHEAS levels were significantly elevated (p = 0.00002) at time 0 (12.9 (1.3) μmol/l) compared with placebo (7.0 (0.8) μmol/l) with a trend (p = 0.08) toward elevation of time 0 androstenedione concentrations (16.4 (7.0) nmol/l) compared with placebo (5.6 (0.4) nmol/l). No changes were found for lipids, resting heart rate, or blood pressure, weight, or percentage body fat.
Conclusion: Although supplementation with 200 mg/day androstenedione increases AUC for serum androstenedione in the day 0 condition, continued supplementation is characterised by a diminished treatment response, coupled with time 0 increases in testosterone precursors but not testosterone.
I had to upload the PDF to Mega.NZ which is great for storing files, It's completely encrypted and everything.Although there was a trend for muscle protein synthesis to increase, no significant differences were found between androstenedione and control groups using two different methods (three-pool model and precursor-product approach). On the contrary, there was a trend for muscle protein breakdown to be elevated, which was entirely attributable to androstenedione intake. The trend for an increase in protein breakdown after androstenedione treatment may have been the consequence of the increase in estradiol. In fact, it has been reported that long term exposure to estrogens
decreases muscle fiber size in rats (22). Overall, the trend for an increase in both protein breakdown and synthesis indicates
that androstenedione tended to increase muscle protein turnover. However, the increased turnover did not lead to muscle protein anabolism, as the increase in protein breakdown exceeded the increase in protein synthesis.
I really have done a lot of reading on the subject.Well, technically, the chemical structure of 4DHEA is very similar and it has to go through 2 enzyme conversions in order to complete it's pathway to testosterone. Check this article from PricePlow that explains the conversions for 1AD.
1-Andro / 1-Androsterone / 1-DHEA: Everything to Know
1-Androsterone is a prohormone also known as 1-Andro or 1-DHEA. This is the one LEGAL prohormone with LEGIT science behind it - and it WORKS!www.priceplow.com
I know that estrogen is anabolic, but with 4AD, you're unfortunately ending up with more estrogen than you are testosterone.
That's one of the studies, but I'm still hunting for the other one. Be patient, and I will find it for you
Check my updated post now, I found the study.I really have done a lot of reading on the subject.
Remember, similarity of structure doesn't mean that compounds will have the same effects, or side effects at all.
I appreciate the link to the article that says it cites a study. But even that article doesn't state that Androstenedione causes loss of muscle (of course).Check my updated post now, I found the study.
Yes im interestedThe problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
Weird. Does anybody else have experience with this?Absolutely true! I had a buddy of mine who was running the andro stack from Blackstone labs and during his run he went get bloodwork to see if his test was low enough to get TRT and it was... however.. his estrone levels was like 2000 or some **** lmao so it’s possible I told him that the 4-dhea turned to a bunch of androstenedione and that is known not to become estradiol but estrone I believe! Crazy ****!
Weird. Does anybody else have experience with this?Absolutely true! I had a buddy of mine who was running the andro stack from Blackstone labs and during his run he went get bloodwork to see if his test was low enough to get TRT and it was... however.. his estrone levels was like 2000 or some **** lmao so it’s possible I told him that the 4-dhea turned to a bunch of androstenedione and that is known not to become estradiol but estrone I believe! Crazy ****!
Yeah, it does but it's a banned compound. You might as well just get test.Screw 4-dhea.. what about 4-Androstenediol? Like the chemical pathway? Pretty sure it goes straight to testosterone
It says it plain as day.I appreciate the link to the article that says it cites a study. But even that article doesn't state that Androstenedione causes loss of muscle (of course).
... But back to the man's thread ...
No. Not the link I looked at. After you said you fixed a link I followed the one I thought you fixed. It did NOT say that.It says it plain as day.
If you'd like to start a thread on this, feel free.It says it plain as day.
If you'd like to start a thread on this, feel free.
Are you Pogue?I'll try and start a thread on it tomorrow and we can have a scientific discussion on the pros and cons on andro, in a civil discussion. I'll link back here when I post it. Be prepared to have your studies ready
its not aromatizing. its enzymatically converting into estrogen. this is way upstream of aromatase. which happens downstream once the PH has converted to test.So if it aromatizes so easilly, wouldnt it make sense to run an AI with it? Run enough AI and maybe it would convert to test at a much higher rate?
I have a bottle of it so im curious.
And as a separate note, ive read somewhere it can act as an antiandrogen, given that it has a weaker anabolic/androgenic activity than testosterone so when it and its metabolites bind to the AR they block the stronger androgens from binding.
You could always look at alpha stano by Alpha Gainz. Great product for a run like this. Plus with code chef 25% off.Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.
So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
You could always look at alpha stano by Alpha Gainz. Great product for a run like this. Plus with code chef 25% off.Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.
So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
Thanks buddy will take a look.You could always look at alpha stano by Alpha Gainz. Great product for a run like this. Plus with code chef 25% off.
Being Alpha, it's who you are, it's what you do!
makes the most hardcore supplements for gaining mass, building muscle, lean gains, cutting, analphagainz.com
1,4DHEA which converts to EQ is a good alternative. EQ is similar to test and provides a great appetite boost. Plus, the good thing about it is that 1,4androstendiol and dione are both safe and only convert to EQ and not estrogen directly.Glad I came across this. I was going to run around 6 weeks of the andros (1 & 4 ) i have left during this Covid-19 nightmare.
So I take it I shouldn't bother with the 4-Dhea then. The only other alternative I have kicking around is 19-Nor and epiandro...what do?
To be honest I didnt even consider 1,4 DHEA thanks. I'll look into that.1,4DHEA which converts to EQ is a good alternative. EQ is similar to test and provides a great appetite boost. Plus, the good thing about it is that 1,4androstendiol and dione are both safe and only convert to EQ and not estrogen directly.
Please get out your knowledge shovel..gona start a heavy confusing 4 andro cycle.. I would like to read that studyThe problem with 4DHEA is it converts not only to 4diol, but also androstenedione, which is estrogenic and can actually cause muscle loss. So, I would run it with a potent anti-estrogen for that purpose. I can dig up the study showing this if you're interested.
The full study is available here:Please get out your knowledge shovel..gona start a heavy confusing 4 andro cycle.. I would like to read that study
after 5 days of administration, lol.The full study is available here:
Androstenedione Does Not Stimulate Muscle Protein Anabolism in Young Healthy Men1
Androstenedione is the immediate precursor of testosterone. Androstenedione intake has been speculated to increase plasma testosterone levels and muscle anaboliacademic.oup.com
Well, regardless, after 5 days of administration they actually lost muscle. But, your point is valid, it is a very short study and a small sample group. But, the downsides of androstenedione should be very well known by now. That's why it was almost immediately replaced by androstenediol which cannot convert to estrogen and only converts directly to testosterone.after 5 days of administration, lol.
posting a study about a hormone which only covers 5 days of administration is totally worthless, imo.Well, regardless, after 5 days of administration they actually lost muscle. But, your point is valid, it is a very short study and a small sample group. But, the downsides of androstenedione should be very well known by now. That's why it was almost immediately replaced by androstenediol which cannot convert to estrogen and only converts directly to testosterone.
Are you not familiar with androstenedione and how it works and what it converts to and how it works? Again, there is a big reason it was dropped in favor of androstenediol.posting a study about a hormone which only covers 5 days of administration is totally worthless, imo.
Brother ... You seem to totally be missing the fact that some of the guys you are speaking with have MASSIVE amounts of knowledge. Both from books/papers and from decades (some as much as FOUR decades) of experience and research.Are you not familiar with androstenedione and how it works and what it converts to and how it works? Again, there is a big reason it was dropped in favor of androstenediol.
Androstenedione - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
you are really good at posting studys…. I ran the original oympus labs 4andro and epiandro while on trt for 2 months...I got blood tested towards the end of cycle and my test was 500 points higher. it nearly got me taken off trt, had to convince doc it was a fluke, when retested a month after cycle my test had returned almost to normal with it being only slightly above base--estrogen remained within range with only a slight increase....look at some of the reviews, my results were pretty much the norm.Are you not familiar with androstenedione and how it works and what it converts to and how it works? Again, there is a big reason it was dropped in favor of androstenediol.
Androstenedione - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
So, then I guess I don't understand why he would want to risk using it.Brother ... You seem to totally be missing the fact that some of the guys you are speaking with have MASSIVE amounts of knowledge. Both from books/papers and from decades (some as much as FOUR decades) of experience and research.
I can assure you that he's familiar with it.
refer to post #46So, then I guess I don't understand why he would want to risk using it.
I know.So, then I guess I don't understand why he would want to risk using it.
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