Q1. Hmm...Misleading name then, dontcha think! Without Winny, sounds like Formestane w/ other AIs & a Phytoserm... Not sure how that is much more like winny than any other formestane
A1 Its a name bro..
jungle warfare= open up a bottle and you are instantly knee deep in the poontang Vally?
Napalm= wow a supplement company is selling biological weapons?
No, its names so because of its similar actions but not "exact" actions. And it would only be misleading to some one who read the name of a product only to determine its uses and functions. Now I know you are not saying that you are that person are you? NAAAA.... But based off what you keep saying one would think you are..
Q2.
2. So because I don't have a study showing the exact line (even though we do KNOW it happens at some point), you somehow get to make up a number that works for you? Show ME a study that 250mg is not suppressive! Seems like the burden of proof would be on you (as a manufacturer), not me (as a consumer). And, incidentally, your 100mg a day number is underdosed from what I've read. 100mg 2x daily, with a downward taper half-way through, is what everything else I've seen about formestane recommends.
A2. My friend in any debate the burden of proving something is on the person who makes a claim of any kind in the first place. You are a active participant in this debate/conversation and if you make a claim, any claim at all. Then it is on "you" the person who made that claim to back it up and prove it.
"You" made the claim that its suppressive because of its "very light" conversion to 4-hydroxytestosterone. I asked you to show me a study in which you have seen it be suppressive. I asked "you" to back up what "you are saying" and you could not do this.. SO in stead "you" pull a cheap cop out and tell me its my job to prove what I say but not your job to prove anything you say.. WEAK MY MAN VERY WEAK!!!
Non the less let us move on.
Now I made the claims that formastane will not inhibit/or suppress the bodies production of tesosterone/ or androgens. And that ia what I intend to show.
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In each of these studies we can see that despite that fact that 4-hydroxyandrostenedione has also ( in some studies) shown to be a "very weak prohormone" to the anabolic steroid 4-hydroxytestosterone, as an aromatase inhibitor it also possesses notable testosterone stimulating properties. The use of 4-hydroxy 4-androstenedione gradually increase androgen levels while simultaneously decreasing estrogen and dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Natural androgen production is increased by the stimulation of the hypothalamic pituitary axis via an increase in luteinizing hormone (LH) levels coupled by the direct stimulation of testosterone by 4-hydroxy 4-androstenedione. Luteinizing hormone (LH) is responsible for the production of total serum testosterone and testicular function. Formastane gives a gradual decrease in estrogen blood concentration which produces a signal of the hypothalamic pituitary ( again despite its very weak conversion to 4-hydroxytestosterone).
Whatever "weak conversion activity" it may have is more than compensated for by its ability to drop estrogen levels. This action of course reduces the suppressive signal estrogen sends to your brain.
In all of these studies Formastane was shown to suppress estrogen concentrations at levels that were not high enough to suppress gonadotropins .
For the record you are correct 100mg twice a day is the "full dose" of formastane most people use and 100mg is what is in a "full dose" 10 pumps of forma-stanzol. And there is enough in that bottle to run a full dose for 5 weeks. I am glad you pointed out the fact that I say to only use 5 pumps twice a day during pct. This is because at this does it is "well bellow" a dose that could even begin to cause problems do to its light conversion to a anabolic.. However combined with the other phytoserms and 7-8-benso in the product. It is enough to block and reduce estrogen enough to raise test levels, regulate estrogen levels,block the suppression of GnRH release through modulation of the GABAergic receptor complex. Thank you very much for noticing.
Q3.
3.Is one of the most important parts of PCT not restoring estrogen and test at an equivalent ratio, thus improving cholesterol levels, libido issues, lethargy, etc. such that one doesn't have to take ANYTHING to maintain hormonal levels and good health? You state permanent inhibition of enzyme, and then say your body responds by making more enzyme (which it does). At what rate does the human body replace the enzyme? All at once? Over a year? Do we know? So after discontinuing Forma, like I stated, it very well could happen (depending on how low estrogen was to begin with, along with the lower SHBG and lower DHT) that someone gets gyno. Which is why one would taper, but to be honest, very rarely have I seen you mention tapering Forma in PCT.
A1. yes importaint and thanks for pointing out all that forma-stanzol does. Awesome. You have made one good point though. Tapering down of formastan formastanzol is not a bad Idea at all. So I think we found something we can agree on. Nice!!!!
Q4 and Q5.
4. True, but I guess I based my information on a misleading product name, didn't I (See this:
"FORMA-STANOZOLOL really is an amazing compound that should be a part of EVERY cycle
5. It's been a long time since I got really excited about a new anabolic steroid/Ai." That is a DIRECT QUOTE from you at: Invalid Link Removed. So I guess we were meant to be misled.
A 4 and 5.
Classic case of sipping out a little peace and making it say what you want it to say. Here let me rephrase the statement since you just have to nit pick it..
" It's been a long time since I got really excited about a new anabolic steroid OR A Ai.
But again we are sitting here discussing the fact that it can convert to a steroid ( at the very high end of dosing).. And it is also an AI that will have no effect on testosterone production and or androgen production when used at the lower end ( as seen in studies above)The fact that nether you nor I have seen a study in which it was used in a large enough dose for the conversion to a anabolic to be of any significance is also a great fact thanks for not coming up with a study that showed that. It further proved my point.
Q 6
6. So...Tamoxifen (and other SERMs) do NOT bind to estrogen receptors in breast tissue? Hmmmmmmmm...... I surely do feel foolish for using a SERM to prevent gyno.
you should my friend. Considering everyone and there brother knows you are only prolonging the problem that is just going to come right back once you come off. SERMS do not lower estrogen and only block them. Well on them estrogen levels go up not down.
Earlier in this discussion you very much acknowledged this fact when you wanted to use it as a "good reason" for using it in pct. But now you are overlooking it later? :suspect:
And finally your big one
Q8.
7. I would probably not mislead people by putting names of steroids in the name of my "non-steroidal" product if I didn't want people to think there were steroids in my supplement. And, again, when you say "It's been a long time since I got really excited about a new anabolic steroid/Ai", it sure sounds to me like you're advertising steroids in your product. And again, Formestane IS a steroid! Just saying! Yep, again, I sure feel like a fool! Mainly for arguing with you! I've seen people argue with you before, and they usually end up with you throwing mud, and people walking away. Great way to represent your brand big man. It still boggles my mind you actually told a newbie to use 30mg of Superdrol with no SERM as a first cycle. That right there makes you unreliable in my book. And I REALLY hope you know Nolva DOES prevent gyno, while allowing estrogen to rise/fall back to normal levels (tapered of course, as stated by UnrealMachine in the previously mentioned link), all the while stimulating LH to tell your testes to produce Testosterone. I just don't believe Forma does half of what ANY SERM does, and at twice the price. And, by decreasing SHBG by 34% like you claim on your website, that would unbind testosterone, making more test available to aromatize. And, while inhibiting DHT, even more estrogen. Regardless, I'm pretty sure you have effectively turned what could have been a good learning experience/informative thread into an embarassment for my participation. Good luck OP if you're gonna listen to this guy. You don't have to listen to me, but keep in mind, he's even telling you not to listen to HIS REP! According to UnrealMachine @ the Guide to Superdrol linked at the beginning of this post:
"Delayed-gyno: Delayed gyno is caused by an estrogen rebound and this is pretty common on compounds that cannot convert to estrogen themselves. On a SD cycle, the presence of SD will cause suppression of endogenous testosterone production, meaning low test on cycle; in turn, less test can aromatize into estrogen, and estrogen levels are low as well.
During post-cycle, as test levels return, estrogen can return in a "rebounding" spike that can cause gyno. This seems more common when an AI is used for PCT as this keeps estrogen levels suppressed even longer; when the AI is removed, estrogen levels spike up dramatically and cause gyno
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Ok in this last statement you did more of what you have been doing this whole time "repeating your self 20 times" You really should look into that problem my friend. Repeating your self over and over again does not prove the point any more it only serves to make you look less sure of your self.
I addressed almost all of this already and I unlike you do not need or like to have to repeat my self 100 times over. SO I WONT LOL.. I will just address anything new you might have brought up in this last part.
Ok I guess the statement you made about people debating with me " and they usually end up with you throwing mud" is a new one. I would ask you to show prof of your statement but we are all accustomed to you not having to do that and having to resort to some sort of cop out that puts the burden on me to disprove your statements that you made not me lol..
My friend I have over 110k post on one site, 20k on another, 10k on my own site and at least another 10k collectively added up on many other sites. I can show you my accounts on all of these sites to "prove what I say"
So I would ask you then to prove your statement. If the statement that "Most" of my conversations end in me slinging mud were to be even remotely close to a true statement. Then what percentage of my conversations would that have to be?
Would it be 75% of them? Maybe 50% of them? HMMM how about 20% or even 10%.. naaaa still to much to ask you to prove... OK how about we make it real simple and I ask you to show me 1 tiny measly stinking percent of my post that end in me slinging mud. SO go out and find me 1500 post of mine that ended with me slinging mud of any kind... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!! I bet you cant even find 150 let alone 1500.
Now for the record "I did not" give him this cycle. He thought the cycle up on his own and then asked what I thought. So Yes it should boggle your mind lmao.. And I agreed with about 3 people in this thread who said it was not the best cycle for a newb.. Where did you come up with the Idea that he came to me and said "I am new to steroids and I would like for you to design me a cycle" and then I handed him this cycle? I yess that is right you come up with the Idea the same way you have been coming up with almost all of your ideas thus fair. By reading to fair into things, judging things before you look into them, and making any wild statement ( 20 times) you think might support your cause.
Another statement made in your last post
"During post-cycle, as test levels return, estrogen can return in a "rebounding" spike that can cause gyno. This seems more common when an AI is used for PCT as this keeps estrogen levels suppressed even longer; when the AI is removed, estrogen levels spike up dramatically and cause gyno"
BOOM!!!!!!!! you are correct that estrogen will return in a rebounding spike. Serm will block estrogen from receptor well this is happening but will not "stop it" from happening. and when you come off the serm 4 weeks later you are correct gyno rebound is more likely to happen.
you are confusing a Ai with suicide aromatase inhibitors my friend.
Yes with an Ai what you are saying is possible but with a suicide aromatase inhibitor it is not! That has been my whole point all along... formastane functions as a false substrate for the aromatase enzyme, and is litigated to an average, which bonds in A time-dependent and irreversible manner to the active site of the enzyme causing its deactivation.
Let me further help you understand the difference and why one is good for pct (suicide aromatase inhibitors) and the other is not.
To understand why forma-stanzol may be useful while regular ai's (like Letro and A-dex) are not we'll need to first understand the differences between
the two. suicide aromatase inhibitors are actually steroidal compounds, while regular Ai's (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs ( no I don't mean STEROID LIKE YOU ARE HOPING LMOA)
Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs...both
suicidal and non suicidal AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI's. In the case of a suicide aromatase inhibitors the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation ( hence the name 4-hydroxy given to formastane) ; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis.
Now, on the other hand, most all other Ai are competitive inhibitors, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. Thus essentially they can actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Forma-stanzol is a suicide aromatase inhibitor meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don't need it anymore! Starting to understand now bro? Other Ai's need to remain present to continue their effects and this is why they are not the best choice for use during pct but forma-stanzol is..
In closing,
I have at times been a little big of a **** bag to ya during our conversation here good bro both in this post and in others and for that I am sorry. Some of what you have said is good advice and I know you only mean to help and serve the members of this site.
When people debate **** happens. But at the very least I think nether one of us have gotten down and dirty and started acting childish.. I razed you and you sure razed me back. At the end of the day that's all good and well.
I got no real beef with you bro I am simple debating a topic. A topic it would seem you feel passionate about and that is good. Some may point a finger at ether one of us and have something negative to say about this comment or that comment. However for the most part I think many people will point and say " great conversation and I learned a lot from all sides".
I have yet to see a good debate wherein each party disagreed yet swung from each others nuts at the same time. Its excepted and almost expected that ether side toss a couple of jabs at the other. So long as when the bell rings we both shake hands and then go to our respective corners.
Ding ding.
Your a good bro and I thank you for the conversation. I hope to see you are around more and talk with you about many other subjects like this one. :smirk:
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