fibercarbon
Banned
Sucks when there is a computer next to the dumbbells
haha i have an ab lounge next to my computer.. I heard there is an Island That is pre selling Supplements :type:
11-0X0 , Pro-Anabol, 3-AD
- Thread starter fibercarbon
- Start date
- Status
haha i have an ab lounge next to my computer.. I heard there is an Island That is pre selling Supplements :type:
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
this poll has about as much meaning as a poll on the best current NFL quarterbacks in which Brady Quinn is the winner
you guys don't seem to realize the huge leap it takes to go from product inception to actual product on the shelves.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
concerning the methylation question.
what ALRI was talking about was a 17beta-methyl ether.
-OMe
normally androgens are 17beta-hydroxyls
-OH
there is no literature that i have ever seen to show that these methyl ethers have any activity. In fact, the addition of a methyl to the 17beta oxygen atom drastically changes the electrochemical properties of the hydroxyl group (eliminating the potential for hydrogen bonding and making it much less polar). since this hydroxyl group is known to be the most important functional group on the molecule when it comes to receptor binding, this more than likely will result in a weakly or non-active compound.
In other words, it would be very very surprising if a methyl-ether derivative of an androgen does anything at all.
but is this product supposed to be an androgen? or a derivative of a dhea metabolite?
what ALRI was talking about was a 17beta-methyl ether.
-OMe
normally androgens are 17beta-hydroxyls
-OH
there is no literature that i have ever seen to show that these methyl ethers have any activity. In fact, the addition of a methyl to the 17beta oxygen atom drastically changes the electrochemical properties of the hydroxyl group (eliminating the potential for hydrogen bonding and making it much less polar). since this hydroxyl group is known to be the most important functional group on the molecule when it comes to receptor binding, this more than likely will result in a weakly or non-active compound.
In other words, it would be very very surprising if a methyl-ether derivative of an androgen does anything at all.
but is this product supposed to be an androgen? or a derivative of a dhea metabolite?
bubsnt3
Member
Thanks for a scientific response. They are saying that it has a 17 hydroxyl group. This is what they are saying:
"ALR Industries brings you with their patent status MDHR™ the very first highly bioavailable and truly potent derivative of a naturally occurring plant based ecdysteroid. The base compound is called Dihydrorubrosterone, a naturally occurring ecdysteroid that is notably absent of the cholesterol group at position-17, but has a hydroxyl group at the all important 17-position. Furthermore, we have added a17-position methyl ether to increase both the bioavailability and overall potency."
The explaination is appreciated..
This is also thrown in:
Actually it is the cholesterol side chain of ecdysteroids that inhibits the possibility for any degree of notable androgen receptor (AR) stimulation and obviously as well potentially higher potency and transcriptional activity. For a steroidal structure to properly engage the AR-receptor there must be a hydroxyl group at the 17 position of the compound.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
they are putting a methyl ether on the C17 position. you missed the sentence:
"Furthermore, we have added a17-position methyl ether to increase both the bioavailability and overall potency."
now i just did look into this compound and indeed it is an anomaly among phytosterols in that it is absent the big carbon side chain and has a 17beta-hydroxyl instead (as they point out).
however it also has a 6-keto group which is known to kill receptor binding (this is why 6-oxo is not active as an androgen). It also has a double bond at 7 and 3 other hydroxyls at 3,2,and 14. lord knows what this combination does. likely makes the stuff too polar to even enter cells in the first place (passive diffusion requires sufficient lipid solubility)
it is very unlikely that this compound has any substantial androgen receptor binding even in its parent form, let alone after you kill the 17beta-OH with a methyl ether
this product sounds like a little bit of scientific research chucked in with massive amounts of wishful thinking. wishful thinking that is against all reasonable chances
bubsnt3
Member
Many thanks... I guess I'll waite on this one then..
bubsnt3
Member
PA can you tell me if it was dmt that had a spike of 255...
I saw the report on epi max and it had 3 spikes. 255, 270, and 288. If I remember correctlly, 288 and 270 were thought to be to be the 2a,3a and 2b,3b isomers. It was also said that if it lost the sulfer going through the GC it would come through as dmt. That would explain the 255 spike (if that is the correct MS spike for dmt)
I saw the report on epi max and it had 3 spikes. 255, 270, and 288. If I remember correctlly, 288 and 270 were thought to be to be the 2a,3a and 2b,3b isomers. It was also said that if it lost the sulfer going through the GC it would come through as dmt. That would explain the 255 spike (if that is the correct MS spike for dmt)
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
you need to go back to the books and read the fundamentals of Mass Spec again. the are not called spikes, they are called fragments. And there are dozens of fragments for each compound. a fragment is formed when the electron beam from the Mass spec hits the compound in the high vacuum environment. one compound will break down into many many fragments of widely varying size. these fragments are then seperated out by a large magnet and then recorded by a detector.
the fragment with the highest molecular weight (technically the highest "mass to charge ratio") number is called the molecular ion peak. it usually is the original compound minus an electron, so it represents the molecular weight of the compound (usually).
the fragment that is most abundant is the parent ion - this is the most stable fragment.
all the fragments other than the molecular ion are due to the loss of parts of the parent compound. a methyl here, a carboxylate ion here, etc. etc.
as far as this epi **** goes, the MW of both isomers is the same (after all, they are isomers). 320
however when they hit the injection port of the GC they lose a sulfur atom (atomic weight 32). when these lose sulfur they turn into DMT. once they elute from the GC column and enter the mass spec they are already in the form of DMT
that is why the Molecular ion of both of these is 288. 320-32=288.
the mass spec also knocks off a water (18) from the 17beta-OH so you get 270 as another peak.
loss of a methyl radical (15) from 17alpha along with the water will give 255. i think this is the parent ion. which would make sense, since the methyl and OH hanging off at C17 are the easiest to knock off. Everything else is part of the more stable basic four ring sterod nucleus
bubsnt3
Member
Great information, thank you. As you gathered I do not know much about GC/MS, thanks for the info. So is there then no difference between a compound that gets only 270 (epistane) and the compounds that get multiple fragments.
Also this is why I thought that it indicated different compounds/isomers:
had one single peak at retention time of 19.10 min with ions of 288, 270, and 255. The ions found are similar to other products for this compound; however the retention time does not match, which suggests a different compound or isomer than the others.
That is from the lab analysis
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
all compounds get multiple fragments
epistane got dozens of fragments. 270 was simply the highest molecular weight fragment
bubsnt3
Member
So they are all justified. Thanks...
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
i dunno what you are saying but
epistane had a molecular ion of 270.
havoc and hemaguno had a molecular ion of 288 - so did one of the batches of epistane but it was recalled (i think they recalled the real stuff and went with the mystery compound!!)
288 is the expected molecular ion after the chemical compound loses a sulfur in the injection port of the GC, not 270.
IBE tried to make the argument that dehydration of the 17beta-hydroxy can also happen in the GC because it has a methyl group at alpha (making it a tertiary hydroxyl - prone to dehydration). That would give a molecular ion of 270. However i have injected hundreds of methylated androgens in my GC and not once have i seen this happen.
this is why i said that havoc and hemaguno appear to be the real compound and epistane appears to be something else.
i am not a blabbermouth wannabe chemist with no real world experience. i do not talk out my ass. when i talk about the chemistry of steroid hormones its from a position of authority. I dunno who dr. d is, or anyone else really, but i think you know who i am and i have been making and testing steroids for over 10 years
i thought this died a long time ago. jeezus
macedaddy
Board Sponsor
yeah, so lets leave it dead...........................:rant:
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
word
it was too technical for 99.9% of people to comprehend which is why it ended up at a standstill
there will never be a conclusion unless someone comes up with a bunch of money to fund a comprehensive analytical investigation by some sophisticated lab. and that is not going to happen
and even if it did, there would still be people that would debate the findings
so f it
bigschmidt821
Oldtimer
i think we are leaving it dead cuz we dnt want dhrama patrick, the science isnt uncomprehensive its simply reading and studying. but i agree f it and lets all be done with it
- Status