1-Andro OTC PCT

123123 said:
Are there any OTC AI's that would be effective in pathway regulation, or just the ones you named? Would DHEA need to be cycled? I've read in various places that it can be run year long at 25 mg.
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It can be. There’s a possibility that transdermal indole 3, DIM, and other junk like that might actually be somewhat effective for median dhea doses. But it won’t touch a high dose.

I would try Apex Alchemy Eclipse. It’s a legal otc transdermal AI that according to some works fairly well and according to others not well enough. So your mileage may vary. Just pump it onto the skin of the chest and inner forearms, rub it in good.
 
Old Witch said:
It can be. There’s a possibility that transdermal indole 3, DIM, and other junk like that might actually be somewhat effective for median dhea doses. But it won’t touch a high dose.

I would try Apex Alchemy Eclipse. It’s a legal otc transdermal AI that according to some works fairly well and according to others not well enough. So your mileage may vary. Just pump it onto the skin of the chest and inner forearms, rub it in good.
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Ok, thanks. I'll check some logs.

And in regards to Epi-Andro: Anything I should know regarding PCT? Potential estro rebound? Are AI's necessary? Or does its inability to aromatase prevent this? Standard low volume, high intensity protocol for 4-8 weeks?

Most importantly, if Epi's primary function is to enable cutting, how do I prevent a rebound in fat gain if PCT requires somewhat of a caloric surplus in order to fully enable recovery?
 
123123 said:
Are there any OTC AI's that would be effective in pathway regulation, or just the ones you named? Would DHEA need to be cycled? I've read in various places that it can be run year long at 25 mg.
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Just trying to help you a little man ...... The only time I ever take DHEA (personally), is when I need to up my Estrogen (which is almost never).
 
"Arimistane, this is barely anti aromatase, mildly anti cortisol, somewhat androgenic, drying."

Old Witch, that is the best written description I think I've seen for Arimistane.
 
Renew1 said:
Just trying to help you a little man ...... The only time I ever take DHEA (personally), is when I need to up my Estrogen (which is almost never).
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Hey, that's fine. I appreciate that. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is the conversion pathways are not guaranteed with an otc AI like Apex Alchemy Eclipse. Because the logs are conflicting and may depend on severity or individual.
 
123123 said:
Hey, that's fine. I appreciate that. Correct me if I'm wrong but what you're saying is the conversion pathways are not guaranteed with an otc AI like Apex Alchemy Eclipse. Because the logs are conflicting and may depend on severity or individual.
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Well.... I've never attempted to run DHEA as an anabolic/androgen, because of it's very high conversion rate to Estrogen in my body. So, maybe you could get some benefit from it, running something like that with it .... I just don't know.

But no, I can't guarantee that the OTC AI you run with DHEA will sufficiently curtail it's conversion to Estrogen.
..... Because that is what you would be attempting..... To cut back on the conversion to Estro... and allow whatever other conversions normally happen tp continue (to Test, for instance).

It might work... I just haven't tried it.
 
Renew1 said:
Well.... I've never attempted to run DHEA as an anabolic/androgen, because of it's very high conversion rate to Estrogen in my body. So, maybe you could get some benefit from it, running something like that with it .... I just don't know.

But no, I can't guarantee that the OTC AI you run with DHEA will sufficiently curtail it's conversion to Estrogen.
..... Because that is what you would be attempting..... To cut back on the conversion to Estro... and allow whatever other conversions normally happen tp continue (to Test, for instance).

It might work... I just haven't tried it.
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Ok, interesting. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

The impression I'm getting is that epi-andro has a high probability outcome for success; and minimized risk with OTC compared to others. Do you have any knowledge regarding the above questions? I'll just copy and paste it in bold below.

Anything I should know regarding PCT? Potential estro rebound? Are AI's necessary? Or does its inability to aromatase prevent this? Standard low volume, high intensity protocol for 4-8 weeks?

Most importantly, if Epi's primary function is to enable cutting, how do I prevent a rebound in fat gain if PCT requires somewhat of a caloric surplus in order to fully enable recovery?
 
This thread is still poppin’...wow! Well I think we all respect your thirst for knowledge....

I started off with EpiAndro and and at about week 3.5 I stacked it with AndroHard. I’m a seasoned lifter but held off on hormonal products til a few months ago. I’ve tried multiple natural stacks and the previous mentioned one, blows them away...Confidence, aggression and a physique pop, is what you can expect. Nothing more, nothing less. IT IS A GATEWAY DRUG. Are you prepared for that?

Training ‘off’ isn’t quite the same at all. I recovered fine with Olympus Labs super pct, but theres a letdown feeling for a bit.

And this is just EpiAndro. Its not spectacular but it’s enough....
I’m researching plenty of next options, (I actually just ordered “sup3r epi” for 40 bucks, found it on amazon!)

There’s no “one light, easy ph cycle” and anything decent will require a serm. That’s my point.

...These dudes on here are fukin’ veterans of the game. They’ve been pretty fair in setting you straight.
 
Rad83 said:
This thread is still poppin’...wow! Well I think we all respect your thirst for knowledge....

I started off with EpiAndro and and at about week 3.5 I stacked it with AndroHard. I’m a seasoned lifter but held off on hormonal products til a few months ago. I’ve tried multiple natural stacks and the previous mentioned one, blows them away...Confidence, aggression and a physique pop, is what you can expect. Nothing more, nothing less. IT IS A GATEWAY DRUG. Are you prepared for that?

Training ‘off’ isn’t quite the same at all. I recovered fine with Olympus Labs super pct, but theres a letdown feeling for a bit.

And this is just EpiAndro. Its not spectacular but it’s enough....
I’m researching plenty of next options, (I actually just ordered “sup3r epi” for 40 bucks, found it on amazon!)

There’s no “one light, easy ph cycle” and anything decent will require a serm. That’s my point.

...These dudes on here are fukin’ veterans of the game. They’ve been pretty fair in setting you straight.
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Thanks, I guess. The conclusion we've all reached at this point on is that this is not a binary issue and some PH's are lighter than others and are actually manageable through OTC. Now it's just a matter of identifying which, and how to manage them OTC with lowest probability possible of negative outcome.

So are you saying you used olympus labs super pct with epi? What was your logic behind this? Any other supps or solo?
 
123123 said:
Thanks, I guess. The conclusion we've all reached at this point on is that this is not a binary issue and some PH's are lighter than others and are actually manageable through OTC. Now it's just a matter of identifying which, and how to manage them OTC with lowest probability possible of negative outcome.

So are you saying you used olympus labs super pct with epi? What was your logic behind this? Any other supps or solo?
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Yes Olympus Labs super pct....Didn’t feel majorly suppressed but wanted to run something...

(I ran a liver detox complex supplement from my local giant grocery store)
 
123123 said:
Thanks, I guess. The conclusion we've all reached at this point on is that this is not a binary issue and some PH's are lighter than others and are actually manageable through OTC. Now it's just a matter of identifying which, and how to manage them OTC with lowest probability possible of negative outcome.

So are you saying you used olympus labs super pct with epi? What was your logic behind this? Any other supps or solo?
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Actually, I never stated that conclusion.

Here's my conclusion.... Anything worth running, will shut me down, and require a SERM to help insure a restart. If it doesn't require a SERM, it really isn't worth running, in my book.
 
Renew1 said:
Actually, I never stated that conclusion.

Here's my conclusion.... Anything worth running, will shut me down, and require a SERM to help insure a restart. If it doesn't require a SERM, it really isn't worth running, in my book.
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I agree. If it doesn’t shut you down it isn’t going to give gains that are worth tanking your lipids for. Why run something weak for minimal gains that will still be harsh on your cardiovascular system? Might as well run nothing at all and keep your health.
 
Could I take a dump and not wipe my ass? Sure, but I wouldn’t want to.

The same could be said for PCT. Think of it as a SERMS as tp and box of wipes. Could you get away with running strictly OTC? Sure, it won’t kill you, but expect to lose gains, libido, and energy. Why run at all if you net nothing in the end?

There’s no free lunch. If OTC could be done safely and reliably...no one would go through the trouble of getting their hands on SERMS. Grab some natty supps and keep your balls working. It’s not like the andros will give you something you couldn’t do with consistent diet and hard training + time. Just some food for thought.
 
JoePaul39 said:
I agree. If it doesn’t shut you down it isn’t going to give gains that are worth tanking your lipids for. Why run something weak for minimal gains that will still be harsh on your cardiovascular system? Might as well run nothing at all and keep your health.
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That's a question to ask people who have ran epi, I suppose.
 
Renew1 said:
Actually, I never stated that conclusion.

Here's my conclusion.... Anything worth running, will shut me down, and require a SERM to help insure a restart. If it doesn't require a SERM, it really isn't worth running, in my book.
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To be fair, not everyone has the same objective. Or has the same definition of "worth running". Putting on huge amounts of LBM is a plus, but not really a priority.

Personally, something that enhances recovery and adds strength with minimal (don't need a SERM) suppression that's more effective than run of the mill test boosters would be perfectly acceptable for me. That would be my definition of worth running and an acceptable cost/benefit ratio. But I'm sure it varies between all of us.
 
123123 said:
To be fair, not everyone has the same objective. Or has the same definition of "worth running". Putting on huge amounts of LBM is a plus, but not really a priority.

Personally, something that enhances recovery and adds strength with minimal (don't need a SERM) suppression that's more effective than run of the mill test boosters would be perfectly acceptable for me. That would be my definition of worth running and an acceptable cost/benefit ratio. But I'm sure it varies between all of us.
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Well, the thing with otc pct is it’s just run of the mill test boosters...

And, I mean, we kind of know they don’t work.

And, you should look into GDAs.

And there are lots of legal otc supplements containing real ergogenic aids. They’re legal for you to possess and use the product. It may be illegal for the makers to put that ergogenic aid in a product meant for humans, but the product is labeled for use by humans, the substance is legal to possess, and you in good faith have bought it as a legal product OTC.

Is that a wide enough grey area? You’re not lying when you say you’re not taking anything illegal. It’s a legal product labeled for human consumption.

If so, first stop, get some Somatozine. It’s a fantastic sleep supplement. It’s got mk677 and melatonin in it. Labeled for human consumption. Completely nonsuppressive, you can take it indefinitely, and it will change your sleep for so much the better. Fantastic recovery.

Next stop PM me and I’ll show you a store with a ton of stuff labeled for human use that is all next level that you can buy in good faith protection. Sarms and designer steroids and great BOGO deals all over the place. And they vet the products, anything that’s not what it says it is, is gone.
 
Old Witch said:
Well, the thing with otc pct is it’s just run of the mill test boosters...

And, I mean, we kind of know they don’t work.

And, you should look into GDAs.

And there are lots of legal otc supplements containing real ergogenic aids. They’re legal for you to possess and use the product. It may be illegal for the makers to put that ergogenic aid in a product meant for humans, but the product is labeled for use by humans, the substance is legal to possess, and you in good faith have bought it as a legal product OTC.

Is that a wide enough grey area? You’re not lying when you say you’re not taking anything illegal. It’s a legal product labeled for human consumption.

If so, first stop, get some Somatozine. It’s a fantastic sleep supplement. It’s got mk677 and melatonin in it. Labeled for human consumption. Completely nonsuppressive, you can take it indefinitely, and it will change your sleep for so much the better. Fantastic recovery.

Next stop PM me and I’ll show you a store with a ton of stuff labeled for human use that is all next level that you can buy in good faith protection. Sarms and designer steroids and great BOGO deals all over the place. And they vet the products, anything that’s not what it says it is, is gone.
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GDA's? Like Glucose Disposal Agents? Something like Glycolog from blackstone? Or are you referring to something different?

My concern with MK-677 are the NCBI indicating heightened fear response when administrated to rats. No human trials in this area, however, so I suppose the lack of similar follow up studies and human trials could stand as a counter-argument to that. If you have any others (in support or against) I'm open to listening.

I'll send you a pm about that, thanks for the help man.
 
123123 said:
GDA's? Like Glucose Disposal Agents? Something like Glycolog from blackstone? Or are you referring to something different?

My concern with MK-677 are the NCBI indicating heightened fear response when administrated to rats. No human trials, however, so I suppose the lack of similar follow up studies and human trials could stand as a counter-argument to that. If you have any others (in support or against) I'm open to listening.

I'll send you a pm about that, thanks man.
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No human trial, you’re joking.

It can be and is prescribed. It is not scheduled however, and can be put into supplements for humans with little recourse until the fda sends the company a C&D. Which it has not as of yet.

It’s fair game.
 
Old Witch said:
No human trial, you’re joking.

It can be and is prescribed. It is not scheduled however, and can be put into supplements for humans with little recourse until the fda sends the company a C&D. Which it has not as of yet.

It’s fair game.
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To be sold, I assume. But what about use? The US CRN has on their website stated that SARMS are illegal to use despite it technically being legal to buy them (as research chems). Though MK-677 is technically not a SARM, according to what I'm reading.

Do you have a source you can cite to confirm with absolute certainty Somatozine or MK-677 is legal for human consumption? If it's not at your fingertips don't bother, I don't expect you to look for me, and you've been a fantastic source of information thus far.

Also, GDA: Glucose Disposal Agents? Is that correct? Is the supplement I named (Glycolog) solid in your opinion?
 
123123 said:
To be sold, I assume. But what about use? The US CRN has on their website stated that SARMS are illegal to use despite it technically being legal to buy them (as research chems). Though MK-677 is technically not a SARM, according to what I'm reading.

Do you have a source you can cite to confirm with absolute certainty Somatozine or MK-677 is legal for human consumption? If it's not at your fingertips don't bother, I don't expect you to look for me, and you've been a fantastic source of information thus far.

Also, GDA: Glucose Disposal Agents? Is that correct? Is the supplement I named (Glycolog) solid in your opinion?
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Glycolog sucks. Titan prescribes Mk, so it HAS TO be legal to consume, it is unscheduled.


Anything labeled and sold OTC for human consumption is legal for you the consumer to use, regardless of if the company broke the law by putting that in there. It’s called good faith. It’s a legal fact.
 
I see absolutely nothing on the Cousil for Responsible Nutrition about sarms being illegal to consume.

I see that they are mentioned as illegal, as in illegal for a manufacturer to place into a product for human consumption, such as a supplement.

Again, I’m certain you have the law twisted.
 
Anything which is an unscheduled substance IS LAWFUL for you to possess and consume at your own risk. Unless you are violating a legal agreement such as buying a product labeled “not for human consumption” and that umbrella covers any product whether it’s labeled as a supplement or just a bag without label.
 
SERMS such as tamoxifen and clomiphene are scheduled compounds.

Sarms are not.
 
Andros fall under the same gray area as all other designer steroids and sarms.
 
Rad83 said:
Definitely. There’s a reason vitamin shoppe and gnc ain’t sellin’ em...
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But I remember a time...not long ago when you could swing by a GNC or a VS and get some ATD, 1,3, some killer Gaspari products , and/or a whole host of other stuff. Granted, you weren’t picking up a bottle of superdrol...but it was a far cry from what they are today.

They still sell that Cell-Tech tho...
 
irishiron300 said:
But I remember a time...not long ago when you could swing by a GNC or a VS and get some ATD, 1,3, some killer Gaspari products , and/or a whole host of other stuff. Granted, you weren’t picking up a bottle of superdrol...but it was a far cry from what they are today.

They still sell that Cell-Tech tho...
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Yeah there used to actually be a reason for those stores to exist.
 
Old Witch said:
I see absolutely nothing on the Cousil for Responsible Nutrition about sarms being illegal to consume.

I see that they are mentioned as illegal, as in illegal for a manufacturer to place into a product for human consumption, such as a supplement.

Again, I’m certain you have the law twisted.
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"Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) are potentially dangerous and illegal for use in performance–enhancing products".

The wording is a bit non-specific, but your interpretation makes significantly more sense than mine. You're right, I probably do have it twisted. Ok so if it's labeled for human consumption then it's legal for me to consume.

But if it's not (ex. For research purposes only, not for human consumption, ect.) then I assume the legal liability is no longer on the manufacturer, but myself.

So it all depends on the label guidelines.
 
Old Witch said:
Androsterone, 11oxo, 5at, bAET, 7oh, 7keto, arimistane, dhea.

I will go into detail

Androsterone is the alpha isomer of epiandro. It is stronger, has a positive mood effect, and is harder to get large doses of. It has mainly a mood and strength effect with no anabolism.

11oxo is a prohormone to 11kt. This is anti cortisol mainly, with mild anabolism, drying, and strength effect.

5AT is anti cortisol, drying, with no mood anabolism or strength

7OH similar to 5AT

bAET, this has an immune boosting effect, with mild mood and drying effects

7Keto this is a metabolite of dhea which increases metabolic rate even in a deficit and blocks some cortisol.

Arimistane, this is barely anti aromatase, mildly anti cortisol, somewhat androgenic, drying.

DHEA this is the mother hormone. It is a prohormone to testosterone and estrogen as well as androsterone and epiandrosterone, 7OH, 5AT, bAET, arimistane and 7 keto.

Dhea is best used with a strong aromatase inhibitor such as exemestane or anastrozole. High doses may cause shutdown. I have not seen up to 200mg causing shutdown.
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I had no idea arimistane was androgenic

Very interesting
 
OP, Have you considered a good natural stack? ...You’ll gain an edge and not have to stress about pct.
 
123123 said:
"Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) are potentially dangerous and illegal for use in performance–enhancing products".

The wording is a bit non-specific, but your interpretation makes significantly more sense than mine. You're right, I probably do have it twisted. Ok so if it's labeled for human consumption then it's legal for me to consume.

But if it's not (ex. For research purposes only, not for human consumption, ect.) then I assume the legal liability is no longer on the manufacturer, but myself.

So it all depends on the label guidelines.
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You nailed it right on the head, brother.
 
Rad83 said:
OP, Have you considered a good natural stack? ...You’ll gain an edge and not have to stress about pct.
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Yeah. For about 11 years. Using NCBI's, forum bloods and clinical research as references for IDing and prioritizing specific compounds.

Short answer is yes.

I don't know much at all about PH's SARMS, the grey area stuff though. Also the label info (research chem vs human use legality) is completely new information to me.
 
Old Witch said:
Glycolog sucks. Titan prescribes Mk, so it HAS TO be legal to consume, it is unscheduled.


Anything labeled and sold OTC for human consumption is legal for you the consumer to use, regardless of if the company broke the law by putting that in there. It’s called good faith. It’s a legal fact.
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Any specific GDA's you'd recommend I look at?
 
123123 said:
Any specific GDA's you'd recommend I look at?
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Insuligen from MA supplements. Same company who makes somatozine. It’s an “anabolic” gda. And it’s supposed to avoid AMPk overstimulation so you can use it to get big, instead of being overly catabolic like most GDAs.
 
Old Witch said:
Anything which is an unscheduled substance IS LAWFUL for you to possess and consume at your own risk. Unless you are violating a legal agreement such as buying a product labeled “not for human consumption” and that umbrella covers any product whether it’s labeled as a supplement or just a bag without label.
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What about non compliant designer steroids like DMZ labeled for human consumption? Can you cite a statute you are basing this on?
 
JoePaul39 said:
What about non compliant designer steroids like DMZ labeled for human consumption? Can you cite a statute you are basing this on?
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It’s called “Good Faith” you as a consumer are protected whenever anyone puts something they oughtnt into a supplement because you, the consumer, bought a product which was a legal compound and the company who sold it labeled it for consumer sales. You’re not at fault. You’re the victim.
 
I shouldn’t need to cite a statute, it’s common sense. You can’t be prosecuted for buying a product containing a legal compound.
 
123123 said:
Thank you for the polite response. I really appreciate that. As far as the job is concerned, they will find out. Zero question about it. No testing, but if it's legal, it's ok in their book. Forgive me if I don't understand the meaning of DT. I can't answer that question until I do.

130 mg a day Chosen-1 or 130 mg a day Steel supplements 1-andro (recommended dose).

Another OTC supp I'm looking at is E. Cottoni which has outperformed tamoxifen in breast tumor suppression and been shown to act as an effective hormone modulater in the three studies titled:

Changes in rats’ breast tumor ultrastructure and immune and messenger RNA responses caused by dietary Seaweed (Kappaphycus alvarezii) extract

Polyphenol-rich seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii) extract suppresses breast tumour via hormone modulation and apoptosis induction

Comparison of tamoxifen with edible seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) extract in suppressing breast tumor

The opposing argument would be that they were performed on rats. I'm unaware of any human trials that have been performed. However there appear to have been bloods posted on this website to demonstrate it's effectiveness (in addition to Letrone, an AI).

Title (on AM website)
Post PH blood test results - PCT Black Lion Rebirth + Letrone

Vujades BLR Rebirth Log - its time to get the boyz back!
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DT = Drug Test
 
JoePaul39 said:
What about non compliant designer steroids like DMZ labeled for human consumption? Can you cite a statute you are basing this on?
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I contacted the FDA Office of Dietary Supplement Programs by phone and asked them the specific policy in regards to consuming dietary supplements. If the supplement is labeled and advertised as a "dietary supplement", legal liability falls on the vendor/producer, and the consumer cannot be held legally liable under any circumstance.

Old Witch was 100% correct.

I have not confirmed whether or not consuming substances labeled "for research purposes only" is explicitly illegal. My statement in regards to that is based on forums and synopsis websites. I err'd on the side of caution, assuming these statements were true but it is possible that I may be wrong.
 
123123 said:
I contacted the FDA Office of Dietary Supplement Programs by phone and asked them the specific policy in regards to consuming dietary supplements. If the supplement is labeled and advertised as a "dietary supplement", legal liability falls on the vendor/producer, and the consumer cannot be held legally liable under any circumstance.

Old Witch was 100% correct.

I have not confirmed whether or not consuming substances labeled "for research purposes only" is explicitly illegal. My statement in regards to that is based on forums and synopsis websites. I err'd on the side of caution, assuming these statements were true but it is possible that I may be wrong.
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Hmmm.... So all I need to do is find a dealer who will label his oxycontin "dietary supplement", and I can buy and bang that stuff all day long without fear of legal ramifications.
 
Renew1 said:
Hmmm.... So all I need to do is find a dealer who will label his oxycontin "dietary supplement", and I can buy and bang that stuff all day long without fear of legal ramifications.
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Pretty sure this is the case, however, generally speaking this only works with unscheduled compounds.
 
Nice, from the sounds of it, even with research only type products, it's legal for you to have, just as long as you don't consume it, and pretty much the only way to prove that would be for someone to actually witness you doing so.
 
Nice, from the sounds of it, even with research only type products, it's legal for you to have, just as long as you don't consume it, and pretty much the only way to prove that would be for someone to actually witness you doing so.
 
As far as things labeled not for human consumption, I believe it constitutes a breach of sales contract on your part, as you signed one electronically stating you will not consume this or give it to humans.
 
Now, plain raws, not labeled “not for human consumption” you can consume legally. They’re still unapproved by the FDA so you can’t legally give it to anyone to consume. Again that falls under vendor, not consumer.
 
But since this is the case there is no reason not to buy lots of unscheduled “unlabeled” compounds. Which are legal to possess and consume as is. 🐼 has tons of raws of every sort, sarms, serms, prohormone... Shipped from China. Passes customs.
 
Old Witch said:
As far as things labeled not for human consumption, I believe it constitutes a breach of sales contract on your part, as you signed one electronically stating you will not consume this or give it to humans.
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Sure, but I can't imagine the company selling it would want to go after someone for that, and even if they did want to, they would never be able to prove you did it, and even if you admitted to it, you paid for it, they have no actual damages. I think at best, they would be able to ban you from buying from then again.

But the real question would be if you bought something labeled not for human consumption at a supplement store, would the breach of contract be on the supplement store because it's implied that a supplement store sells supplements and not research chemicals?
 
Old Witch said:
Pretty sure this is the case, however, generally speaking this only works with unscheduled compounds.
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I agree. I couldn’t imagine it could apply to scheduled substances. I just wonder about compounds like DMZ that aren’t explicitly scheduled by name, but their chemical structure would qualify it as a scheduled substance?
 
CorpKiller said:
DT = Drug Test
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Understood, thanks for clarification. At this time, I am not aware of a DT or ban on any legally consumable supplements.
Anabaholic said:
Nice, from the sounds of it, even with research only type products, it's legal for you to have, just as long as you don't consume it, and pretty much the only way to prove that would be for someone to actually witness you doing so.
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Yes, technically I believe that is the case based on current research. Though as I said before, I have not verified it through any sort of official channels.

This would be fine for most people but not in my case as violating any substance consumption laws is not an option.
 
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