1-andro/4-andro/19-nor

marcone

New member
I just picked up Chaos and Pain Chem-1, Chem-4 and Chem-X along with Alpha PCT.

I am planning to cycle like this:

1st cycle: Chem-1 + Chem-4 for 8 weeks... 4 weeks off with Alpha PCT

2nd cycle: Chem-X + Chem-4 for 8 weeks... 4 weeks off with Alpha PCT

A few questions before I jump into it though:

- Do I need to take on cycle support while taking these? I still have 1 bottle of OL k1ngsguard. Not sure what else is needed, if anything.

- Do I need any anti estrogen? If so what’s recommended. Would arimidex be overkill?

- Do I need to get some pct like clomid or nolva? Or is the alpha pct enough?

- I’ve seen people talking about using Epi-Andro in quite a few threads, any need to add that here or just roll with what I have for now?


Any other tips/advice before I begin the cycles would be greatly appreciated!
 
Could do with some stats OP (current age, training history, height, weight, BF etc) but I’m guessing first cycle? Also what doses you running?

To answer your questions though:

- yes you need on cycle support. K1ngsguard/CEL cycle assist/Ar1mcare pro all good choices.

- 4andro converts so although it’s very possible you won’t need an AI the smart move is to get a pharma grade one on hand (even compounds that don’t convert can cause estro problems). Only use it if gyno symptoms show up

- yes you need clomid or nolva IMO. Lots of threads on this recently with people suggesting you can recover from an andro cycle without one - whilst this is probably true it’ll take longer and you’ll lose more/all of what you gained in the time it takes (and obviously the whole point of running a cycle is gains). So yes, get a proper serm for pct.

- I used epiandro alongside 1 and 4 andro last year and love the compound, great taken pwo. However, you already have 3 compounds going on and assuming it’s a first or second cycle I wouldn’t add something else at this stage. See how you react to your proposed stack first.
 
Whisky said:
Could do with some stats OP (current age, training history, height, weight, BF etc) but I’m guessing first cycle? Also what doses you running?

To answer your questions though:

- yes you need on cycle support. K1ngsguard/CEL cycle assist/Ar1mcare pro all good choices.

- 4andro converts so although it’s very possible you won’t need an AI the smart move is to get a pharma grade one on hand (even compounds that don’t convert can cause estro problems). Only use it if gyno symptoms show up

- yes you need clomid or nolva IMO. Lots of threads on this recently with people suggesting you can recover from an andro cycle without one - whilst this is probably true it’ll take longer and you’ll lose more/all of what you gained in the time it takes (and obviously the whole point of running a cycle is gains). So yes, get a proper serm for pct.

- I used epiandro alongside 1 and 4 andro last year and love the compound, great taken pwo. However, you already have 3 compounds going on and assuming it’s a first or second cycle I wouldn’t add something else at this stage. See how you react to your proposed stack first.
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Thanks for the info.

I'm 37yrs - 6'1 - 203lbs - 18% BF. Been training off and on since 2012 (any extended "off" period was due to work schedule... I typically try to hit the gym at least 3 times a week minimum).

I ran a cycle of of just Test-E 375/week almost exactly a year ago and although I had a great experience with that, I hate pinning. I've always hated needles, so I thought I'd give these Chaos and Pain products a try since I've read some great feedback from various people on these forums as well as searching around the net.

The doses would be as instructed on the bottle. 1 tab in the morning and 1 at night (from what I gather, 12 hours apart is ideal). Each are dosed like:

- Chem-1/1-andro: 110mg/tablet = 220mg per day
- Chem-4/4-andro: 75mg/tablet = 150mg per day
- Chem-X/19-nor: 55mg/tablet = 110mg per day

To clarify, I will be doing a cycle of the 1andro + 4andro and then after 4 weeks off, I will be doing a cycle of 4andro + 19nor.

- Cycle support: I will use K1ngsguard to start but likely will buy CEL cycle assist due to the low price. Haven't researched Ar1macare but I will.

- AI: I still have an unopened Arimidex that I had got at the same time as my Test-E cycle. Never needed it during that cycle though. What about El1minate? would this be a good option as well?

- PCT: I had Nolva and Clomid for my Test-E cycle last year... only have a bit of Clomid left so I'll have to get some more. Clomid enough? or will I need both Clomid + Nolva? What dosage would be recommended for this type of cycle?

- Epiandro: Thanks for the feedback there as well. I will start with what I have and make the decision on epi in the future.
 
marcone said:
Thanks for the info.

I'm 37yrs - 6'1 - 203lbs - 18% BF. Been training off and on since 2012 (any extended "off" period was due to work schedule... I typically try to hit the gym at least 3 times a week minimum).

I ran a cycle of of just Test-E 375/week almost exactly a year ago and although I had a great experience with that, I hate pinning. I've always hated needles, so I thought I'd give these Chaos and Pain products a try since I've read some great feedback from various people on these forums as well as searching around the net.

The doses would be as instructed on the bottle. 1 tab in the morning and 1 at night (from what I gather, 12 hours apart is ideal). Each are dosed like:

- Chem-1/1-andro: 110mg/tablet = 220mg per day
- Chem-4/4-andro: 75mg/tablet = 150mg per day
- Chem-X/19-nor: 55mg/tablet = 110mg per day

To clarify, I will be doing a cycle of the 1andro + 4andro and then after 4 weeks off, I will be doing a cycle of 4andro + 19nor.

- Cycle support: I will use K1ngsguard to start but likely will buy CEL cycle assist due to the low price. Haven't researched Ar1macare but I will.

- AI: I still have an unopened Arimidex that I had got at the same time as my Test-E cycle. Never needed it during that cycle though. What about El1minate? would this be a good option as well?

- PCT: I had Nolva and Clomid for my Test-E cycle last year... only have a bit of Clomid left so I'll have to get some more. Clomid enough? or will I need both Clomid + Nolva?

- Epiandro: Thanks for the feedback there as well. I will start with what I have and make the decision on epi in the future.
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We are almost identical height/weight/bf/lifting exp bro.....

First thing I’d mention is that although I’ve never pinned I’m confident to say this won’t be anywhere near the same level as you’ve had with test - just want to check you haven’t got expectations it will.

Certainly 1 and 4 andro should be dosed at 330 + a day and for 8 weeks (they only really kick in weeks 3-4)......

Arimidex is fine to have on hand, I wouldn’t use anything else. Personally I didnt need the ai but better safe than sorry.

Clomid alone is perfect (I ran that also and recovered well). Wouldn’t run both nolva and clomid together even if you had them.....
 
I would suggest you raise the doses and run all three together for 8 weeks, then do a proper pct and time off. As far as I'm concerned you will get way more out of that. For one, after 4 weeks of alpha pct, I really believe that you will be nowhere near recovered fully, maybe a little bit. And then you're jumping on right again for another 8 weeks so regardless of if you were shut down before, you will absolutely be shut down. Increase the dosages, run all three together for 8 weeks or if you have enough run it longer to maybe ten weeks tops, and then 4 weeks of either clomid or nolva
 
I personally would do 50/50/25/25 on clomid but some will say you could get away with 50/25/25/25 or 25/25/25/25. I just personally don't get any sides from clomid at 50mg and I feel like I'll recover better
 
To be honest I've only ever heard bad/questionable stuff about it. I had thought about running it for its conversion to nandrolone but could not find any good reviews of it
 
DennisC1986 said:
I would suggest you raise the doses and run all three together for 8 weeks, then do a proper pct and time off. As far as I'm concerned you will get way more out of that. For one, after 4 weeks of alpha pct, I really believe that you will be nowhere near recovered fully, maybe a little bit. And then you're jumping on right again for another 8 weeks so regardless of if you were shut down before, you will absolutely be shut down. Increase the dosages, run all three together for 8 weeks or if you have enough run it longer to maybe ten weeks tops, and then 4 weeks of either clomid or nolva
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Run all 3 together? What would be the benefit of that? The only part I was undecided on so far was whether to start with 4,X or 1,4 cycle. I'd definitely want some more feedback before deciding on running all 3 at once.

Currently, I have enough to run 8 weeks of 1,4, and 8 weeks of 4,X. After reading up some more, I was going to take 8 weeks off in between the 2 cycles.

FWIW, if I ran all 3 at the same time, I'd be left with 2 bottles of chem 4 (I assume I don't have to double up on chem 4 if I did run all 3 together). So unless running all 3 has a big benefit to outweigh having 2 bottles leftover having spent the $ on them.. I'll likely stick with the plan of running 2 separate cycles.
 
So the X is the 19nor right? The reason behind running all 3 would be that it would be like running test, deca and 1 testosterone. Now obviously this is not like really running those steroids, they're just the precursors, but test/deca is a solid stack and 1 test would just add to it. It would be like running a 1/4/epi (which is probably the most popular andro stack) except instead of epi you're replacing it with the nor andro. Tons of logs on here with guys running 1/4 or 1/4/epi for 8 weeks. Just like I said there's next to no info on the 19nor
 
marcone said:
I just picked up Chaos and Pain Chem-1, Chem-4 and Chem-X along with Alpha PCT.

I am planning to cycle like this:

1st cycle: Chem-1 + Chem-4 for 8 weeks... 4 weeks off with Alpha PCT

2nd cycle: Chem-X + Chem-4 for 8 weeks... 4 weeks off with Alpha PCT

A few questions before I jump into it though:

- Do I need to take on cycle support while taking these? I still have 1 bottle of OL k1ngsguard. Not sure what else is needed, if anything.

- Do I need any anti estrogen? If so what’s recommended. Would arimidex be overkill?

- Do I need to get some pct like clomid or nolva? Or is the alpha pct enough?

- I’ve seen people talking about using Epi-Andro in quite a few threads, any need to add that here or just roll with what I have for now?


Any other tips/advice before I begin the cycles would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Think I answered this in other thread

I would run chem x and 4 for 8nweeks than alpha pct and clomid
Time on plus time off then run the 1 and 4 cycle
I would suggest a pct when touching anything hormonal
On cycle support is suggested for overall health
Anti estrogen on hand just in case but have not heard anyone needing one
Epi andro not needed since the 4 is all you need
 
BloodManor said:
Think I answered this in other thread

I would run chem x and 4 for 8nweeks than alpha pct and clomid
Time on plus time off then run the 1 and 4 cycle
I would suggest a pct when touching anything hormonal
On cycle support is suggested for overall health
Anti estrogen on hand just in case but have not heard anyone needing one
Epi andro not needed since the 4 is all you need
Click to expand...

See this is why I hired you. haha! Nailed.

Been busy with the podcast which we will be answering some questions on soon. Got some pmed my way so I may actually take this on to answer.
 
pyrobatt said:
See this is why I hired you. haha! Nailed.

Been busy with the podcast which we will be answering some questions on soon. Got some pmed my way so I may actually take this on to answer.
Click to expand...

What’s your thoughts on the idea mentioned earlier in this thread of stacking chem 1 + 4 + X at the same time for 8 weeks? Pros/cons?

And where can I subscribe to the podcast??
 
marcone said:
What’s your thoughts on the idea mentioned earlier in this thread of stacking chem 1 + 4 + X at the same time for 8 weeks? Pros/cons?

And where can I subscribe to the podcast??
Click to expand...

My personal thoughts is that you would get more out of 2 separate cycles. More is not always better due to diminishing returns.
pyrobatt
 
marcone said:
What’s your thoughts on the idea mentioned earlier in this thread of stacking chem 1 + 4 + X at the same time for 8 weeks? Pros/cons?

And where can I subscribe to the podcast??
Click to expand...

We have it up on youtube, I'll get you a link.

Pro's for stacking all 3 is more gains. The cons aren't very much except for maybe cost. We have low sides as far as anabolics go so I would say, if you're up for it...go for it.

I do suggest a run of either just chemical 4 or chem 4+ either x or one if you're new to prohormones.

Stack all 3 when you have a run or 2 under your belt.
 
pyrobatt said:
We have it up on youtube, I'll get you a link.

Pro's for stacking all 3 is more gains. The cons aren't very much except for maybe cost. We have low sides as far as anabolics go so I would say, if you're up for it...go for it.

I do suggest a run of either just chemical 4 or chem 4+ either x or one if you're new to prohormones.

Stack all 3 when you have a run or 2 under your belt.
Click to expand...

Guess I’m gonna be running all 3 at once one day :)
 
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