KSman
Member
Fish oils can improve the function and permeability of the cell walls. This can improve the functioning and expression of hormone receptors. So yes, this could be a factor.
results 4 weeks subq shots
- Thread starter hardasnails1973
- Start date
Fish oils can improve the function and permeability of the cell walls. This can improve the functioning and expression of hormone receptors. So yes, this could be a factor.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
So by increasing bioavailable testosterone one could possible alter there estrodial levels even though testosterone total has not changed. Some of the crap I think off right LOL :type:
pmgamer18
Well-known member
You are the man:bb:
hardasnails1973
Registered User
'
Does that theory actually makes sense?
Going from say 500 bio available T to 800-900 is that a big enough jump to trigger e2 increase?
KSman
Member
If the aromatization rate of T-->E is limited by the concentration of T, that would seem logical. We know that E&T compete for the aromatase and that it takes more anastrozole to deal with higher levels of T.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
After taking shot in the moring brain fog has become ridiculous and constipation is gettgin worse by the day. I feel like a total space cadet..starting to get emotional numb to like a zombie no feelings. This happened one time before, but atleast no hot flashes this time, but i just want to sleep all day long..No DIM or reservatrol at the moment. erections are dead too, have hard time pissing and rtyping this is getting laborious too. mental clarity is shot. Been 2 weeks since stopping armidex. I do not know if the the e2 coming in check is feeding the already elevated progesterone or is that just the e2 is out of balance. I will find out tommorrow. i am sick of this fukn sh*t
Progesterone can wake up the estrogen in your body & can give you estrogen dominance symptoms.
From this i gather they are saying if you have elevated progesterone and estrogen is rising it could make things even worse even though estrogen is in check.. Progesterone feeds estrogen is what bottom line is
As long as there is estrogen in the system progesterone can agonize its effects. And since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia. having high esterone is just feedin this I am sure as well plus the e2 rising where ever it may be at.
SoMdHunter
Member
I got my tests back last week and noticed there were 2 profiles listed. One was the typical 241-827 range, and the other went up to 1100. The strange thing is my testosterone readings were much different betweent the 2. I just thought it was a different method used to run the test. I may not be all that high on the scale afterall.
I'm curious what Dr John's take will be when he reads my lab results.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Yeah the idoits increased the total test and dropped the free test from 210 down to 155 what fukn morons. Now its even going to make it harder for drs to understand what is going on and now more guys are going to slip through the cracks . I stick by old scales 210 of free T as shippen does and more so go by bioavailable from calcuation. My dr uses antiaging scale and aslong as I am consitant with test readings after 2-3 months you will know where you are at then just tested once every 4 months. If I am high it must be long jack LOL. I suggested once we get shbg down then we could actually lower the testosterone a bit i know 50 mgs every 3 days , hcg day before 250 ius puts me at 1111 on the DOT.
bobbyn
Member
spot injecting?
I use half of CC because I only use 50 mgs at a time which is 25 ius on insulin pin stick it right on in calve, thigh, triceps, biceps, deltoid,
Plus i like spot injecting more often brings up lagging body parts LOL[/QUOTE]
hardasnails....could you please explain? what is it you are spot injecting?
thanks
bob
I use half of CC because I only use 50 mgs at a time which is 25 ius on insulin pin stick it right on in calve, thigh, triceps, biceps, deltoid,
Plus i like spot injecting more often brings up lagging body parts LOL[/QUOTE]
hardasnails....could you please explain? what is it you are spot injecting?
thanks
bob
KSman
Member
hardasnails....could you please explain? what is it you are spot injecting?
thanks
bob[/QUOTE]
Spot injecting testosterone esters can't do much at all. Otherwise most glut injecting gear-heads would have big asses. The test esters diffuse into circulation where a few different processes remove the ester group from the test ester. Test esters are not anabolically active until that happens. Now if a oil base product had some test suspension in it, the results might be different.
(hardasnails1973
Registered User
you evver took delete option out ugh ~
hardasnails1973
Registered User
just got testing results for e2 after stopping armidex for 3 weeks results are
e2 73 (13-54) so as you can see it was e2 the whole time and ultra sensitrive essay is ****en worthless !!
Current regime was 50 mgs of test every 3 days with hcg day before the shot 250 ius total test came out to be 1111 on day of next injection every thing elese is good bio test was at 54% (explaining hidden estrogen problems
this test was taken on day after injection to see where my peak e2 was
Should I stop hcg or just add back in armidex at .25 every 3rd day and retest in 2-3 weeks? What should next step be ?
progesterioine dropped .7 vs 1.5. With concurrent symptoms i fell apart about a week after taking the last armidex dosage. So my hypothsis was right e2 was main player all along !!
e2 73 (13-54) so as you can see it was e2 the whole time and ultra sensitrive essay is ****en worthless !!
Current regime was 50 mgs of test every 3 days with hcg day before the shot 250 ius total test came out to be 1111 on day of next injection every thing elese is good bio test was at 54% (explaining hidden estrogen problems
this test was taken on day after injection to see where my peak e2 was
Should I stop hcg or just add back in armidex at .25 every 3rd day and retest in 2-3 weeks? What should next step be ?
progesterioine dropped .7 vs 1.5. With concurrent symptoms i fell apart about a week after taking the last armidex dosage. So my hypothsis was right e2 was main player all along !!
KSman
Member
Well, this all makes sense now. Everything else seems to fall in place.
I really have doubts that .58mg/wk if arimidex will take you where you need to be. I don't think that 1.0mg/wk would be enough. I would do the 1.0mg/wk and retest from there to decide to go up or down. Suggest that you only test E2, when that is on target or expected to be with the next test, then see where the progesterone is from there. That assumes that progesterone and E2 are linked. I don't know what delay there might be for progesterone to reach steady state in response to a change in E2.
For me, libido told me that 1mg/wk was good for me in 7-10 days. Energy and mood took 3 months to fully respond. As your 'deviation' is short term, perhaps your recovery will be quicker than that as mental patterns have not fully settled in.
Stay on the HCG and take that as a foundation that does not change, and adjust other things as needed.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
but if stopping hcg drops my level by 50 -60% then would that not be a good thing? and there be less drugs i have to take provided my testlevels do not drop and this would raise up bioavailavble levels as well..
i do see your point but if just dropping hcg would reduce my estrodial /esterone levels then that would be the easiest to do first correct? for me less drugs are better and cheaper LOL. If they did the right test in the first place i would have known where I was to begin with ..I notice as i increased test e2 came up as well, but according to this ultrasentive essay test .5 mgs driove e2 into teh ground. This reading was at peak level could e2 fluctuate that much? are did i just have a bad rebound cold turkey stoping armidex ?
KSman
Member
What works well cannot be ignored. Cost wise, 60mg of liquid adex for $50, is fast and effective. No sides and can be taken with or without food. HCG for me is dirt cheap at $16.25 for 10,000iu at Sam's Club with a Business Membership. The HCG also adds to your T levels which may reduce the need for T meds. For some, keeping the testes from shrinking is important to imperative. Many also report that HCG improves mood.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
So positives outway negatives i knew it was e2 because of i got worse after day of and day after hcg shot and you really picked up on my cloudy mentality as well thanks but i would really like to know what the results of the ultrasentiive test really showed. Was the armidex working too good and just needed to reduce dosages or did I really need more then i was taking?
KSman
Member
I don't know what the other test value might mean. But if we ignore it, then everthing else makes sense. I have this feeling to want to consider it "bad data".
hardasnails1973
Registered User
See here what the thing
feb test 10 grams of tcreame 3 hours after application
tt 305
e2 22
shbg 39
lp(a) 112
cholesterol 150
This made no sense
may
60 mgs of Test injections m,th with 250 ius hcg day before shot with .5 armidex day of the shot oif hcg
tt 1111
shbg 37
bioavailable T 54%
e ultrasensitive < 2 <29 range from my impression this is low dangerously low
cholesterol 125
lp(a) 127 WTF estrogens make this increase as well as low e2
glucose was 80
hba1c 5.6 (this is high)
progesterone 1.5 high this lowers e2
all other variable the same
Stopped arimidex/dim/calcium D for 4 week retested went every 3rd day 50 mgs T which should have helped e2
moday we tested
progsterone .7 <1.4 e2 could lowers this
e2 73 H (13-54) BINGO !! might be from armidex/dim rebound
total cholesterol 126 again
triglycerides dropped from 50 to 39 (fatty liver posible from estrogen)
hdl 46 dropped from 50
waiting on lp(a) if this dropped then it was low e2 from may test.
Then right now we just have to find a happy medium
for e2. Mr happy is not smiling right now thats for sure.
i was going to do .25 armidex every 3rd day day of hcg injections then retest in 3 weeks and keep all other variables the same since it may be .5 twice a week was too much or it only seem to appear it was..
plymouth city
Banned
liquidex from the research chem guys. Its practically cost free at 50-60 bucks for a year supply.
I say Ksman is right, 1mg per week is enough.
Im picking up some pregnenolone and DHEA cream for a little trial.
Getting TT, FT, E2, IGF-1 and SHBG tested in August it looks.
If that E2 number shows up high again(it was 43) Im finally giving in and going with liquidex.
Been working extremely hard on BF levels. I now have veins protruding out from my lower ab-waist area, this is really cool to see, Ive never been this low in BF, not even during my HS wrestling days. BF is really getting good, Im prolly at 6 now, and feel really good at this level.
One again, we are all practically living medical research. Hardasnails with a 1111 TT, Ksman's prior TT in the 800's and mine mid 730's yet we all had common issues of all sorts, all because we all had elevated E2(all similar side effects as well, despite our awesome TT numbers)
I say Ksman is right, 1mg per week is enough.
Im picking up some pregnenolone and DHEA cream for a little trial.
Getting TT, FT, E2, IGF-1 and SHBG tested in August it looks.
If that E2 number shows up high again(it was 43) Im finally giving in and going with liquidex.
Been working extremely hard on BF levels. I now have veins protruding out from my lower ab-waist area, this is really cool to see, Ive never been this low in BF, not even during my HS wrestling days. BF is really getting good, Im prolly at 6 now, and feel really good at this level.
One again, we are all practically living medical research. Hardasnails with a 1111 TT, Ksman's prior TT in the 800's and mine mid 730's yet we all had common issues of all sorts, all because we all had elevated E2(all similar side effects as well, despite our awesome TT numbers)
hardasnails1973
Registered User
do like .25 EOD then retest in 3 weeks and should be fine love to know wtf that ultrasentive essay was saying. I figure conservative approach is best or prgmmer suggested to front load the reduce accordingly
.5 mgs a day for a week then .25 EOD or E3D
wildfox
Member
KSman, are you getting Novarel or crAPP? I've determined that APP is just no good for me. Gonna start Novarel, which has always been better.
KSman
Member
I am using APP and it reversed shrinkage, pain and tight scrotum. Lifted my TT from 886 to 1025. The first time I injected it, I felt a mild sort of brain rush. So some kind of CNS action.
What was it about APP that did not work for you?
What would you want me to look for trying Novarel?
APP HCG at Sam's Club costs me $16.25/10000iu. Way cheap. I should ask at Sam's what Novarel would cost me. I need to get more soon in any case.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
If one is measuring at trough at TT 1111 (day of next injection) then would it be advisible to lower the dosage of testosterone and this could lower the e2 conversion even more ? since e2 was 73 with out armidex for 4 weeks due to i guess dr miss readong the test which no one can seem to understand the results on the ultrasenstive estrodial male essay.
KSman
Member
I think that when a convention is used for when to test, then you and everyone else who does BW with the same timing is going to have closer peaks and troughs as a group.
In your case, ?E3D?, then maybe you could lower T a bit. But your peaks and troughs will be closer together than for someone with weekly injections. For E2D injections the changes might be quite small.
wildfox
Member
With APP, my testes stayed small. With novarel, they feel a pleasant soreness as they "inflate" about 12 hours after injection, and they get bigger. Maybe they have different ratios of alpha and beta subunits.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
KSman
Member
I would assume that smaller T changes would mean smaller E changes as well. As far as timing of tests and E changes goes, probably little is known. When E is increasing, more E is getting accumulated in serum. The rate of conversion will be T level driven. One should expect a phase delay for any E peaks. So E peaks, will be later than T peaks. But are the E peaks significant at all? I don't know. But with frequent injections, T variations will be small and E variations should also be small. I don't know if I addressed your question or not.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Yes and different ester cause different peak T levels at different durations and also e 2 levels
if prop is 24 hours it peaks then e2 would also be peaking as well as the sharp rise in the T goes up so does the E. Why TRT needs a stable ester not one that goes all over the place.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Since starting the armidex at .5 mgs a feel so much better then 2 days ago joint pains are goneand metnal clarity is coming back slowly. I seem to think that over previous mouths of taking the gel + hcg +AI before swithcing to the shots I was driving my estrogen possible too low in comparisoin to the shbg (which has been altered due to EPA/AA imbalnace) and elevated esterone (which increase shbg). Right now I am going to balance out the e2 with armidex but also work on restabilizing shbg by proper EFA balances and then I think will pan out. Low estrogen will put a huge stress on adrenals because it pushes the thyroid harder weaking adrenals (this can be seen in the drop of cortisol levels) low estrodial will also cause lower homocysteine levels as well as elevated lp(a) and also cause a decrease in choline affecting liver function (AKA fatty liver), also lower gluthione. All of these have been indicated on lab tests but by lower the estrogen did bring up zinc, coenyzme q10, and vtiamin E. so rigth now I need to find a happy balnce between e1 and e2. The estrogen urine test as well as its methylated metabolites will be the missing key to the puzzle as well as the esssential fat EPA/AA. currentyl I am eating red meat 3 times a week vs ever day and increasing my cocconut oil to 2 TBSP a day to increase my cholesterol.
I beleive right now for shbg being higher that it would require high then normal e2 in order to prevent a deficincy untill I get the proper ratio of EFA to lower the shbg then i will be back in balance once a gain
I beleive right now for shbg being higher that it would require high then normal e2 in order to prevent a deficincy untill I get the proper ratio of EFA to lower the shbg then i will be back in balance once a gain
wildfox
Member
How frequently are you taking that 0.5mg Arimidex?
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Few days then cutting back to .5 day on days of every3day injections and laying off DIM. I need to get e2 stabilized first then i can focus on that.
JanSz
Well-known member
How much leftower HCG is left in the vial when you switch to next vial. How many days you use HCG vial?
I am on third Novarel vial. I use each vial to the end. I use 250IU EOD, so single vial lasts
=10000/250*2=80 days.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
Novarel is only good for 30 days I can feel it not working at 26 days. APP dose not work for me but they say it is good for 60 days. APP use to make Novarel and it was good for 60 days.
KSman
Member
My vials also last 80 days. I have had my suspicions about expiry. My Doctor says not to worry. My testes seem to be doing fine and I have just finished a vial.
KSman
Member
Does Novarel cost the same as APP for you?
Novarel is still 'human derived' according to Wikipedia and is considered one of the 'generics'.
I read that human derived HCG is partly metabolized/damaged/oxidized etc and that rHCG is not. I don't know what rHCG options there are or the costs.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
It is payed for by my health plain but still APP is less money.
I get this feeling of well being on HCG and APP does not do this to me and my levels go down big time on it.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Folwloing test coming in
dht was 329 H 25-75 range What can be causing this ?
This was with out creames but rather injections. Coudl hcg be diverting to dht for some reason ?
dht was 329 H 25-75 range What can be causing this ?
This was with out creames but rather injections. Coudl hcg be diverting to dht for some reason ?
wildfox
Member
cpeil2
Member
The only one is Ovidrel. It comes in pre-filled syringes of 250 or 500 mcg. 500 mcg = 10K IU human-derived hCG. 500 mcg costs about $50.
I don't remember where, I think on Mesomorphosis, I have seen instructions posted for transferring the hormone from the syringe to a multi-use vial and diluting it properly so that you can take small doses out as needed.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
so estrogens and T could be driving this
thought progesterone was an 5 alpha reductase its self ?
wildfox
Member
Progesterone is a hormone (can be converted to something else). Alpha reductase is an enzyme (coverts convertible things to other things).
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Might be why my progesterone levels dipped in half because e2 went up/ Body is like one hormonal see saw.