SoMdHunter
Member
Thanks for the info SE! I'll be sure to ask Dr John about it when I see him. At least now he will have the numbers at both dosages, and should be able to gauge what to do for me.
My Road To Being Me Again
- Thread starter SoMdHunter
- Start date
Thanks for the info SE! I'll be sure to ask Dr John about it when I see him. At least now he will have the numbers at both dosages, and should be able to gauge what to do for me.
kincaiddave
Member
What I did was to titrate first at once/week to get my testosterone toward the upper end of the lab's range, which worked out to 100 mg test cyp. Then with Phil's help (Thanks again Phil!) I went to 3/7 (injecting every three days instead of every 7) of that - 43mg. Later we bumped it up to a nice round 50mg every three days and stayed with that.
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but you did make a big increase in dosage going to every three days or twice/week if you kept the same dosage per injection. Naturally that is going to shoot your E2 up in response as well.
You'll get it right with Dr. John's help.
thomastobird
New member
I didn't read the whole thread, but is there any possibility it's a igf-1, or HGH problem?
JanSz
Well-known member
ppppppppppp
pmgamer18
Well-known member
Your welcome good to see you still doing great.
HondoElroy
New member
SMD,
Have been lurking around, following your situation. Found it interesting as I had problems very similar to yours (libido loss, ED, fatigue, etc.), only my causation was different - and initial T levels much lower than yours. Started out on Androgel and then went over to Testim. Gradually worked up to two 10 gram packets a day - and barely got up to around 450 Total T! Doc finally figured out I was a poor absorber and switched me over to injections... Test Cyp, 100mg once a week IM. Quite a bit of improvement but early phase of curve caused spike in already borderline high E2 and Total Estrogens (we tend to concentrate too much on JUST the E2). I then arranged a switch over to 50 mg of Test Cyp twice a week (Monday morning and Thursday night). Also part of the protocol was 250 IU of HcG done with SubQ injection 24 hr before the Test Cyp shot (so 500 IU of HcG daily). Due to continued higher levels of E2 and Total Es (E2 was at very high normal range and Total Es well above top end of normal range), so we also had added in 1/2 of a 1 mg Arimidex tablet also twice a week (I take concurrent with doing the Test Cyp IM shot just as a purposeful reminder).
My last set of test results showed Total T at 680 (220 - 1000), Free T at 210 (40 - 240), Free T Percentage at 3.7% (0.5 - 3.2%... this one hard to read due to smudging), E2 at 22 (0 - 60), Total Es at 124 (less than 200), PSA 0.55. I wouldn't mind having Total T levels up there a bit higher for "optimal level ranges", but things are working out well at this protocol. I have about 80 - 90% of my libido back. ED is no problem anymore (unless some other concern involved like very fatigued, etc.)., I have energy for long bike rides, cardio workouts and weight training, etc., etc.
I also take DHEA as my DHEA levels were very low (25 mg in morning and 25 mg in early afternoon) and a 1 mg Melatonin before bedtime (both being hormones that we lose as we age and my DHEA levels specifically had tested out quite low). I take TMG a couple times a week to help keep the liver cleaned out and the P450 Enzyme system working good. I tried the DIM (all the varieties and all the protocols - including the "favored band") and also found that it did nothing for me. In fact when I went on the favored brand, my E2 levels did come down a couple points, but my Total Es jumped over 50 points... and I developed more libido, anxiety, and while fortunately didn't return to a state of ED, I noticed a significant lessening of of sensation during sex. No more DIM for me after that (IMO its more of a scam than anything else anyway, but then that is IMHO).
Question. Does Dr. John know that you are doing the shots of Test Cyp on a SubQ basis? It's been a while since I've been on any of the forums, but I recall reading on one or two where he was dead set against doing Test shots SubQ. As I recalled he pointed out that SubQ shots injects the Test Cyp directly into the dermal layer under the skin (i.e., into fat) and that "aromatase lives in fat cells"... in other words that he felt doing Test on a SubQ injection basis would significantly RAISE the levels of E2 and Total Es due to aromatization. Has he changed his opinion on that?
Also, it sounds to me like you do your Test Cyp SubQ shots pretty much all over (legs, calves, delts, etc.). Is there a reason for doing it that way rather than in the stomach like with the Hcg injections? Is there any specific benefit to that or just a matter of choice thing.
I wouldn't mind it taking longer to inject the Test Cyp thru a thinner needle, but drawing it up would be a real bear. I read recently on another forum where the guy used a larger size syringe / needle combo (3ml w/22 gauge needle) to draw the Test Cyp and then he pulled the plunger out of the insulin syringe and injected the Test Cyp into the tube. He then partially reinserted the plunger and then turned the insulin syringe upside down and slowly pushed the plunger in until he evacuated out all the air and got just a tiny drop of Test Cyp at the end of the needle. the whole process took about 20 seconds rather than the usual 3 - 5 minutes of drawing the thicker Test Cyp into the insulin syringe thru that skinny little needle! The injection still took longer than with using a 25 gauge 1" (like I do with my quads - BTW, I find that icing the area before injecting for about 1 minute makes them all painless with that size doing them IM). But at least he cut down quite a bit on the overall process!
Heck, I'd be satisfied to even just be able to use 1" 27-gauge needles for the IM injections. The syringe comes with a 22-gauge needle which I use to draw the Test Cyp and then I switch over to 25 gauge needles for injection. With the icing, basically always painless but also always an occasional exception. Problem is that my insurance provider (MedCo) apparently doesn't carry the 27 gauge in the 1" size.
Elroy
Have been lurking around, following your situation. Found it interesting as I had problems very similar to yours (libido loss, ED, fatigue, etc.), only my causation was different - and initial T levels much lower than yours. Started out on Androgel and then went over to Testim. Gradually worked up to two 10 gram packets a day - and barely got up to around 450 Total T! Doc finally figured out I was a poor absorber and switched me over to injections... Test Cyp, 100mg once a week IM. Quite a bit of improvement but early phase of curve caused spike in already borderline high E2 and Total Estrogens (we tend to concentrate too much on JUST the E2). I then arranged a switch over to 50 mg of Test Cyp twice a week (Monday morning and Thursday night). Also part of the protocol was 250 IU of HcG done with SubQ injection 24 hr before the Test Cyp shot (so 500 IU of HcG daily). Due to continued higher levels of E2 and Total Es (E2 was at very high normal range and Total Es well above top end of normal range), so we also had added in 1/2 of a 1 mg Arimidex tablet also twice a week (I take concurrent with doing the Test Cyp IM shot just as a purposeful reminder).
My last set of test results showed Total T at 680 (220 - 1000), Free T at 210 (40 - 240), Free T Percentage at 3.7% (0.5 - 3.2%... this one hard to read due to smudging), E2 at 22 (0 - 60), Total Es at 124 (less than 200), PSA 0.55. I wouldn't mind having Total T levels up there a bit higher for "optimal level ranges", but things are working out well at this protocol. I have about 80 - 90% of my libido back. ED is no problem anymore (unless some other concern involved like very fatigued, etc.)., I have energy for long bike rides, cardio workouts and weight training, etc., etc.
I also take DHEA as my DHEA levels were very low (25 mg in morning and 25 mg in early afternoon) and a 1 mg Melatonin before bedtime (both being hormones that we lose as we age and my DHEA levels specifically had tested out quite low). I take TMG a couple times a week to help keep the liver cleaned out and the P450 Enzyme system working good. I tried the DIM (all the varieties and all the protocols - including the "favored band") and also found that it did nothing for me. In fact when I went on the favored brand, my E2 levels did come down a couple points, but my Total Es jumped over 50 points... and I developed more libido, anxiety, and while fortunately didn't return to a state of ED, I noticed a significant lessening of of sensation during sex. No more DIM for me after that (IMO its more of a scam than anything else anyway, but then that is IMHO).
Question. Does Dr. John know that you are doing the shots of Test Cyp on a SubQ basis? It's been a while since I've been on any of the forums, but I recall reading on one or two where he was dead set against doing Test shots SubQ. As I recalled he pointed out that SubQ shots injects the Test Cyp directly into the dermal layer under the skin (i.e., into fat) and that "aromatase lives in fat cells"... in other words that he felt doing Test on a SubQ injection basis would significantly RAISE the levels of E2 and Total Es due to aromatization. Has he changed his opinion on that?
Also, it sounds to me like you do your Test Cyp SubQ shots pretty much all over (legs, calves, delts, etc.). Is there a reason for doing it that way rather than in the stomach like with the Hcg injections? Is there any specific benefit to that or just a matter of choice thing.
I wouldn't mind it taking longer to inject the Test Cyp thru a thinner needle, but drawing it up would be a real bear. I read recently on another forum where the guy used a larger size syringe / needle combo (3ml w/22 gauge needle) to draw the Test Cyp and then he pulled the plunger out of the insulin syringe and injected the Test Cyp into the tube. He then partially reinserted the plunger and then turned the insulin syringe upside down and slowly pushed the plunger in until he evacuated out all the air and got just a tiny drop of Test Cyp at the end of the needle. the whole process took about 20 seconds rather than the usual 3 - 5 minutes of drawing the thicker Test Cyp into the insulin syringe thru that skinny little needle! The injection still took longer than with using a 25 gauge 1" (like I do with my quads - BTW, I find that icing the area before injecting for about 1 minute makes them all painless with that size doing them IM). But at least he cut down quite a bit on the overall process!
Heck, I'd be satisfied to even just be able to use 1" 27-gauge needles for the IM injections. The syringe comes with a 22-gauge needle which I use to draw the Test Cyp and then I switch over to 25 gauge needles for injection. With the icing, basically always painless but also always an occasional exception. Problem is that my insurance provider (MedCo) apparently doesn't carry the 27 gauge in the 1" size.
Elroy
SoMdHunter
Member
It was 4 days after my last one. I was doing every Thurs once a week and went to Mon and Thurs. Had the blood work done early Thurs afternoon before my next injection.
SoMdHunter
Member
Hey elroy,
Your symptoms and numbers sound pretty close to mine for the most part. Do to erect nipples, I even added in .5mg of Arimidex on injection day. I know my T is way high right now, but that is due to me increasing the injections since my Uro told me he didn't have time or knowledge to treat me. But at least I have more info for Dr John, even though I'll probably catch hell for playing Dr on myself.
I'm actually doing my injections IM, quad muscle, glute muscle etc..... I'm not doing the SubQ. I change the muscles around just to keep the sites fresh and to reduce any scaring of the muscle.
Except for my left quad though, most all my injections are with a 25G 1" needle, although lately I have obtained some smaller ones for ease. Drawing hasn't been an issue, and I'm in no hurry.
Thanks for the post man. It really helps me to know others were in my situation and are getting better. It gives me hope.
SoMdHunter
Member
FYI.....I actually got what looks like 2 tests done, one with 241-827 range, and another one from 250-1100 range. I scored totally different on each range. Guess I should have listed the 250-1100 results, which came back at 1184.
WTF? Beats me.
JanSz
Well-known member
Name the laboratory that did the testing.
SoMdHunter
Member
Quest Diagnostics. The blood is sent to them and they have done all my lab work. So at least the lab facilities are the same.
JanSz
Well-known member
You said "The blood is sent to them "
That mean you had the blood drawn somewhere and your blood was send out for the testing.
Now you are assuming that it was send to one place, and that is Quest.
I had blood drawn in hospital and it was send to three different laboratories.
Then the hospital's people combined that into one paper work.
After I got suspicious and did lots of checking I was able to get original reports from individual laboratories.
This is only one reason why I always say to have blood drawn at the Quest's blood drawing place.
Going by ranges it looks like you had you blood tested for T twice, once by LabCorp and also by Quest.
SoMdHunter
Member
Had my appointment with Dr John yesterday (Thank you kindly sir!). Both tests were done by Quest. Dr John isn't sure what is going on either, so we have adjusted my dosage to 1 injection per week and will re-test after 4 weeks.
During the exam I was also surprised to find my blood pressure was elevated, compared to what is normal for me. IT was 138/90 something. I don't think I have ever had it higher than the low 120's over 80. On any typical day it is in the one teens over sixty's or seventy's. Not sure what is up with that, so I'll keep an eye on it here at the house.
KSman
Member
Your BP could easily be higher with the excitement of your visit.
wondering
Member
You mention Insurance provider carryinga certain gauge needle.
Not sure where you're from, but in NY you can get 10 syringes at a time without a prescription and they are only about $4 for 10. So maybe skip insurance and just buy what you need.
Not sure where you're from, but in NY you can get 10 syringes at a time without a prescription and they are only about $4 for 10. So maybe skip insurance and just buy what you need.
KSman
Member
JanSz
Well-known member
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 1/2cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box
Invalid Link Removed
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 29 Gauge 1cc 1/2 inch Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $9.99
Invalid Link Removed
BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1cc 1/2inch Needle 100/box Price: $24.99
Invalid Link Removed
Syringe - 1cc 27gauge X 1/2", 200 Units / 1 unit Becton-Dickinson Our Price: $29.22
Invalid Link Removed
BD Pen Needle Original 29 Gauge 1/2inch 100/box Price: $25.99
Invalid Link Removed
BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2inch Needle 100/ box Price: $24.99
Invalid Link Removed
BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 29 Gauge 1cc 1/2 inch Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $9.99
Invalid Link Removed
BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1cc 1/2inch Needle 100/box Price: $24.99
Invalid Link Removed
Syringe - 1cc 27gauge X 1/2", 200 Units / 1 unit Becton-Dickinson Our Price: $29.22
Invalid Link Removed
BD Pen Needle Original 29 Gauge 1/2inch 100/box Price: $25.99
Invalid Link Removed
BD Microfine IV U-100 Insulin Syringe 28 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2inch Needle 100/ box Price: $24.99
Invalid Link Removed
BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
Invalid Link Removed
SoMdHunter
Member
That is what the wife said. Actually I was kinda tired, my day started out at 3:30am to catch my flight, so I would have thought it would have been low. But no worries, I'll keep it under check.
SoMdHunter
Member
11 June Update
Did my first injection to my new dosage as per Dr Crisler today. My T levels are way too high, so he adjusted it to once a week. Injection was just fine....I've gotten used to them now, so they don't bother me in the least.
Injections will now be on Mondays only and I get more blood work done in a month.
I must admit, it sure was nice talking with Dr. Crisler about my medical coverage. He is familiar with the military treatment facilities and Tricare coverage system. I'm really excited about how this goes. I'm so tired of putting up with this, and I am positive he can get me fixed up.
Did my first injection to my new dosage as per Dr Crisler today. My T levels are way too high, so he adjusted it to once a week. Injection was just fine....I've gotten used to them now, so they don't bother me in the least.
Injections will now be on Mondays only and I get more blood work done in a month.
I must admit, it sure was nice talking with Dr. Crisler about my medical coverage. He is familiar with the military treatment facilities and Tricare coverage system. I'm really excited about how this goes. I'm so tired of putting up with this, and I am positive he can get me fixed up.
HondoElroy
New member
No, where I am at, prescription is required... and I am locked in to a specific Health Care Plan with a specific provider. They make adjustments if doctor prescribes differently.
For example, as they have HcG being done - according to the phjamplet protocol, as an IM injection, thewould normally send HcG with syringe needle combination of a 3ml syringe with 1" 25-gauge needle... not really good for doing SubQ. But since doctor is prescribing it has SubQ, they send it along with Ultra-Fine (30 gauge) insulin syringes / needles. The main problem with them is that they simply don't carry the 27-gaue... either in the 1" 3ml syringe size for IM injections or the 1/2" 1cc size for SubQ injections.
SoMdHunter
Member
5 days after my injection and I can honestly say I don't feel that expected drop in my T levels yet.
Sexual problems still exist, but it is still early yet with the new protocol.
Sexual problems still exist, but it is still early yet with the new protocol.
KSman
Member
Whatever happens early, it is probably safe to assume that things will change. Most often as E levels increase, SHBG increases and the cellular and mental changes driven by E receptors takes place.
SoMdHunter
Member
Injection time again today, and everything was just fine. Time to call Kim now and see if I can get my question asked from Dr. John.
KSman
Member
I think that the point is that things will change and perhaps your questions will soon be about yesterday. Takes time and the game will be changing.
SoMdHunter
Member
You lost me on that one bro. I've had my treatment changed and need to call Kim to get a question answered. I've been in a class all this week, so hopefully I will get to a phone tomorrow to call her.
SoMdHunter
Member
Just a quick update to this log.
All is well, as far as treatment goes. I've comfortably settled into the Test C injections on Monday's. Got everything I need to start my HCG injections.
At first I'm thinking, 6 inches from the navel huh? Oh joy, won't this be fun. But it was all ado about nothing. Those are even easier than the T injections. Did my first one today, second one tomorrow and then my T injection on Monday.
I'll maintain that protocol for a month, then get blood work done again. I have to make a mental note to find out what tests Dr John wants me to ask for.
All is well, as far as treatment goes. I've comfortably settled into the Test C injections on Monday's. Got everything I need to start my HCG injections.
At first I'm thinking, 6 inches from the navel huh? Oh joy, won't this be fun. But it was all ado about nothing. Those are even easier than the T injections. Did my first one today, second one tomorrow and then my T injection on Monday.
I'll maintain that protocol for a month, then get blood work done again. I have to make a mental note to find out what tests Dr John wants me to ask for.
JanSz
Well-known member
I started T injections few day back.
I have used 29ga 1/2cc 1/2"long needle.
SubQ shots 3"-4" from navel. Lots of rubbing after the shot (just in case).
No pain what so ever.
It is so easy (suction and injection), I did some flow calculations,
shorter needle, easier flow, smaller hole harder to flow^4, in summary flow with 31ga should be only 22% more difficult, for-see no problem.
I am changing to smallest available needles:
Invalid Link Removed
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95
or may be this:
Invalid Link Removed
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99
----------------------------------------------------------
I decided on E3D routine
130.7mg/week original Depo-T, 28units on syringe
and HCG Novarel, 500iu each shot
I will do T+HCG on a same day, then two days free of shots
SoMdHunter
Member
Is this your own protocol or is this prescribed by your Dr?
JanSz
Well-known member
I get script from my doc for Depo-Testosterone.
I design my own routine,
as long as my blood tests do not show overuse he does not bother me about how I am dosing.
JanSz
Well-known member
Yesterday I did my third shot of 28units of Depo-T into belly fat.
Lots of rubbing after, no pain, nothing unpleasant.
I am using original Depo_Testosterone, what is that you are using?
I am still using 29ga 1/2cc 1/2" long needle
it took 2 minutes and 15 second to get it in.
My calculation show that using 31ga 3/10cc 5/16 needle should take 22% more time,
that is 2 minutes and 45 seconds.
For my next shot in Thursday I most likey will have the 31ga needles.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
I use the same thing Depo I have sensitive skin and need to watch what kind of soap I use this is why I can't do subQ.
SoMdHunter
Member
Guess I'm lucky. My sub-q injections are totally painless. I warm up the HCG before injecting though, just in case.
I've gotten very good at my T injections and haven't had any problems in awhile now. Still using 25g 1 inch with no problems!
coz
New member
You shouldn't warm up your HCG, it needs to be stored in the fridge to keep it from deteriorating - so warming it before you inject could have a negative impact on it. I just shoot it straight from the vial taken from the frigde, and put the vial straight back.
SoMdHunter
Member
The only warming up I do is what I have measured in the syringe. I don't warm up the whole vial and then put it back in the fridge.
On a good note, I've been on Dr John's protocol for almost 2 weeks now. I'm happy to notice nocturnal erections have returned for the last 2 nights!
With the weekend almost here, time to see if ED still persists.b4554
New member
The only warming up I do is what I have measured in the syringe. I don't warm up the whole vial and then put it back in the fridge.
On a good note, I've been on Dr John's protocol for almost 2 weeks now. I'm happy to notice nocturnal erections have returned for the last 2 nights!
YES!!!!! :head: :head: :head: Glad to hear it. I'm even more excited about my upcoming treatment now! Do you feel stronger, etc.?
SoMdHunter
Member
Actually strength is down a bit. I put this off to not eating enough. Work is piling up on me and I simply have little time to eat the way one needs to in order to gain strength/muscle. Erections seems to have left me now, not sure what is up with that. T injection went just fine this morning, so we will see what happens in a day or two.
SoMdHunter
Member
Just a quick update to my log.
I'm into my 3rd week of Dr John's protocol and it seems everything is starting to come together. Morning erections are starting to show up, although not everyday. Sex is improved, with erection quality noticeably better....duration is still a problem though. Still not totally successful with the wife, but I'm getting better.
I'm into my 3rd week of Dr John's protocol and it seems everything is starting to come together. Morning erections are starting to show up, although not everyday. Sex is improved, with erection quality noticeably better....duration is still a problem though. Still not totally successful with the wife, but I'm getting better.
SoMdHunter
Member
Will do bro.
Dr John's protocol continues. Nocturnal erections are intermittent right now, but this is much better than when they were non-existent! I can even respond to the wife without Cialis now! Still can't keep the erections long enough, but I'm getting there slowly but surely!
Dr John's protocol continues. Nocturnal erections are intermittent right now, but this is much better than when they were non-existent! I can even respond to the wife without Cialis now! Still can't keep the erections long enough, but I'm getting there slowly but surely!
pmgamer18
Well-known member
Hang in there it takes time to rebuild your penis even in Dr. Shippen's book he talks about how much the penis needs testosterone and what to do to get it back. Here is a cut and paste of a threat we had some time ago at the H2 group.
========================================
--- In [email protected], philip georgian
<pmgamer18@y...> wrote:But I can't help but think that the Testim and
Androgel is a lot stronger then what Dr. Shippen is talking about.
Can you take a look at this and let me know what you think.----
Hi Phil, you *would* ask me to do math! LOL Don't you realize
I'm 'mathematically challenged'!?
Well maybe it keeps the 'math cells' in my brain from atrophying!
Shippen's recommended compounded cream is half the strength of Testim
and Androgel. The dose he suggests for topical application to the
penis and scrotum 3 times weekly is a small dab.
Testim and Androgel are both 1% testosterone mixtures. (1% of any
given quantity of Testim or Androgel is pure testosterone.)
Shippen's recommended compounded cream contains 5mg testosterone per
single gram (1000 mg) of cream. This is a .5% testosterone mixture
(half the strength of Testim and Androgel).
Shippen recommends a quarter teaspoon or one gram (1000 mg) dose
for topical use on genitalia 3 times weekly.
One such dose of Testim or Androgel contains 10 mg testosterone.
An equal dose of Shippen's cream contains 5 mg testosterone.
Rachel
SoMdHunter
Member
Oh, I'm hanging in there man. I'm not about to give up after coming this far......no pun intended! The wife is much happier, but she would be estatic when I finish with her!
SoMdHunter
Member
Right back at ya bro. Sorry for not being here, yesterday was my B-day, so I was not online.
plymouth city
Banned
Happy B day! I had mine a few days ago as well. :lol:
plymouth city
Banned
Interesting, another advocate of genital application of TD test cream.
I have a question about it though. For the balls, all is fine and well. I dont like anyone, be it female or flyin solo, to be messin with the sack anways. But T cream on the penis does raise a red flag - Wouldn't there be an issue of puting T cream on an area when 10 - 12 hours later a girl will have her mouth there? :lol:
BTW good journal, reppin ya for it.
rfish1966
New member
This has been a good journal to read...I think a lot of us feel your pain. Just last night my wife sat me down and asked me if I still love her....I had to go thru a detailed explanation of how it is a problem with me and not her and she reminded me it had been a MONTH since the last time I touched her. Just under 2 weeks till I see my doc again, just have to hang in there I guess.
SufferingEd
Member
Glad to see your getting better. Slowly but surely. Hang in there.