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prohormones 1ad and 4ad

Patrick Arnold said:
i have had a few times in my career where my competition and i have simultaneously developed things. nor-4-ad was developed simultaneously by derek cornelius and myself for example. he accused me of stealing the idea from him. it was a stupid accusation cuz at the time there was adione, nordione, and 4-ad. any friggin numbskull could have forseen the next logical progression in that series.

when it comes to natural options, the choices are very limited. this leads naturally to overlaps
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hmmm.. well then maybe they are the same compound. Thanx for shaddering my dreams patrick. :frustrate Well yo know what, atleast your being honest that it could be the same compound. I guess only time will tell.
 
SO patrick, how tight is the lid on this cookie jar? I mean, you could always just crack it open a bit?:thumbsup:
 
I think that it could create a lot of positive energy if a little of info was spilled. Especially considering your releasing it in a couple of weeks. A little positive competition between you and AX could be a good thing for everyone. Just saying, if you ever feel bogged down by the weight of all secret information, I am all ears. haha.

Maybe all of this has fallen on deaf ears?
 
B5150 said:
poopypants.

It is obvious that you are an intelligent and knowledgeable kid. It is also obvious that you are arrogant, rude, and rather offensive. The majority of you contributions contain this sort of behavior. The way in which you express yourself is very unappreciated. Additionally, personal defamation of PA or ANY member here is very unacceptable. You may be a gold member, you may be a genius nerd, or a rocket scientist, but your opinions are presented in a very unbecoming and unflattering manner. I am going to ask you once, to please refrain from this sort of behavior and dialog on this board. You want to act that way somehwre else, and they have no issue with it, then so be it. But as long as you post here you will be polite, respectful and professional. I hope I make myself clear. This does not apply to just yourself, but the entire community. This behavior ends now.

Thanks
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aight didnt notice, lettin you know you were heard. thanks for the warning and in this case let me give pA a public apology and wish him well in his new venture.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
so you are saying that AX's promos constitute negative attention?

how so?

wouldn't you think that these promotions, though as un-ergopharm-like they may be, would only be good for customer interest?
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you misunderstood my statement pat but im done with this, good luck and i REALLY do hope its something diff, it would be nice to have mutliple benificial new compounds. GL.
 
poopypants said:
you misunderstood my statement pat but im done with this, good luck and i REALLY do hope its something diff, it would be nice to have mutliple benificial new compounds. GL.
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I would imagine it's in Pat's better interest that they're different compounds as well. Instead of competing directly AX's 3-AD sales, he'd be coming out with something which people could purchase for future cycles or stacks.
 
poopypants said:
B5150 said:
poopypants.

It is obvious that you are an intelligent and knowledgeable kid. It is also obvious that you are arrogant, rude, and rather offensive. The majority of you contributions contain this sort of behavior. The way in which you express yourself is very unappreciated. Additionally, personal defamation of PA or ANY member here is very unacceptable. You may be a gold member, you may be a genius nerd, or a rocket scientist, but your opinions are presented in a very unbecoming and unflattering manner. I am going to ask you once, to please refrain from this sort of behavior and dialog on this board. You want to act that way somehwre else, and they have no issue with it, then so be it. But as long as you post here you will be polite, respectful and professional. I hope I make myself clear. This does not apply to just yourself, but the entire community. This behavior ends now.

Thanks
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aight didnt notice, lettin you know you were heard. thanks for the warning and in this case let me give pA a public apology and wish him well in his new venture.
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Sorry. I imagine that the 'majority' would be an exaggeration as I don't read 'all' of your posts. You're a gentleman.
 
thanks B i was a lil bummed, i voice my opinion alot but i try to be helpful as much as possible, just check my last 10-15 posts before i made these comments, their prob half helpin, givin advice, or giving viable feedback on a supplement ive tried, the other half is me goofin... ill still make sure to keep my attitude in check and personal vendettas to myself.
 
thesinner said:
Do supplement companies work in conjuction with other business units to create the compounds in which they sell?
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every company does but mine. since mine is the only one with a true chemistry lab with the proper equipment and people that are experienced in synthesis and analysis.

trust me, others that claim the same are BSing you. If you checked you would find that they have a couple of beakers and a hot plate in a garage and thats about it
 
haroldjg said:
hmmm.. well then maybe they are the same compound. Thanx for shaddering my dreams patrick. :frustrate Well yo know what, atleast your being honest that it could be the same compound. I guess only time will tell.
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i am neither confirming nor denying that it is the same compound. I can't, since no one from AX has explicitly told me it is or is not

I was merely making a general point here
 
have you told them exactly what it is youve come up with as of yet? as i noticed most all at BB.com who are your reps had NO idea about this.
 
haroldjg said:
I think that it could create a lot of positive energy if a little of info was spilled. Especially considering your releasing it in a couple of weeks. A little positive competition between you and AX could be a good thing for everyone. Just saying, if you ever feel bogged down by the weight of all secret information, I am all ears. haha.

Maybe all of this has fallen on deaf ears?
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I don't really think of AX as being direct competition. we sell stuff through different channels kind of.
 
jsut wondering if anyone at all knows what it is that you are working on? im still interested in your innovations, i will not diregard your past contributions and hope youve brought us something great again.
 
poopypants said:
aight didnt notice, lettin you know you were heard. thanks for the warning and in this case let me give pA a public apology and wish him well in his new venture.
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all is fine poopy. in time you will figure out what i am all about
 
thesinner said:
I would imagine it's in Pat's better interest that they're different compounds as well. Instead of competing directly AX's 3-AD sales, he'd be coming out with something which people could purchase for future cycles or stacks.
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there are advantages either way
 
Patrick Arnold said:
there are advantages either way
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PA, I saw in a previous post that you stated that an OTC PCT product could be used for your new hormonal. With that being said, I have actually been wondering about your feelings on using toremefine rather than the typical nolva/clomid for PCT? I realize that this has been a newer fad around here (especially with a lot of the new designers) and that the anectdotal feedback seems pretty good. Albeit, most without bloodwork to go alongside.

Also, another question kinda perked my interest was what type of PCT product would be most benificial for a product such as havoc/epistane. These appear to have some anti-estrogen properties, which makes me wonder whether a substance such as clomid (thought of as more of an LH stimulator) would be more effective. It seems to me that the use of nolva is a bit overblown and the use of clomid has decreased...probably due to nolva's preferential affinity for breast tissue...and the average bodybuilder's overwhelming fear of gyno.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
every company does but mine. since mine is the only one with a true chemistry lab with the proper equipment and people that are experienced in synthesis and analysis.

trust me, others that claim the same are BSing you. If you checked you would find that they have a couple of beakers and a hot plate in a garage and thats about it
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Whoa I almost didn't see your post. Thanks for (stealthily) answering my question Pat!

I was wondering about this, and would not doubt that a lot of companies just go to china with a picture of the pharmacophore and that's it from their end. I'm glad to hear you guys are a little more innovative than that.
 
quigs said:
PA, I saw in a previous post that you stated that an OTC post cycle therapy product could be used for your new hormonal. With that being said, I have actually been wondering about your feelings on using toremefine rather than the typical nolva/clomid for PCT? I realize that this has been a newer fad around here (especially with a lot of the new designers) and that the anectdotal feedback seems pretty good. Albeit, most without bloodwork to go alongside.

Also, another question kinda perked my interest was what type of PCT product would be most benificial for a product such as havoc/epistane. These appear to have some anti-estrogen properties, which makes me wonder whether a substance such as clomid (thought of as more of an LH stimulator) would be more effective. It seems to me that the use of nolva is a bit overblown and the use of clomid has decreased...probably due to nolva's preferential affinity for breast tissue...and the average bodybuilder's overwhelming fear of gyno.
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what is supposed to be the advantage of toremefine over other more traditional serms like nolvadex? or is it just popular cuz its new?

clomid has no LH stimulating properties beyond that which is a result of its anti-estrogenic effects on the hypothalamus, so i don't see much difference between that and nolva. only reason why clomid is referred to as an LH stimulator so much is cuz that is what it was marketed as, while nolva was marketed for breast cancer

i am not sure that havoc/epi has estrogen receptor blocking action or anti-aromatase actions. It may just be good for estrogen related disorders because of androgenic actions
 
thesinner said:
Whoa I almost didn't see your post. Thanks for (stealthily) answering my question Pat!

I was wondering about this, and would not doubt that a lot of companies just go to china with a picture of the pharmacophore and that's it from their end. I'm glad to hear you guys are a little more innovative than that.
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there is nothing wrong with going to china or to a manufacturer to make your stuff. In fact, if a product is available elsewhere cheaper than we can make it for then we will go get it from them

making stuff yourself gives you great advantages though. you can develop the material and be the only one with it until others get a third party to make it for them. you get a good head start with exclusivity this way

you also can make stuff on any scale you want, for testing, pilot runs, small or large runs. you have flexibility.

sometimes you can make it cheaper than others buy it

you also do not have to worry about customs issues


i hate it when some people claim they have a lab and make their own stuff when you know they are full of it
 
Patrick Arnold said:
what is supposed to be the advantage of toremefine over other more traditional serms like nolvadex? or is it just popular cuz its new?

clomid has no LH stimulating properties beyond that which is a result of its anti-estrogenic effects on the hypothalamus, so i don't see much difference between that and nolva. only reason why clomid is referred to as an LH stimulator so much is cuz that is what it was marketed as, while nolva was marketed for breast cancer

i am not sure that havoc/epi has estrogen receptor blocking action or anti-aromatase actions. It may just be good for estrogen related disorders because of androgenic actions
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From what I've heard, toremifene and raloxifene are less toxic. But you bring up a good point in questioning their popularity: there's not as much data out on these boys as compared to the bread'n'butter of Nolvadex.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
there is nothing wrong with going to china or to a manufacturer to make your stuff. In fact, if a product is available elsewhere cheaper than we can make it for then we will go get it from them

making stuff yourself gives you great advantages though. you can develop the material and be the only one with it until others get a third party to make it for them. you get a good head start with exclusivity this way

you also can make stuff on any scale you want, for testing, pilot runs, small or large runs. you have flexibility.

sometimes you can make it cheaper than others buy it

you also do not have to worry about customs issues


i hate it when some people claim they have a lab and make their own stuff when you know they are full of it
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Oh there's nothing wrong with sourcing at all. The company I work for sources all the time (costs can vary greatly on by where things are made). What I was getting at is when (if) a company says they've 'innovated' something, when really they just went to a chemical supplier saying "Make this molecule." In this case the majority of the work was not even done by the supplement company, and yet they're taking all the credit for it.
 
thesinner said:
From what I've heard, toremifene and raloxifene are less toxic. But you bring up a good point in questioning their popularity: there's not as much data out on these boys as compared to the bread'n'butter of Nolvadex.
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I am a big proponent of the newers SERMs, on paper they certainly appear to be good superior alternatives to tamoxifen/clomiphene although I admit that there is not yet enough real world feedback to state this conclusively. Early reports are encouraging however.

One of the largest breast cancer prevention clinical trials ever conducted involving nearly 20 thousand women concluded that raloxifene is as effective as tamoxifen in preventing breast cancer whilst causing less undesirable side effects (including a reduced risk of developing associated cancers). I accept that this does not necessarily mean that raloxifene will be as effective a replacement for tamoxifen in PCT, but there is a certain amount of comfort in knowing that it has clinical data supporting it in what could very well be a life or death decision.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
what is supposed to be the advantage of toremefine over other more traditional serms like nolvadex? or is it just popular cuz its new?

clomid has no LH stimulating properties beyond that which is a result of its anti-estrogenic effects on the hypothalamus, so i don't see much difference between that and nolva. only reason why clomid is referred to as an LH stimulator so much is cuz that is what it was marketed as, while nolva was marketed for breast cancer

i am not sure that havoc/epi has estrogen receptor blocking action or anti-aromatase actions. It may just be good for estrogen related disorders because of androgenic actions
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I think a big reason that this has caught on recently is due to the fact that it was pimped so hard by Dr. D a while back (not saying that this is a good or bad thing). Supposedly easier on liver and cholesterol issues...and some just say it works better (usually based on the speed at which "the boys" recovered).

I realize that both nolva and clomid have an impact on both FSH and LH, but I was under the understanding that clomid's impact on LH was more significant...leading to increased test output by the leydig cells. Nolva's was usually the serm of choice because of its affinity for breast tissue (in addition to its LH stimulating properties). I might be way off here though...
 
By the way, its good to see you posting over here again PA.
 
quigs said:
PA, I saw in a previous post that you stated that an OTC post cycle therapy product could be used for your new hormonal. With that being said, I have actually been wondering about your feelings on using toremefine rather than the typical nolva/clomid for PCT? I realize that this has been a newer fad around here (especially with a lot of the new designers) and that the anectdotal feedback seems pretty good. Albeit, most without bloodwork to go alongside.

Also, another question kinda perked my interest was what type of PCT product would be most benificial for a product such as havoc/epistane. These appear to have some anti-estrogen properties, which makes me wonder whether a substance such as clomid (thought of as more of an LH stimulator) would be more effective. It seems to me that the use of nolva is a bit overblown and the use of clomid has decreased...probably due to nolva's preferential affinity for breast tissue...and the average bodybuilder's overwhelming fear of gyno.
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i wonder if the new ax pct product being developed for 3-ad will work well for this new mystery compound
 
I just don't see why everyone is wetting their pants over these new products. No one has even used them to say if they are good or not. Seems a bit weird to me.
 
thesinner said:
Oh there's nothing wrong with sourcing at all. The company I work for sources all the time (costs can vary greatly on by where things are made). What I was getting at is when (if) a company says they've 'innovated' something, when really they just went to a chemical supplier saying "Make this molecule." In this case the majority of the work was not even done by the supplement company, and yet they're taking all the credit for it.
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man you are preaching to the choir on this one.

I have spent endless endless hours on working on the syntheses of all kinds of things, most of which never get to the market. i have spent enormous amounts of money on chemicals to try all different kinds of approaches to things. it took over a year of trial and error to come up with a good method for 1-androstenediol. 6-OXO synthesis was almost as hard to get right

finding a compuond and compiling the research on it and calling someone to make it for you is nothing in comparison. its a joke
 
quigs said:
II realize that both nolva and clomid have an impact on both FSH and LH, but I was under the understanding that clomid's impact on LH was more significant...leading to increased test output by the leydig cells. Nolva's was usually the serm of choice because of its affinity for breast tissue (in addition to its LH stimulating properties). I might be way off here though...
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I have heard it suggested that clomid is better than nolva also, but not sure if it really is. it has been proposed, by bill roberts i think, that clomid may act as an agonist at the pituitary and antagonist at the hypothalamus. But this is probably just a guess on his part

i would love to see studies looking at the endocrinological effects on men of all the serms, anti-aromatases, etc

i also wonder if full antagonists are better than partials. the serms that are agonists at the liver are not good. estrogen activity at the liver increases SHBG (leading to less percent bioavailable testosterone) and they also lower IGF-1 production
 
Stavross said:
I just don't see why everyone is wetting their pants over these new products. No one has even used them to say if they are good or not. Seems a bit weird to me.
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sad actually. thats why so many scam artists are so succesful in this industry
 
Patrick Arnold said:
man you are preaching to the choir on this one.

I have spent endless endless hours on working on the syntheses of all kinds of things, most of which never get to the market. i have spent enormous amounts of money on chemicals to try all different kinds of approaches to things. it took over a year of trial and error to come up with a good method for 1-androstenediol. 6-OXO synthesis was almost as hard to get right

finding a compuond and compiling the research on it and calling someone to make it for you is nothing in comparison. its a joke
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You know it! (And probably a lot more than even I do). I start working for a business unit that supports one of the big 6 American Car makers next week. Essentially, they come in with a set of specifications (weight, strength, durability), and we do everything else.
 
Stavross said:
I just don't see why everyone is wetting their pants over these new products. No one has even used them to say if they are good or not. Seems a bit weird to me.
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Exactly what I was thinking. No one even knows the chemical compounds making up 3-AD or PA's new hormonal product, so why the hell is everyone so psyched? I just sense people jumping on the bandwagon and hoping to get a free bottle so they can test it for the company.

It'd be funny if all this hype was just that: HYPE.
 
AM07 said:
Exactly what I was thinking. No one even knows the chemical compounds making up 3-AD or PA's new hormonal product, so why the hell is everyone so psyched? I just sense people jumping on the bandwagon and hoping to get a free bottle so they can test it for the company.

It'd be funny if all this hype was just that: HYPE.
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hate to break it to you but there are people testing this and running logs right now, maybe you need to look some before proclaiming only hype buddy.
 
poopypants said:
heres a present for ya. Invalid Link Removed

read up and join the "hype". lol
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poopypants

Not for nothing, and I'll say this as politely as I can. That log is worthless.

There are no starting stats (measurements, bodyweight)
There is no diet (carbs, pro, fat)
There is no training log (weight, sets, reps)
There is no training experience.
There is no age.
There is no supplement list.
strength is up and bodyfat is down.
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i have gained 4LBS of muscle mass as well.
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its great 2% fat loss...NO CARDIO!
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diet is consisting of low carbs lots of protein and higher good fats.
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i maxed out the amount of weight on many of the different machines
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i can easily do sets of 60-65 when i normally fall in the set of 40 range
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no shut down,
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LBM and strength i maxed out the weight on the machines i use for reps and i i have gained 4llbs of muscle and dropped 2% bodyfat in a lil over a week
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i heard it is the KING OF ALL PROHORMONES!!!!!!!!!!
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There is absolutely nothing of an ounce of data or even tangible evidence to support anything being said in here.

You green guys should expect a lot more from a tester log and a whole lot more substance to present to represent yourselves and this new product. Your going to let this speak for you and your product? I'm a little disappointed. You of all should know much better. I apologize if this comes of as offensive. You have to remember that some of us are not niave and impressionable 18-24 year olds who run with the latest and greatest crave that the kids are into. Even if it is PA's or Dr.D's or anybody else's. Again I am sorry for offending you.

poops...you're much smarter than this!!!
 
Im very curious where the starting stats and all that are....hoping that log gets a little more detailed for the benefit of the board.
 
B5150 said:
poopypants

Not for nothing, and I'll say this as politely as I can. That log is worthless.

There are no starting stats (measurements, bodyweight)
There is no diet (carbs, pro, fat)
There is no training log (weight, sets, reps)
There is no training experience.
There is no age.
There is no supplement list.
There is absolutely nothing of an ounce of data or even tangible evidence to support anything being said in here.

You green guys should expect a lot more from a tester log and a whole lot more substance to present to represent yourselves and this new product. Your going to let this speak for you and your product? I'm a little disappointed. You of all should know much better. I apologize if this comes of as offensive. You have to remember that some of us are not niave and impressionable 18-24 year olds who run with the latest and greatest crave that the kids are into. Even if it is PA's or Dr.D's or anybody else's. Again I am sorry for offending you.

poops...you're much smarter than this!!!
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true yes that thread has yet to show the rigidity of a log ..... esp as i would run one.

although he has givin valuable feedback and the only firsthand experience with the supp we have so far.... the only other LOGS being ran right now are from the inner circle at AX .com and wont be made public till later im sure.

maybe you should ask big schmidt himself where the solidarity to his log is.... i just find its much more valuable then any of this "hype" these other guys are talking trash about. and no im not offended a bit, its not my log and its not my product to represent.
 
poopypants said:
true yes that thread has yet to show the rigidity of a log ..... esp as i would run one.

although he has givin valuable feedback and the only firsthand experience with the supp we have so far.... the only other LOGS being ran right now are from the inner circle at AX .com and wont be made public till later im sure.

maybe you should ask big schmidt himself where the solidarity to his log is.... i just find its much more valuable then any of this "hype" these other guys are talking trash about. and no im not offended a bit, its not my log and its not my product to represent.
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It's not the best info, but it's the best we've got to look at right now, eh?

Are you gonna be logging this product when it comes out? Your logs are very detailed (sometimes a little too detailed for my attention span) but detailed nonetheless.
 
ya def, ive always loved loggin EVERYTHING i do as it keeps me motivated knowing all know exactly what im doing and makes me happy to know people can go back and see what exactly does or does not work.

that is unless im asked by IBE to do somethin else but i doubt highly that theyd ask me not to. everyone would stand to benifit from such a log.
 
PA brought us the real deal with 1-AD. He sparked a fury in the stimulant/fat burning industry with a groundbreaking product called AMP, and his company's MASSMEAL and GFPro aren't too shabby either. I know he's loyal to Illinois, but if he was from Texas, I'd say "Don't mess with Texas."
 
poopypants said:
hate to break it to you but there are people testing this and running logs right now, maybe you need to look some before proclaiming only hype buddy.
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I think intelligent consumers desire scientific facts on the compound itself and are not gonna be content with anecdotal reports where you don't even know how much the guy is taking
 
poopypants said:
hate to break it to you but there are people testing this and running logs right now, maybe you need to look some before proclaiming only hype buddy.
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take a look at the way you are talking to this guy poopy. you are being a sarcastic and condescending Ahole

the man you are responding to had a perfectly acceptable concern. you immediately took offense for some reason

you really have to change your attitude
 
Patrick Arnold said:
intelligent consumers
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All evidence suggests that they have been placed on the endangered species list.

What far too many seem to forget is that "testing" and "consuming" are not the same thing.
 
im sorry thats the way you interpreted my post PA but that was not my intention so AM07 if you gathered i was being condesending im sorry that was not my intentions.

I personally apreciate the feedback we are getting as anacdotal as it may be as its the only insight to the product we have thus far and i dont think everyone should refer to it as "just hype" thats where our opinions differ and lets just leave it at that. let us just leave this alone it will not get us anywhere.
 
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