IBE is in TROUBLE!!!!!!!

Who Do You Support

  • IBE "Epistane"

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • RPN "Havoc"

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Total voters
    1
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1Fast400 said:
Neo, all I ask is that you READ what is written. Your comment on bb.com was stupid. I called you out on it. When you make a statement, that is easily refuted by about 30 people 3 pages prior, that should tell you something.

Anyway, hoping results come tomorrow.
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neo's a good guy...kinda funny...but a good guy none the less...




on another note? RESULTS?? Mike, you have me excited...it's kinda like christmas in april...

the anticipation has been pretty damn good...

one more thing...after you post the results are you going to give the lab name or are you going to still keep that one to yourself?
 
PumpingIron said:
neo's a good guy...kinda funny...but a good guy none the less...

on another note? RESULTS?? Mike, you have me excited...it's kinda like christmas in april...

the anticipation has been pretty damn good...

one more thing...after you post the results are you going to give the lab name or are you going to still keep that one to yourself?
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I thought it was the same lab as before. Either way my guess is its name and address would show in the tracking.
 
prove to us you lie, you cross your self with your own words just within this one thread let alone if we were to start cross referencing this thread with that at BB.com.....
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Rather than paint these broad lies, why not show me where I've done all this lying. I can backup every single statement I've made.

I never sold M1T "under the counter". I sold it when it was legal, when it was illegal, I quit. It's that whole LAW thing I tend to follow. I never said Epistane didn't work. This whole deal is about mislabeling. IBE has openly admitted they have yet to do 3rd party testing and are just going to do it now. I'm glad this compound seems to work, but with no testing, they could have been sent a bag of estrodiol and you guys wouldn't have known the difference. You guys got lucky, this time.
 
I've always used the same lab for testing, if people followed threads on bb.com, some info has been released as to who the lab is. My main reason for not saying anything is so douche bags don't go calling the lab saying: "should I buy havoc or epistane". It's already happened to a small degree
 
understandable...i just don't venture to that board very often...makes my head hurt...

no big deal, i'm sure someone other than 1fast can assure the validity of the lab and it's methods.
 
The lab has about 500 credentials. IBE has just recently used them I believe. One of the main chemist has an usual name and i've seen them name drop him over the past week or so.
 
1Fast400 said:
This whole deal is about mislabeling.
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This seems to be an issue in the supplement industry, and it is unfortunate as it can only lead to problems and possibly more regulation. In the cases when it does happen, I certainly hope that it is not done intentionally by any companies.
 
size does make a good point for 1fast though...3rd part QA testing is something all companies should practice...is prima going to do this, i hope?
 
I don't think anyone does it on purpose. Our industry suffers from a HUGE QC problem. That is because these companies aren't started like REAL companies are, with seed money. Most of these companies are started for less than 30 grand. They simply don't have the funds to do the proper QC. Now, if it's taurine, glutamine and creatine, that's a different animal. These compounds are difficult to make and are widely available. However, when you're coming out with something novel and difficult to make, such as this compound. Then you need to test. However, some companies don't want to do that because they are afraid of the results. This stuff was likely going for 7-10k a kilo. These companies didn't want to find out the material was bunk, only to be hodling 7-10k. If they just put it out, they can claim 100 different things (as they are now).

Don't claim to be the savior to the "bro's" on the board, when you don't even test your own stuff. That is what drives me nuts. If you're up front about it, people will respect you a A LOT more in the end.
 
Prima has an entire thread on bb.com showing testing results off all the products. Hell that is for simple stuff. See my above post in regard to QC and certain items. When we PO an ingredient, we'll do enough for 5-6 months. So one test covers us for awhile.
 
1Fast400 said:
Our industry suffers from a HUGE QC problem. That is because these companies aren't started like REAL companies are, with seed money. Most of these companies are started for less than 30 grand. They simply don't have the funds to do the proper QC.
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Excellent points. Unfortunately, it is the consumer who suffers from the poor QC in this industry.
 
1Fast400 said:
I never said Epistane didn't work. This whole deal is about mislabeling. IBE has openly admitted they have yet to do 3rd party testing and are just going to do it now. I'm glad this compound seems to work, but with no testing, they could have been sent a bag of estrodiol and you guys wouldn't have known the difference. You guys got lucky, this time.
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Exactly!

poopypants said:
well let me know since ill want to congratulate IBE tomorrow for puttin whatever it is in there as it works GREAT. as for you, you have your own motives as clouded as they may be and im SOOOO glad you have a noncompete.... youve done nothin but attack the helpfull around here and prove to us you lie, you cross your self with your own words just within this one thread let alone if we were to start cross referencing this thread with that at BB.com..... hope you had fun wastin "a couple grand" get the testing done as anyone can look at my log and SEE what Epi will do regardless..... way to be runner up after BK in the biggest douche of the year contest.
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The point behind it was to bring awareness to the community IF the product is not what the label claims. If anything you should thank Mike for doing this for us. IF this does in fact bring back results that Epistane is not what it claims it brings up a valid point. Who knows what the rest of IBE's products are if they are not verifying that the product is in fact what the label claims.

You may as well buy a bottle without a label off the street from some bum saying "you'll get big from this" if you truly don't care what's in the bottle.

Anyway let's just see what the results come back with.
 
yeahright said:
For some reason, PA, BK and MM have all aligned to attack IBE's product and praise RPN's product. The question in my mind is in whose interests they are acting?

I have some ideas but from my vantage point (personal opinion) it appears that others have conspired to pit IBE and RPN against each other.
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It might not be a good idea, but since we've seen no results yet, I'm gonna go ahead and play conspiracy theorist.

I assume PA is still involved with Ergopharm? And BK is still with Gaspari? And now MM owns Primaforce? If that's true, these are three guys affiliated with competitive supp companies, who used to love selling hormones, but have since stopped. It seems it would be in their interest to bash, if not destroy, the hormone industry. I've heard rumors of other similar companies doing the same thing. Of course like any good conspiracy, it's hard to prove at this point.
 
People that think any company needs to destory another company is crazy. There is well over a billion dollars of supplement business out there.

There is NOTHING good that comes from companies making illegal products, period. It does nothing but bring negative attention to our industry. When all you guys are *****ing about the limited number of supplements we have in 2 years, think back to now.

To kill your theory, if we were honestly trying to get rid of hormones, we'd be going after everyone. The only thing any of us have said, is that epistane is mislabeled, nothing else. If we wanted to see an end to hormones, we'd go after everyone.
 
Look I dont have anything against anyone involved here, I dont know 1Fast, and have no relationship to ibe or rpn, other than being a satisfied customer, and I would like to see full disclosure from both companies, But I do have a few things I would like to comment on:

1Fast400 said:
People that think any company needs to destory another company is crazy.
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Wants and needs are certainly two different things.....

1Fast400 said:
There is well over a billion dollars of supplement business out there.
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And two thirds of that is pure absolute garbage sold by: fancy marketing, ad campaigns, gimmicks, paid endorsements, bogus quoting of scientific studies, manipulating of under eductated consumers, tricky wording and down right lies on product lables.

1Fast400 said:
There is NOTHING good that comes from companies making illegal products, period.
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Making money is good, and you cannot condemn what you did in the past, which helped build your business(s)?

1Fast400 said:
To kill your theory, if we were honestly trying to get rid of hormones, we'd be going after everyone. The only thing any of us have said, is that epistane is mislabeled, nothing else. If we wanted to see an end to hormones, we'd go after everyone.
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It really might be worthwhile to carefully examine what actions you and your boys take in the future in relation to this last part of your post, and what kind of controversys, accusations and insults you throw around online, because while you sit back typing at your keyboard getting everyone all hyped up, you should really think about what might actually happen in the real world if you should start to really mess around with peoples lives and livelyhoods. Its a dangerous road you might be travelling and you might want to think about how it would be if you had to constantly look over your shoulder. I would hate to read about you taking out your trash one late night and somebody rolled up on you four deep, and it was a wrap.

Just a piece of personal advice, take it or leave it.
 
PumpingIron said:
understandable...i just don't venture to that board very often...makes my head hurt...

no big deal, i'm sure someone other than 1fast can assure the validity of the lab and it's methods.
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It's RTP labs. They are legit, as Mike said.


Mike - good QC does not come from n=1 samples. Statistics can tell one quite useful information.
Sadly, as you mention - the money isn't really there to gather a proper amount of data to do a complete analysis of a lot of whatever supplement.

I'm honestly trying not to pick on you. I have a point with that statement: your lab sample of Epistane is only one data point.
That does not mean your data set is infallible.
I could theorize a ****-ton of ways that result you post is bad data (whether it comes back "on spec" for Epi or "off spec" is immaterial).
I'm good at theories.
Problem is - theories are bullsh*t without a test (as a noted chemical industry consultant - NP Liebermann - says).
What would be a test of any of my theories? More data (i.e. results from RTP labs).

Anyway - just trying to give you (and everyone else) a big picture view.
Your pursuit of data is noble IMO. I like data. I appreciate your efforts (not sure of your agenda in doing so though - but who cares what Jmh80 thinks).
Pissing and moaning on message boards is always easier though.
Just not sure one result really tells anyone of sound mind and body that Epi is off spec.

Looking forward to the data, Mike.
Again - thanks.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
 
1Fast400 said:
There is NOTHING good that comes from companies making illegal products, period.
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From the business perspective you can arguably say this as a definite. From a consumer perspective, it could definitely be argued against. E.G. In the supp industry, there is about a 99% occurrence of total CRAP for supplements. The other 1% of products are illegal, or the few good products that aren't illegal.

Lets not lie to ourselves, most BB products really suck.

Note: 99% isn't an "exact" number. Yes, I pulled it out of my arse, so if it makes you feel better replace 99% with vast majority.
 
Guys, there isn't that much CRAP out there. There are things that over OVERPRICED, but not crap. There is a big difference. Muscletech pushes the limit no doubt. However, I think most of us would agree that optimum, bsn and eas put out decent supplements. Those 3 account for over 500 million dollars in business. You guys want to defend "the little guy" by saying they are the only ones that make "good" stuff, it's just BS. The reason some small comanies make things cheaper than bigger companies is because they work out of a garage and have no overhead. They don't do QC testing. So they don't have the costs involved.

Making money is good, and you cannot condemn what you did in the past, which helped build your business(s)?
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When I sold PH, they were legal, BIG difference. I spent 75,000 dollars with the USFA lobbying the government to give us an extra 6 months to sell that stuff. Plenty of people that took from the pie didn't give a single thing.

It really might be worthwhile to carefully examine what actions you and your boys take in the future in relation to this last part of your post
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Go look at some of my past debates. This is a patty cake fest compared to stuff in the past. When BK and I were at our peak of hatred, he sent an email which I got a copy of with him stating he was going to ass rape my girlfriend and then kill her. Why did he act this way? I cost him quite a bit of money when I caught him in a lie. BK and I have since left the past. If I made decisions based on potential actions by others, I wouldn't have done many of the things I did in my past. I'm going to throw it at people straight, weather they want to hear it or not. The reason why people think I lie so much is because they aren't USED to someone being straight up and honest with them.

Think about it, so many people assume I have to have some weird motive because why else would someone go through all this hell. You can't make everyone happy. When the test results come, I'll simply post whatever the lab gives me. I'll let everyone else argue over what it says.
 
Dude, god himself could swear on these results and no matter what they say, people will argue over it
 
Okay, I'll agree with this: of total supplements produced most of it is good stuff, even if overpriced (mostly because most things produced are protein powders, creatine, aa's, etc). But, of the "products" produced most are either total crap or hardly worth the money people pay for them.

Food, food, food is the key. The only time supps are useful IMHO are when they're a) a cheap and convenient alternative to foods, b) cheap enough to warrant the small benefit you get from them, c) anabolic enough to warrant spending $30-60/bottle.
 
^^^^^
So many people think they just eat so much, they're always like "dude you have no idea how much i eat." When they really dont and they want to shove hormones into their bodies and even at that if they dont know how to eat they will get lackluster results.

Oh yeah and I did'nt get in on the calculator talk TI-83+. Yeah so...........
 
1Fast400 said:
Dude, god himself could swear on these results and no matter what they say, people will argue over it
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Yeah, but there are two reasons for that: 1) Most people have no idea what the hell they're looking at for the most part. 2) We'd need some strong NMR data to really put this molecule together.
 
Correct but proton NMR would'nt really give us everything here I think. Well it might but coupled with 13C that would be ideal.

By the way are you eating ben and jerry's in that pic.

Perfect mass building supp.
 
friction515 said:
^^^^^
So many people think they just eat so much, they're always like "dude you have no idea how much i eat." When they really dont and they want to shove hormones into their bodies and even at that if they dont know how to eat they will get lackluster results.

Oh yeah and I did'nt get in on the calculator talk TI-83+. Yeah so...........
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If people ate as much (clean, and often) as they thought they did they'd be hungry all the time and not full. That very short duration of time where I ate good and clean, via bobo's dietary advice (good but impossible for a fatass like me with a sweet tooth), my metabolism went nuts and I was leaning out with 4000kcal/day.
 
And exactly why arguments make it here. Many people recognize its easy to convince an idiot that they're right. Hence, the success of our current politicians and their staunch "belief" that everyone should have the right to vote.
 
If people ate as much (clean, and often) as they thought they did they'd be hungry all the time and not full. That very short duration of time where I ate good and clean, via bobo's dietary advice (good but impossible for a fatass like me with a sweet tooth), my metabolism went nuts and I was leaning out with 4000kcal/day
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Probably the best post I've seen in quite some time. I've never been a big fan of supplements. You'll never find a thread with me pushing a bunch of BS. Hence buying primaforce. It wasn't a kitchen sink company and never will be now. Just basics. I personally see no need to buy anything beyond:

Multi
Protein
Creatine
BCAA's (if cutting)
Glutamine (if overtraining or during winter/cold season)
Fat burner of choice

Now, there is a need for certain things on an individual basis, such as joint products. However, for the most part, the above, with a good diet will get you great results.
 
When I actually do something that resembles eating like a fitness enthusiast/bodybuilder and am actually working out (very infrequently), you'll find protein + multis + creatine and if I've got money I'd add EAA's. Sounds like a good list to me.
 
I used to cycle like crazy and just bounce up and down. Until I was able to get consistant clean eating down it was just a rollercoaster. I must admit people comment constantly on how boring my diet seems. Tons of brown rice about 4 chicken breasts a day. gallon of milk a day a can or two of tuna thrown in there. oatmeal and lots of eggs for breakfast. peanut butter cottage cheese and home baked bread.

Thats my constant supplement regimine. I throw all the other stuff in there when this starts to stall now. Not the other way around.
 
I just got back into things 3 weeks ago. I'm an all or nothing person. I went through a bad depression phase from november-march. Took a bit for me to realize it. I just ate my f'ing brains out. I'm naturally thin, so I just changed bf, but stayed the same weight. I've been eating quite a bit (for me), slowly losing bf and putting on muscle. Good feeling to be back into it
 
I've been in the gym a hand full of times since oct' 05, just because I'm lazy. I hate being back in the gym. If it weren't for my ego, I don't think I'd ever be there. :D I hate being back, but its nice to get a little muscle back on. That and I need to get rid of my annoying ass puffy tits that develop when I get fatter.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
c) anabolic enough to warrant spending $30-60/bottle.
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That's what gets me on most of them, the price per dose that even if taken in an effective amount would give for most imperceptable gains over just eating and training right.

But also remember, gaining muscle isn't the only end to which we put supplements. Fish oil, multis, libido boosters to keep you feeling happy and going good, mood enhancers, sleep aids, etc. There's a world of stuff out there that does work.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
I've been in the gym a hand full of times since oct' 05, just because I'm lazy. I hate being back in the gym. If it weren't for my ego, I don't think I'd ever be there. :D I hate being back, but its nice to get a little muscle back on. That and I need to get rid of my annoying ass puffy tits that develop when I get fatter.
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That's damn near a year and a half. How do you manage that? I ****ed both my feet up taking a tumble down the stairs a few weeks ago and I'm alreayd chaffing to lift something. But then it's always been psychological with me. I lift and am still a fat ass. I figure I could be a strong one at least.

1fast, the lifting is one of the best things for treating depression. Trust me. I went up and down for a long time, consistent exercise is the only thing that ever worked for keeping me on an even keel.
 
propho said:
Exactly!

The point behind it was to bring awareness to the community IF the product is not what the label claims. If anything you should thank Mike for doing this for us.
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I do want to say thank you to Mike ( who is not a Dr. just so you all know ) that the posts he wrote on page 15 were well written and did not attack anyone. Thank you for speaking Mike as a normal non a$$hole human being. You are worth more to us all on every board like this.

As for the results I will comment once I see them and we can see the whole thing fiasco in it's fullness.:woohoo:
 
I agree with CDB on the whole lifting thing. That is the only thing that gets me through I have some crazy anxiety and intense depression when I'm not in the gym.

I've also noticed cutting corn syrip and caffeine and all stimulants out of my life lowers the frequency and intensity of my panic attacks and bouts of depression a great deal.
 
CDB said:
That's damn near a year and a half. How do you manage that? I ****ed both my feet up taking a tumble down the stairs a few weeks ago and I'm alreayd chaffing to lift something. But then it's always been psychological with me. I lift and am still a fat ass. I figure I could be a strong one at least.
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I was born lazy. :)
 
friction515 said:
I agree with CDB on the whole lifting thing. That is the only thing that gets me through I have some crazy anxiety and intense depression when I'm not in the gym.
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Yup. I can already feel myself taking swings up and down right now. But any meaningful exercise involves putting pressure on the feet and the toes on my left foot and my right ankle still aren't up for it. So I'm kinda screwed for another week or so.
 
CDB said:
Yup. I can already feel myself taking swings up and down right now. But any meaningful exercise involves putting pressure on the feet and the toes on my left foot and my right ankle still aren't up for it. So I'm kinda screwed for another week or so.
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Are you doing bench or anything for now?
 
friction515 said:
Are you doing bench or anything for now?
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Nope. Still got to keep your feet firmly planted for that and even in that regard I've only been able to do so for the last week. I hit my right ankle and/or heel the wrong way, it still hurts like a son of a *****. I can at least walk on it now though. The toes, they're another story. I thought I broke two, they were just real badly bruised from hitting an iron railing. Stayed more black than blue for about a week and a half and are finally bendable and resembling flesh tones again.

It was a rough fall. My right leg shot out and I skipped three steps and all ~290 pounds of me stiff legged my right ankle full speed into the fourth step. I then fell to the right, dragged my arm along the sheet rock as I fell and got a damn nice wall burn skab up my whole forearm. My left foot, uninvolved until this point smashed toes first into one steel rail support, then another, then another, then another until I finally stopped one step from the bottom where a pile of shattered glass which I had dropped on my initial slip was waiting to lacerate me. So I actually got off lucky as I lived and didn't get cut or break my neck. But my feet are still not quite right and even though I think I could bp right now without a problem, deadlifts, squats and bent over rows are out for at least another week.
 
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