VARICOCELE...can it effect testosterone?

sammowise said:
I finally got my second set of tests back (a week late... they somehow lost them the first time I went in :rolleyes: ) So here thery are:

testosterone, total 273 ng/dL 250-1100
testosterone, free 47.7 pg/mL 35.0-155.0
% free testosterone 1.75 1.1-2.8

LH 1.9 mIU/mL 1.5-9.3
FSH 1.4 mIU/mL 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 8.4 ng/mL 2.0-18.0

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of the hpta, low LH and FSH probably means my testicles probably aren't the problem, corrent?

The urologist I was seeing said he didn't want to prescribe testosterone replacement since it was still in range. However, he seems to realize that there definately is something wrong, so he's sending my to an endocrinologist instead. (At least he can admit he doesn't know enough about it...)

I'm guessing I should now be looking into the possibility of either 1) pituitary problems of some sort or 2) elevated estrogen levels.

thoughts?
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The T is very low. The low FSH and LH are probably the cause as the testes are not been told to make T. You probably need T and HCG. The HCG will put the testes to work. 250iu HCG injected SQ/SC EOD might be tried alone. It will take a while for the testes to get back up to speed. Then a test for T levels would indicate if you need more T. But you doc may go right to the T.

Future tests will need to also get E2 estrogen levels.
 
Well, Im going back to the Urologist Friday becase it seems like the Varicocele is still there and the surgery was about 2 months ago. I dont know how long it typically takes to heal.
 
The varicoceles never actually go away hyde. Once you have it, it's always there, surgery or not. Basically the surgery does improve matters (this is known) with regards to pain and sometimes sperm/testosterone levels but other times it makes it worse. It's usually best to get it fixed though to out-rule it.

I would request a color doppler ultrasound and also more recent blood work to see how thing's are going. Have your testicles increased in size at all?
 
I had the surgery in the end of august.. Doc told me it was pretty big and had to remove some vessels.. and that there would be scar tissue left.. Now I think I can feel another varicocele forming so I'm going to make an appointment with the urologist tomorrow.. Should I ask for bloodwork to check test levels? What else should I have checked? last time I didn't know how it effected test and the doctor never said anything and never did bloodwork to check my testosterone.. I had a pretty bad one my left testicle was atrophied so I probably had some lowered test/sperm production..
 
Megazoid said:
The varicoceles never actually go away hyde. Once you have it, it's always there, surgery or not. Basically the surgery does improve matters (this is known) with regards to pain and sometimes sperm/testosterone levels but other times it makes it worse. It's usually best to get it fixed though to out-rule it.

I would request a color doppler ultrasound and also more recent blood work to see how thing's are going. Have your testicles increased in size at all?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it seems like they have increased in size, but the wierd thing is is that they dont hang as low as they used to. I'm using some clomid right now and that seems to be helping a lot. I do feel a marked improvement now as to before my Varicocele ligation. My Urologist says it will go away in time. I dont really see why a Varicocele should'nt go away because you are redirecting blood flow to another vein.
 
Hyde12 said:
Yeah, it seems like they have increased in size, but the wierd thing is is that they dont hang as low as they used to. I'm using some clomid right now and that seems to be helping a lot. I do feel a marked improvement now as to before my Varicocele ligation. My Urologist says it will go away in time. I dont really see why a Varicocele should'nt go away because you are redirecting blood flow to another vein.
Click to expand...

The size and hanging are both LH related. Clomid will raise your LH and that should do the trick if your hypothalamus and pituitary are up to the task.

The testes are also responsive to DHT and that depends on T to make that. So that is a time delay. The levels of T inside the testes are around 100 times that of serum. So there will be more than enough T inside the testes.

HCG could be used to hurry things along, but that is repressive and would set back your own LH response.

As E levels do create a negative feedback on LH, E can impede your progress. While you are taking clomid, you are blinding your hypothalamus to the E levels and the LH levels will raise. There will be increased E and T. Note that the increased E will create increased interference at T receptors.

Note that the T levels will also raise and the E & SHBG levels typically then increase as well. If you stop the clomid suddenly, the hypothalamus will suddenly be exposed to all of that E and again you have a setback in your progress. So you will need to taper off of that clomid just like someone on PCT. One could use an AI to manage that transition as well.

Some guys get emotional from clomid from its estrogenic side effects, something common with some estrogentic SERMs. There are SERMs that do not have those sides. The increased E from a SERM can improve arterial endothelial function and skin tone. But I suspect that the increased E will promote or retain female-like fat patterns that many can shed with effective TRT. E is also now considered the major culprit for prostate enlargement and inflammation.
 
KSman said:
The size and hanging are both LH related. Clomid will raise your LH and that should do the trick if your hypothalamus and pituitary are up to the task.

The testes are also responsive to DHT and that depends on T to make that. So that is a time delay. The levels of T inside the testes are around 100 times that of serum. So there will be more than enough T inside the testes.

HCG could be used to hurry things along, but that is repressive and would set back your own LH response.

As E levels do create a negative feedback on LH, E can impede your progress. While you are taking clomid, you are blinding your hypothalamus to the E levels and the LH levels will raise. There will be increased E and T. Note that the increased E will create increased interference at T receptors.

Note that the T levels will also raise and the E & SHBG levels typically then increase as well. If you stop the clomid suddenly, the hypothalamus will suddenly be exposed to all of that E and again you have a setback in your progress. So you will need to taper off of that clomid just like someone on post cycle therapy. One could use an AI to manage that transition as well.

Some guys get emotional from clomid from its estrogenic side effects, something common with some estrogentic SERMs. There are SERMs that do not have those sides. The increased E from a SERM can improve arterial endothelial function and skin tone. But I suspect that the increased E will promote or retain female-like fat patterns that many can shed with effective TRT. E is also now considered the major culprit for prostate enlargement and inflammation.
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Im running a mild AI (ADED) inverse of the Clomid. Im only taking 50mg ED. I suspect that some of my problem is DHT related. I was really low on the DHT side of the house a couple of months ago. I really wish my Dr. could give me an RX for DHT.
 
KSman said:
E is also now considered the major culprit for prostate enlargement and inflammation.
Click to expand...

KSman;
I have enlarged prostate plus frequent urination problem
My last Oct06 test

Total Estrogens---260pg/mL (40-115)
estrone, serum----78pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive----27pg/mL (3-70)
Progesterone----1.4ng/dL(0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone----23ng/dL(10–200)
Total Testosterone---932ng/dL(241-827)
Free Testosterone--36.5pg/mL(6.6-18.1)
DHT (dihydrotestosterone---226ng/dL (30-85)

I have since reduced amount of testosterone and added HCG and pregnenolone cream.

Question:
What would you advice to lower my TotalE and Estrone, possibly E2.

I am taking 4 pills of (Dual-action) DIM from LEF
and 1000 mg TMG
among other supplements.
------------------------------------------------------------
The 4 DIM pills I am taking for the last about month and half.
Before it was just 1 or two. I had dark urine. Now is wery clear.
I heard that DIM afects urine color.
 
JanSz said:
KSman;
I have enlarged prostate plus frequent urination problem
My last Oct06 test

Total Estrogens---260pg/mL (40-115)
estrone, serum----78pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive----27pg/mL (3-70)
Progesterone----1.4ng/dL(0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone----23ng/dL(10–200)
Total Testosterone---932ng/dL(241-827)
Free Testosterone--36.5pg/mL(6.6-18.1)
DHT (dihydrotestosterone---226ng/dL (30-85)

I have since reduced amount of testosterone and added HCG and pregnenolone cream.

Question:
What would you advice to lower my TotalE and Estrone, possibly E2.

I am taking 4 pills of (Dual-action) DIM from LEF
and 1000 mg TMG
among other supplements.
------------------------------------------------------------
The 4 DIM pills I am taking for the last about month and half.
Before it was just 1 or two. I had dark urine. Now is very clear.
I heard that DIM affects urine color.
Click to expand...

Any signs if too much E such as brain fog, ED, libido, mood etc.

Many suggest that E should be closer to 17.

How is the nocturnal and morning wood? Your FT and DHT levels are high. Hormone response is a balance between the T and E. You might be in fine shape in many ways as the E might be overwhelmed by the other hormones.

How much DIM and how long prior to that BW? Did you have any prior BW showing E higher before starting the DIM?

E can be bad for the prostate, but perhaps your high DHT could be a problem as well. What is the history of the BPH relative to the TRT?

Do you take any botanicals for the BPH? This might be quite useful.
 
KSman said:
Any signs if too much E such as brain fog, ED, libido, mood etc.

Many suggest that E should be closer to 17.

How is the nocturnal and morning wood? Your FT and DHT levels are high. Hormone response is a balance between the T and E. You might be in fine shape in many ways as the E might be overwhelmed by the other hormones.

How much DIM and how long prior to that BW? Did you have any prior BW showing E higher before starting the DIM?

E can be bad for the prostate, but perhaps your high DHT could be a problem as well. What is the history of the BPH relative to the TRT?

Do you take any botanicals for the BPH? This might be quite useful.
Click to expand...

History of my TotalE and E2 is not linear.

............. Total E----E2
10/4/2005 ----///----- 38
8/26/2005 -----53---- 38
5/5/2006 ----- 65-----26
10/31/2006 ----260---- 27

The DHT is high because I stopped using Avodart. With daily Avodart it is DHT=29 (30-85)
I had enlarged prostate before I stared on T supplementation four years ago.
I am taking DIM (made by LEF) for long time (over 2 years), but per their advice I was taking only one pill daily. Now I take four. I did not feel much difference from that increase except that after about a month of use my urine got much lighter and (I think) less smelly.
I have a morning wood rather often, that does not translate to better performance.
----------------------------
Wonder if there is anybody who's prostate got better when their estrogen dropped?
----------------------------
I am taking LEF products,
Invalid Link Removed
Super MiraForte with Maximum Strength Chrysin

Invalid Link Removed
Advanced Natural Prostate Formula with 5-Loxin
==========================================================
I think not only my E2 is little high but Total E is out of line all together, any sugestions here?
 
JanSz said:
History of my TotalE and E2 is not linear.

............. Total E----E2
10/4/2005 ----///----- 38
8/26/2005 -----53---- 38
5/5/2006 ----- 65-----26
10/31/2006 ----260---- 27

The DHT is high because I stopped using Avodart. With daily Avodart it is DHT=29 (30-85)
I had enlarged prostate before I stared on T supplementation four years ago.
I am taking DIM (made by LEF) for long time (over 2 years), but per their advice I was taking only one pill daily. Now I take four. I did not feel much difference from that increase except that after about a month of use my urine got much lighter and (I think) less smelly.
I have a morning wood rather often, that does not translate to better performance.
----------------------------
Wonder if there is anybody who's prostate got better when their estrogen dropped?
----------------------------
I am taking LEF products,
Invalid Link Removed
Super MiraForte with Maximum Strength Chrysin

Invalid Link Removed
Advanced Natural Prostate Formula with 5-Loxin
==========================================================
I think not only my E2 is little high but Total E is out of line all together, any sugestions here?
Click to expand...

The Natural Prostate Formula is actually what I had in mind.

The MiraForte did not work for me, there are a few things that I don't absorb like that.

By one measure, morning wood, your E is not too high.

E dose make the prostate worse for guys with syndrome X who are estrogen dominant. For them, TRT and lowering E will help. But if they are showing signs of cancer, no doc would touch TRT.

Sounds like you are doing a lot already and the next step for lower E would be anastrozole/arimidex. How you feel would be your guide to its effectiveness. How do you feel?

I am not familar with testing of E for guys other that just E2. So I cannot comment.
 
KSman said:
The Natural Prostate Formula is actually what I had in mind.

The MiraForte did not work for me, there are a few things that I don't absorb like that.

By one measure, morning wood, your E is not too high.

E dose make the prostate worse for guys with syndrome X who are estrogen dominant. For them, TRT and lowering E will help. But if they are showing signs of cancer, no doc would touch TRT.

Sounds like you are doing a lot already and the next step for lower E would be anastrozole/arimidex. How you feel would be your guide to its effectiveness. How do you feel?

I am not familar with testing of E for guys other that just E2. So I cannot comment.
Click to expand...

Explain connection of lowering E and cancer.
I do have a cancer in my left tigh, sarcoma.
I had about 6 biopsies, no prostate cancer.

I do have Arimidex, will probably start using it latter.
I want to get first my blood test.
I would like to see changes if any due to my increased DIM intake.
 
JanSz said:
Explain connection of lowering E and cancer.
I do have a cancer in my left tigh, sarcoma.
I had about 6 biopsies, no prostate cancer.

I do have Arimidex, will probably start using it latter.
I want to get first my blood test.
I would like to see changes if any due to my increased DIM intake.
Click to expand...

Greater E leads to more BPH
More BPH leads to higher risk of prostate cancer
Less E, less BPH etc.
 
Hello , Megazoid you wrote in one post that coffe and alcohol
can make things worse with varicocele , is this true?
 
Caffeine based intake will aggrevate the small blood vessels around that area and if you have varicocele you will notice more pain than usual.

Alcholol is toxic to the leydig cells and because varicocele already causes significant damage to the cells on the testicle. It would be wise to avoid both imho.
 
Megazoid said:
Caffeine based intake will aggrevate the small blood vessels around that area and if you have varicocele you will notice more pain than usual.

Alcholol is toxic to the leydig cells and because varicocele already causes significant damage to the cells on the testicle. It would be wise to avoid both imho.[/QUOTE

Just wanted to give a quick update. Ever since the surgery and the short run of clomid inverse of an AI, I am feeling a million times better!
Click to expand...
 
Very, very pleased to hear this Hyde. Great news! I wonder if the HCG will work for me then? Can you still feel the varicocele and do you ever get pain in the area?
 
Megazoid said:
Very, very pleased to hear this Hyde. Great news! I wonder if the HCG will work for me then? Can you still feel the varicocele and do you ever get pain in the area?
Click to expand...

No pain at all. The Varicocele is going away more and more everyday. I think It just takes a while. Dude, why dont you try to get off the TRT and HCG? Go to the post cyce therapy forum and you will get much help in this area. How will you ever know if your nuts will work again if you keep blasting them with Test and HCG? Read through the posts here and you will not see very many people who have success on TRT. I hate to say it, but it seems true. See if your Doc can give you an RX for Clomid or you can run the HCG and then run the Clomid, I recommend running an over the counter AI with the Clomid to prevent estrogen rebound. Check out the posts by Dr. D.
 
Hyde12 said:
No pain at all. The Varicocele is going away more and more everyday. I think It just takes a while. Dude, why dont you try to get off the TRT and HCG? Go to the post cyce therapy forum and you will get much help in this area. How will you ever know if your nuts will work again if you keep blasting them with Test and HCG? Read through the posts here and you will not see very many people who have success on TRT. I hate to say it, but it seems true. See if your Doc can give you an RX for Clomid or you can run the HCG and then run the Clomid, I recommend running an over the counter AI with the Clomid to prevent estrogen rebound. Check out the posts by Dr. D.
Click to expand...

There are two (possibly more) different possibilities.

1. Somebody who do have a possiblity of recover, but does not recover because of of incorrect approach.

2. Primary, or half way, like me (67yo).
I started four years ago.
TotalT 311(241-827)
LH-5.7(1.5-9.3)
E2-24(0-52)
For three years I had only blood tests and Androgel available by script plus Arimidex by mail.
Now I have anything I want.
Added HCG (250IU every other day) in an effort to recover my native Testosterone + anything else testis are producing. I am two month into HCG. Testicles recovered size wise.
Do I have a better choice?
 
JanSz said:
There are two (possibly more) different possibilities.

1. Somebody who do have a possiblity of recover, but does not recover because of of incorrect approach.

2. Primary, or half way, like me (67yo).
I started four years ago.
TotalT 311(241-827)
LH-5.7(1.5-9.3)
E2-24(0-52)
For three years I had only blood tests and Androgel available by script plus Arimidex by mail.
Now I have anything I want.
Added HCG (250IU every other day) in an effort to recover my native Testosterone + anything else testis are producing. I am two month into HCG. Testicles recovered size wise.
Do I have a better choice?
Click to expand...

HCG isnt your natural testosterone. Have you ever tried Clomid?
 
All the drug companies want to do is make money off their stupid androgel (which seems like its making everyone feel worse) This is why they banned 4ad and other andro products because you could get your testosterone and not have to worry about a script. They dont want you to recover because they would make no money off of Testosterone (remember TRT is for life) so this is why they will almost never even try Clomid or Nolva. Hell, they even put synthetic estrogen in your household products (paraben) to lower your testosterone and cause you to get a script.
 
Hyde12 said:
All the drug companies want to do is make money off their stupid androgel (which seems like its making everyone feel worse) This is why they banned 4ad and other andro products because you could get your testosterone and not have to worry about a script. They dont want you to recover because they would make no money off of Testosterone (remember TRT is for life) so this is why they will almost never even try Clomid or Nolva. Hell, they even put synthetic estrogen in your household products (paraben) to lower your testosterone and cause you to get a script.
Click to expand...

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If you have solid info on paraben,
revise or add to what curently is posted in Wikipedia.
=============================

Are you saying that eiher Clomid or Nolva would boost my testis to production? They could not produce enough with LH=5.7
I never had to "recover" from anything, I never used any steroids.
===============================
I do not care about price of Androgel, (but it helped me while I used it).
1. For three years that was the only T source I could find.
2. My prescription plan pays for it
3. I use 100mg/1gram T cream now, (cost me as much as deductible for Androgel).

I do not argue with you about pharma politics.
I just want to figure out my good choices with my best available information and resources.
Just want to survive present, I am not a activist.
================================

What do you know (or be willing to find) about my cancer (liposarcoma) and my possible (or not) use of HGH.

So far I did not found anything conclusive.
HGH promotes cell growth, one reson to stay away from it.
That is the only argument my surgeon came up with.
Hi works at cancer institute.
HGH-antagonist was proposed as one possibility to fight sarcoma. (I have a paper to support that).

In lack of supporting evidence/research I could use some doctors experience If they would be willing to share it.
Would have to be over long period of time (5years??).
.
.
 
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envirocancer.cornell.edu/Bibliography/General/bib.parabens.cfm
 
JanSz said:
Invalid Link Removed

If you have solid info on paraben,
revise or add to what curently is posted in Wikipedia.
=============================

Are you saying that eiher Clomid or Nolva would boost my testis to production? They could not produce enough with LH=5.7
I never had to "recover" from anything, I never used any steroids.
===============================
I do not care about price of Androgel, (but it helped me while I used it).
1. For three years that was the only T source I could find.
2. My prescription plan pays for it
3. I use 100mg/1gram T cream now, (cost me as much as deductible for Androgel).

I do not argue with you about pharma politics.
I just want to figure out my good choices with my best available information and resources.
Just want to survive present, I am not a activist.
================================

What do you know (or be willing to find) about my cancer (liposarcoma) and my possible (or not) use of HGH.

So far I did not found anything conclusive.
HGH promotes cell growth, one reson to stay away from it.
That is the only argument my surgeon came up with.
Hi works at cancer institute.
HGH-antagonist was proposed as one possibility to fight sarcoma. (I have a paper to support that).

In lack of supporting evidence/research I could use some doctors experience If they would be willing to share it.
Would have to be over long period of time (5years??).
.
.
Click to expand...

Clomid will make your nuts grow like wildfire if you arent on TRT. Clomid is useless when on TRT. Toremifine is working miracles for people as well.
 
I have varicocele. Can someone tell me what exercises i can do in the gym and what is not good for varicocele? I am amateur wrestler, so what activity can harm me? Thank you
 
Frx said:
I have varicocele. Can someone tell me what exercises i can do in the gym and what is not good for varicocele? I am amateur wrestler, so what activity can harm me? Thank you
Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, Megazoid had a plan once, to develop web site devoted to varicocele problems.
 
Still going to go ahead with this one guy's, going to be setting up a website specifically for varicocele sufferers and also a forum for male health concerns.

Need to get my HRT plan sorted out then i will be spending time putting the website together. Will keep everyone posted.
 
How many times can you repeat varicocele surgery if it's not sucesfull?
(because there is limited number of veins)
 
Hopefully more than once.. As I'm pretty sure mine recurred. Not sure yet as my doc is out of state and I have to wait till the 17th for an appt.
 
varicocele recovery quest.

How long does it takes for leydig cells to regenerate after varicocele repair, I mean , is it matter of weeks or months...?
Tnx
 
Megazoid said:
Still going to go ahead with this one guy's, going to be setting up a website specifically for varicocele sufferers and also a forum for male health concerns.

Need to get my HRT plan sorted out then i will be spending time putting the website together. Will keep everyone posted.
Click to expand...

Hey do not rush, take a week or two. :)
 
Hyde12, how was ur erections and libido before you surgery....and now how is it. Also do u have before and after T labs?

Can someone tell me what exactly a varicocele looks/feels like. All I can gather is that it is on the veins, but is it like a little ball or is it just swollen/enlarged?
 
fit4life05 said:
Hyde12, how was ur erections and libido before you surgery....and now how is it. Also do u have before and after T labs?

Can someone tell me what exactly a varicocele looks/feels like. All I can gather is that it is on the veins, but is it like a little ball or is it just swollen/enlarged?
Click to expand...

My erections and libido were crap before surgery. They improved a lot after surgery. Some of my problems were from a bad PCT though. I never got after T labs because none of my doctors thought that it was necessary because they didn't think that a Varicocele would effect Testosterone. My labs before the surgery indicated a bad PCT: my total Testosterone was around 300 and my LH was about 2.5 and my FSH was about 3.0. My DHT was also low. A Varicocele feels like a bag of worms. If you google Varicocele it will show you a picture of it.
 
Megazoid said:
I've spent almost 4 month so far researching this because much like you i didn't want to give up and had hope, hower this faded when almost all research and urologists pointed to the fact that re-growth dosen't happen in varicocele patients due to the progressive damage caused by varicoceles. It "might" (just "might" be possible) to reverse some of this using HCG.
Click to expand...

How can you say that my friend,all medical research on internet say that after surgery T level raises, and testicles re-grow to some point.

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Frx said:
How can you say that my friend,all medical research on internet say that after surgery T level raises, and testicles re-grow to some point.

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Click to expand...

My nuts got a little bigger after surgery:woohoo:
 
32 yr old with vericocele

hey guys - i'm new to this forum. i read through all your posts on varicocele and i'm impressed. you have a lot of knowledge on it. i was hoping you could help me out.

MY BACKGROUND

i'm 32 yrs old and i have had a vericocele on my left testicle since as long as i can remember. i remember being at concerts when i was 15 or 16 and it swelling up. i had a few doctors look at it and they said it wasn't a big deal. i think my left testicle was sometimes undescended when i was a child also. the vericocele has grown very slowly over the years and hasn't really bothered me too much, aside from some throbbing a few times a week.

but over the last 5-7 yrs it seems though like my testosterone has been on the decline. i'm more depressed, less/no libido, no morning woods. also, i've gradually seen my left testicle shrink in size somewhat.

based on my research it is a grade 3 (large/easily visible).

i used to be into bodybuilding 4 or 5 yrs ago, but i never took any steriod type substances.

over the last 6 months, i've been getting back into lifting heavy, but i've noticed my muscle gains aren't great/fast as normal.

based on my research and also reading your posts, it looks like i should get this thing operated on.

MY QUESTIONS

1) Any suggestions on finding a specialist doc (I'm in Canada, but I can travel to US to pay for op there also). Any websites that list "the best" urologists who've done thousands of ops, etc. Any suggestions on what to look for in a doc who will do the surgery.

2) I hear a lot about HCG and others (Clomid, TRT, Toremifine, etc.) I know nothing about these substances. Any suggestions/websites on where I can learn more about them, what they do and where I can get them.

3) Do you think as a non-serious body builder it is wise for me to dabble in the above? Can they cause more harm than good.

4) I'll be getting bloodwork from my GP soon, what are the 'normal' range levels I should be aware of for all testosterone/horomone related measurements (testosterone, free T, LH, FSH, prolactin, etc). I'd love to hear your thoughts on what "they say" normal is versus what you find it should be. Do you have any websites where I can learn what each of these things mean/are/do.

5) Any suggestions on herbs/vitamins/minerals/foods to eat to increase testosterone naturally.

Thanks guys.

M
 
michael2010 said:
hey guys - I'm new to this forum. i read through all your posts on varicocele and I'm impressed. you have a lot of knowledge on it. i was hoping you could help me out.

MY BACKGROUND

I'm 32 yrs old and i have had a vericocele on my left testicle since as long as i can remember. i remember being at concerts when i was 15 or 16 and it swelling up. i had a few doctors look at it and they said it wasn't a big deal. i think my left testicle was sometimes undescended when i was a child also. the vericocele has grown very slowly over the years and hasn't really bothered me too much, aside from some throbbing a few times a week.

but over the last 5-7 yrs it seems though like my testosterone has been on the decline. I'm more depressed, less/no libido, no morning woods. also, I've gradually seen my left testicle shrink in size somewhat.

based on my research it is a grade 3 (large/easily visible).

i used to be into bodybuilding 4 or 5 yrs ago, but i never took any steroid type substances.

over the last 6 months, i've been getting back into lifting heavy, but i've noticed my muscle gains aren't great/fast as normal.

based on my research and also reading your posts, it looks like i should get this thing operated on.

MY QUESTIONS

1) Any suggestions on finding a specialist doc (I'm in Canada, but I can travel to US to pay for op there also). Any websites that list "the best" urologists who've done thousands of ops, etc. Any suggestions on what to look for in a doc who will do the surgery.

2) I hear a lot about HCG and others (Clomid, TRT, Toremifine, etc.) I know nothing about these substances. Any suggestions/websites on where I can learn more about them, what they do and where I can get them.

3) Do you think as a non-serious body builder it is wise for me to dabble in the above? Can they cause more harm than good.

4) I'll be getting bloodwork from my GP soon, what are the 'normal' range levels I should be aware of for all testosterone/horomone related measurements (testosterone, free T, LH, FSH, prolactin, etc). I'd love to hear your thoughts on what "they say" normal is versus what you find it should be. Do you have any websites where I can learn what each of these things mean/are/do.

5) Any suggestions on herbs/vitamins/minerals/foods to eat to increase testosterone naturally.

Thanks guys.

M
Click to expand...

The first thing to do is try to get it fixed. Most Urologists can perform the procedure and its very common. You have to make sure you emphasize how "painful" it is for them to want to fix it. If you tell the Urologist that you want to get it fixed because you believe it is effecting your Testosterone then they will probably tell you that it doesn't effect Testosterone and tell you to take a hike.
 
Please comment this table guys. It is a research of 83 men with varicoceles, testosterone levels before&after repair.
I hate statistics because there is not important data specifyed, like age of these man. I think that is the reason for a lot of +- deviation of T levels after repair

Source:
Invalid Link Removed

Table I. testosterone and free testosterone levels in infertile patients (n=83) treated for varicocele

Variable................Pre-embolization.....Post-embolization P-value
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testosterone (nmol/l) ......12.07±6.07...17.22±8.43 P<0.001
Free testosterone (nmol/l)...5.93±2.44..10.21±7.69 P<0.001

Testosterone (nmol/l) by grade of varicocele
Grade I (n=22)......11.82±6.42....17.07±7.17 P<0.001
Grade II (n=39).....12.23±4.06....20.63±9.61 P<0.001
Grade III (n=22)....11.96±6.70....18.10±7.65 P<0.001
 
Frx said:
Please comment this table guys. It is a research of 83 men with varicoceles, testosterone levels before&after repair.
I hate statistics because there is not important data specifyed, like age of these man. I think that is the reason for a lot of +- deviation of T levels after repair

Source:
Invalid Link Removed

Table I. testosterone and free testosterone levels in infertile patients (n=83) treated for varicocele

Variable................Pre-embolization.....Post-embolization P-value
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Testosterone (nmol/l) ......12.07±6.07...17.22±8.43 P<0.001
Free testosterone (nmol/l)...5.93±2.44..10.21±7.69 P<0.001

Testosterone (nmol/l) by grade of varicocele
Grade I (n=22)......11.82±6.42....17.07±7.17 P<0.001
Grade II (n=39).....12.23±4.06....20.63±9.61 P<0.001
Grade III (n=22)....11.96±6.70....18.10±7.65 P<0.001
Click to expand...

So it can be as low as 17.22-8.43=8.79nmol/l=254ng/dL
we usually think of 600 as a starting #

12nmol/L=346ng/dl
18nmol/l=519ng/dl
21=nmol/l=606ng/dl
34.6nmol/l=998ng/dl

Invalid Link Removed

I suspect for somebody with varicocele that bothers them (physical pain) better deal is to forget fixing. start TRT without HCG.
Have the balls shrunk and live that way. I did that for three years, not really big deal.
When one wants to conceive, rebuild testis with HCG possibly with addition of HMG have a child then go to old ways TRT.
 
JanSz i have various theories on this. I believe in the case of elevated LH/FSH then that option should be considered but ALL medical papers point towards improvement of hormonal parameters after varicocele surgery + HCG treatment, so i am going to try this first. I believe there is a strong link between thyroid and varicocele. I believe it's possible to "aquire" hypothyroidism from varicocele due to the body's attempt to lower scrotal tempeture and in turn effecting over-all blood flow due to this.

I am not going to give up on my testicles until i am 110% sure they can't put out test. Some of my own readings were coming back at 20.1nmol without TRT so i now believe the link is hypothyroidism and i am going to be getting full thyroid + adrenals checked in the next week or so.
 
Megazoid said:
JanSz i have various theories on this. I believe in the case of elevated LH/FSH then that option should be considered but ALL medical papers point towards improvement of hormonal parameters after varicocele surgery + HCG treatment, so i am going to try this first. I believe there is a strong link between thyroid and varicocele. I believe it's possible to "aquire" hypothyroidism from varicocele due to the body's attempt to lower scrotal tempeture and in turn effecting over-all blood flow due to this.

I am not going to give up on my testicles until i am 110% sure they can't put out test. Some of my own readings were coming back at 20.1nmol without TRT so i now believe the link is hypothyroidism and i am going to be getting full thyroid + adrenals checked in the next week or so.
Click to expand...

Go check your thyroid.
Do not stress too much about it.
The money is in
FreeT3
check also
FreeT4
do not get any other numbers, you will not know what to do with them.
I tested
FreeT3=2.9pg/mL(2.3-4.2)
Started using Armour Thyroid to get it at FreeT3=3.8
I am already taking 4grains.
Watching my pulse and temperature, they are fine and steady.
Had blood drawn last Friday, waiting for results.
I made a little table to figure out where I am with my FreeT3.
3.825 <--FT3 start of upper 25%
3.667 <--FT3 start of upper 33%
3.350 <--FT3 start of upper 50%
68.42 <--my current 2.9 puts me %% from the top =100-(2.9-2.3)/(4.2-2.3)*100
21.05 <-- 3.8 would put me %% from the top =100-(3.8-2.3)/(4.2-2.3)*100
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never ask you to give up on testis.
Just given you one way to make a peace in your life.
Keep them dormant and ease pain (when shrunken).
Bring them back to activity when you want to make a baby.
I thought it is not bad plan, keep that as an option.
==================================================
When using Armour Thyroid make sure that you always have a month supply of it.
In case you learned that you can't get it anymore you will have enough to ramp down.
You may get into lots of trouble if you stop it abruptly.
 
I am suprised how little doctors know about varicocele. It's complicated because it has various effects.

What is your opinion about this : when the testicle is not athropeted ,then there is none degeneration in the cells ,or it still can be damaged but normal size ?
Sorry for bad Borat english
 
Frx said:
I am suprised how little doctors know about varicocele. It's complicated because it has various effects.

What is your opinion about this : when the testicle is not athropeted ,then there is none degeneration in the cells ,or it still can be damaged but normal size ?
Sorry for bad Borat english
Click to expand...

I used Clomid and my nuts got bigger. IMHO HCG is not a good choice because it is suppressive and is not your own LH.
Clomid is good at 25-50 mg ED, not only will your nuts grow, but you will shoot king kong loads :cheers:
 
Have you guys heard of this?

Hey I just recently heard of a treatment for varicose veins called venacure. It's a laser treatment and is supposedly much easier than surgery. Do you guys think this method could treat a varicocele? From what I read, it sounds like it possibly could. Do any of you guys know anything about this?
 
I'm going to say this again, having been through this. Surgery is the only thing that will get rid of this problem. I ignored the swelling and pain in my nut to the point of almost being able to not walk after having sex. The surgery is a one day thing with some weeks of revovery. If for what ever reason someone does not want to take that path, take sarrapeptase. It will diffentatly reduse the swelling and GREATLY reduce the pain. I have nothing to gain by plugging any product, just saying what works/worked for me. I can't see how a laser can close off the valve that has busted open, or close off the blood flow to the vein giving you this problem. Im my case, they made a small cut in my lower pelvis and tied off the vein. After a month or two the vein collapses without blood flow. The catch is that sometimes there may be a vein that they don't see, such is my case. I'm way better off after the surgery, but need to take this sup for now till I get around to the missed vein.
Heres a link. Invalid Link Removed
 
Frx said:
I am suprised how little doctors know about varicocele. It's complicated because it has various effects.

What is your opinion about this : when the testicle is not athropeted ,then there is none degeneration in the cells ,or it still can be damaged but normal size ?
Sorry for bad Borat english
Click to expand...

Damaged? Yup. Most people don't even know they have one till they can't have kids, get tested for sperm count, fail for a bad count, then look to see why. After surgery they'er count comes right up. My point is that some guys don't notice any size change, discomfort, or anything, but sperm count will be low.
 
Hello everyone,

I'm a noob and have been reading through the post. I am 18 year's old and have a pretty big varicocele, most likely class 3. I have been experiencing pain and disconfort for some time, and have just recently noticed that my left testicle is smaller. I am going to see my doctor next friday about surgery that is the earliest he will be able to see me, however, I do not want to wait too long and cause irreversible damage. Will waiting over a week be too much?
 
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