IBE is in TROUBLE!!!!!!!

Who Do You Support

  • IBE "Epistane"

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • RPN "Havoc"

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Total voters
    1
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There is a reason you don't see Coke testing Pepsi's drink and saying it has to much sugar in it. There are laws that prevent things like this from happening. You can post your own results of your own products and word it to put doubt about your competitors, but you can't say your competitors products fail claim. When there is no governing body to regulate, you can't have this sort of "self" regulation.

Everytime I was sued over testing when I owned BN/1Fast it was based on the fact that I competed with the brands I tested due to my bulk powder line. When you have real companies setup doing it, I can imagine the ties are MUCH stronger. If you REALLY want to learn about some of this:

Invalid Link Removed
 
friction515 said:
Really, so why is it illegal to post results that are correct?

So if I test drinking water and it's impure it's illegal for me to inform people of that?

I don't know the laws so a little clarification would be great. How can that be illegal? Seems unfortunate if it is.
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It gets fairly involved, but it really has to do mostly with unfair trade and defamation. You might start by looking at Section 43 of the Lanham Act (Google is your friend), especially if you have insomnia.
 
1Fast400 said:
... So IBE got a test result with two peaks, they just never checked the MS to see that it was the same compound. They wanted it to be wrong, so they just stuck with the initial 2 peak theory...
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Hey, please substantiate these statements you made! How do you know what IBE has and what they know? How do you presume to know what they want or what they theorize?

You state it as fact, so I am very interested to know.
 
just a guess, you'd have to get the definitive answer from mike or someone better versed in laws and regulations around this sort of thing...but i would assume IBE can't because they are in the same market selling what's supposed to be the same product. I realize IBE is a sponsor here and a lot of people like them, and I have also used a few of their products, but I find it kind of shocking how some people don't see what's wrong with a company telling distributors that they shouldn't sell a competing product. Regardless of the results, there is an undeniable conflict of interest. This isn't meant as an attack on IBE as a whole, I just feel like this move wasn't well thought out. I have been very impressed with dsade, both as a representative of nutraplanet and RPN, and from an outside perspective it seems like IBE is going after RPN because of PA and mike. Honestly, regardless of whatever vendetta people think PA and mike may have, they are two people who know what they are doing in this area. I can understand IBE not appreciating the negative press, but if consumers aren't getting what is on the label then they have a right to know, regardless of what sort of feedback has come in so far. I personally think Mike has been getting a lot of **** from people on here for someone offering to pay to have this done for consumers. On that same note, if the test comes back and everything is ok, I would hope that the appropriate apology and the like is given, which I believe mike would do. End rambling
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
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His GC/MS showed two peaks, but with a common M+.

edit: no scans though, just his word.
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Yeah, exactly.

Raw data speaks for itself, you don't have to take anybodies word for it. Did PA state somewhere he didn't mind posting this info because it looked good to him? If so, did he ever follow through and do what he said he would?

If he said he would, then I must believe somewhere that he did post them, because he is an honest man and is very proud and confidant of his results I'm sure. I am just looking for that link where he posted them because I still can't find it! Not that I don't trust him or anything negative, but I would just like to see them for myself. It never hurts to get a second opinion.
 
friction515 said:
Beu I was born with insomnia.
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It really isn't that bad of a read.

We can probably all recall the results of type of things covered by these and other acts, etc.; they happen to make media headlines from time to time. I remember several years ago, at about the time Corona beer was becoming popular, the importers/distributors of a German imported beer of great notoriety apparently claimed that the workers in the Corona plants urinated in the brewing vats. That was an expensive lesson for those involved with making those claims.

You'll notice most adds, etc., tend to make affirmative statements about their own product ("it is preferred 2 to 1"), rather than bashing the competition - at least directly - and with good reason.
 
D (remember I'm not calling you Dr. D because you're not a Dr, you just play one on the internet) I'm surprised by your actions. You know IBE and PA have been going back and forth on email. I assume you were copied on said emails, maybe not? I know you're supposed to be working for AX, but you still have things going on with IBE, such a messy situation.

Anyway to answer your question. At the time IBE was making the claims regarding 60/40 with havoc I would assume they didn't double check via MS. If they had and they STILL went around saying the product failed, well, that's just more unethical/liable conduct on the behalf of IBE. I assume a company wouldn't intentionally release mis-information. Now, IBE was informed this morning via email (once again, maybe they don't show those to you) about the double peak issue and why it happens. Since then, IBE may choose to rerun the test (hence the VERY odd delay in the results). I find it ungodly odd that you have test results in hand from a third party but they're being held up for a chain of custody letter? Never in my life have I ever heard of such a crazy thing and I've done more third party testing than anyone here. But hey, stranger things have happened.

That is why D (remember, not Dr. D, because you're not a DR).
 
I find the blind faith that he truly was doing the testing out of the kindness of his heart is a bit naive. Also, conviently the testing cannot get done. Furthermore he won't be able to partake in this conversation in one week which would be far too little for the test and analyzed results to come through anyway.

Strange.
 
I could have the results by monday if IBE would simply allow me to purchase from one of the many board members they have on the IBE boards. I've offered 100 bucks plus I'll pay all the shipping straight to the lab. There is no way a consumer is going to know how to taint those capsules.

IBE WON'T ALLOW ME TO TEST THEIR PRODUCT. Now what does that say about them? You can draw your own conclusions. Jayhawk has posted in this thread that he has seen the emails between myself and RTP labs. I can't help Island Supplements had it on backorder, but had it marked as instock on their webiste. None of it is in stock at the various warehouses so all I know to do is offer a consumer cash.

IBE why won't you let me do this?
 
He also stated that he had no way of knowing the validity of the e-mails. Furthermore how do you know a consumer could'nt taint those caps, You dont know anything about who any end consumer is. I know there were other places with Epistane than nutraplanet I am a compulsive online shopper and I saw it at another site or two, and in stock.
 
1Fast400 said:
... IBE why won't you let me do this?
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Hey, I have a better idea, why don't you just go ahead and post the results PA got that you keep talking about and save 100 bucks? He's tested both right? That's good enough for us I think. Let's just use those results and settle this right now? I trust him, don't you? IBE has no issue with this either, as they have given you their wholehearted consent. So, where's those results Mike?
 
Please show me a link I've asked 100x for it. I would only ask for a sealed bottle to be sent, not open. So how do you surmise a consumer being able to do that?

I will offer 10,000 dollars to anyone that can prove I didn't try to get this lab test done. Here is a copy of the email:

Mike,

I still have not received the shipment from Island Supplements. They must also be on back order, since I haven’t received any notice by e-mail about it being shipped. Their website also says they are on backorder. I’m going to go down to the local supplement store and see if they have some on the shelf. I keep you informed.



Thanks,



Alston Sykes, Principal Chemist
Research Triangle Park Laboratories, Inc.

8109 Ebenezer Church Road
Raleigh, NC 27612
Phone: 919-510-0228
Invalid Link Removed
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You people make me sick. I'm doing everything I can to be LEGIT in all of this. I've backed up every single thing I've said. You have a company knowingly and admitting to lying, yet you guys sit there and trust them. I give up. I'm starting to remember why I loved/hated message boards.

Go ahead friction, call him up tomorrow, email me, go drive to his freaking place of work and ask him. I asked on the 14th to have this tested. How am I supposed to make up fake emails with their email address and all this other crap? I'm a damn business man not a tech geek.
 
I believe an actual Bigfoot sighting (of Sasquatch, not the Monster Truck) would have caused less emotional stir and rampant speculation.

Now, back to tonight's argument.....
 
Hey, I have a better idea, why don't you just go ahead and post the results PA got that you keep talking about and save 100 bucks? He's tested both right? That's good enough for us I think. Let's just use those results and settle this right now? I trust him, don't you? IBE has no issue with this either, as they have given you their wholehearted consent. So, where's those results Mike?
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. You don't read anything. PA can't post his results and we all know why. He doesn't want to get sued. You still can't get it through your thick non-doctor skull that a competing company can't publically post testing results without opening themselves up to a lawsuit. IBE has emails going back and forth to PA. I assume PA would be more than willing to give them said results. I'm not getting myself dragged into a lawsuit.

If I wasn't so lawsuit conscience do you think I'd be asking for permission to post the results after buying from a consumer? So if you wouldn't have an issue with PA's results (which it should be pointed out they are HIS results, I can't release them without HIS permission), then why would you have an issue with me buying a sealed bottle from a consumer and sending straight to the lab?
 
friction515 said:
I find the blind faith that he truly was doing the testing out of the kindness of his heart is a bit naive. Also, conviently the testing cannot get done. Furthermore he won't be able to partake in this conversation in one week which would be far too little for the test and analyzed results to come through anyway.

Strange.
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I agree with your first statement, I worded part of my statement kinda wrong. I realize that mike doesn't seem to care for IBE, he doesn't really try to hide it. Regardless of his motive, if all chain of custody and the like is there then the consumers will be benefitting IF there is an issue (not saying there will be). This goes for all of the products in question. If Havoc or hemaguno is bad, then we have the right to know. If IBE shows solid evidence that Havoc isn't up to par, then I wouldn't buy havoc. But at the same time, I wouldn't blame RPN if they bring a lawsuit against IBE- Dr. D, you were right, I guess i do want it both ways. I just feel like even if the test is right, the email was a bad way to go about it
 
I'm still blown away as to why your defense to everything is to ask me to post results that someone else did. You don't own any part of IBE. You own a small % of AX (wow how did I know that). So taking your word for what will/won't happen, sorry I'm not taking it. You work a deal with PA to post those results.

If IBE will give me clearance to post results on a sealed bottle sent to the lab by a consumer, someone they trust, then I'll gladly post the results, regardless of what they are.
 
There won't be a lawsuit between IBE/RPN eventhough there is a TON of basis for it. The only reason why is because both companies are selling illegal drugs. IBE knows RPN can't sue them, which is why they have an open field day on slandering them. They know RPN can't take them to court, because they're both selling drugs.
 
1Fast400 said:
They know RPN can't take them to court, because they're both selling drugs.
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Why would you even make a statement like that on the open forum. That is just a bad statement to make for everyone.

I don't trust anyone in this mess anymore. I personally just think you look shady Man. Arguably more shady than anyone else.
 
Why would you even make a statement like that on the open forum. That is just a bad statement to make for everyone. I don't trust anyone in this mess anymore I just think you look shady Mike. Arguably more shady than anyone else.
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I made that statement because it is true. We all know it is. It is the exact reason our industry has such a crappy name and why we'll be regulated into the stone age within 5 years. If you want drugs, go to the black market . They're easy to get and more effective.

If you think I'm so shady, take me up on my offer and email the lab [email protected] that is the guy doing the testing. I'm sure you won't, because you'll find out I've told the truth the entire time and that would ruin your opinion
 
Is there any kind of confidentiality the company has about giving your information out?

I'll e-mail them however that doesn't change the fact that you were all over bashing them when the product was not even on the way to the lab.

Now it can't be tested. So what does all that mean? I personally don't know. I just know that it was'nt IBE that started all of this. Which gives them a slight bit more credit in my mind. However no one has seen any results so I have no idea what the truth really is.

I do remember you making statements blindly defending PA and his analysis although as stated above you have absolutely no ability to read the results of any test. Then you came here and pushed as far as you could to prove it was fake. All I know is epistane has more than delivered on its promises. I have been on it for over maybe just over two weeks now and it is working great. I'm up ten pounds. So in summation I dont know who to trust. I only know for a fact that you're the very last one in line for me.
 
warnerve said:
... the email was a bad way to go about it
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Perhaps that is a legitimate view, warnerve. Should a truth still be discarded over a technicality though?

Sometimes I have seen people do things all wrong, but still do those things for the right reasons. Therefore, I can still appreciate that very much because nobody is perfect!
 
I can't make it any simpler than I already have. There are some people you just can't convince. I will try this last time and then I'm done, cause my flight is in the afternoon.

Is there any kind of confidentiality the company has about giving your information out?
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Just ask Alston if he's doing a test for Mike McCandless. I don't see why he can't tell you that.

I'll e-mail them however that doesn't change the fact that you were all over bashing them when the product was not even on the way to the lab.
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One more time. I SAW THE RESULTS FROM PA'S TESTING SHOWING IT TO HAVE THE INCORRECT MW A WEEK BEFORE. I then decided to test it myself to verify the results.

Now it can't be tested. So what does all that mean? I personally don't know. I just know that it was'nt IBE that started all of this.
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That is where you are wrong. This started on bb.com and it was a private matter till D decided to get into it with PA, then the crap starting be flung.

Which gives them a slight bit more credit in my mind. However no one has seen any results so I have no idea what the truth really is.
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That is what I was trying to fix till island supplements fvcked the lab over.

I do remember you making statements blindly defending PA and his analysis although as stated above you have absolutely no ability to read the results of any test.
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Taking it out of context. You can take the MW of a compound and compare it to what it SHOULD be. Havoc matched up to what it SHOULD be. There are other compounds that could possibly share the same MW, hence the inability to say 100% it is compound A. However, if the MW is off, as epistane was, you can say for a fact that it WASN'T the said compound. Make sense?

Then you came here and pushed as far as you could to prove it was fake. I do know for a fact that the day you came here saying it was fake best**************.com had some in stock since I had just ordered a 2 bottles that day for my roomate and I. Well I have been on it for over maybe just over two weeks now and it is working great. I'm up ten pounds. So in summation I dont know who to trust. I only know for a fact that you're the very last one in line for me.
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I've never said it doesn't work. It's a steroid of some sort, just not sure what. The day the lab ordered the epistane it showed in stock on island supplements. I had no reason to believe it wasn't in stock. On 3-21 I asked Alston for an update when he told me he should have the bottle anyday based off when he ordered it. When nothing showed, that is when he found it was on backorder. By that point, all the online stores were out of it. Hence my backup of trying to get a consumer to send in a SEALED bottle. But IBE won't let me post any results from that.
 
Should a truth still be discarded over a technicality though?
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OH my god. You are kidding me? You knowingly sent an email that had false information about a competitors product. The double peaks have been explained and all you've done is prove that havoc contains 100% of the REAL active. Yet, you emailed distributors saying the opposite.

Sometimes I have seen people do things all wrong, but still do those things for the right reasons. Therefore, I can still appreciate that very much because nobody is perfect!
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Someone comes in and kills my parents in cold blood. I get revenge and kill them. I kill them because it was unfair that they killed my parents. I did it for the right reasons, revenge. So a man of god like yourself see's this as being ok? I can't believe you are justifying all of this by "we were trying to do good by fvcking over a direct competitor". If you were all about the good, you should have contacted RPN and let them handle it.

The amazing part to me. RPN has yet to do a SINGLE thing to you in all of this yet you ROYALLY fvcked them from a business standpoint. That is why I don't like IBE. That's just ungodly dirty business practices.
 
DR.D said:
Perhaps that is a legitimate view, warnerve. Should a truth still be discarded over a technicality though?

Sometimes I have seen people do things all wrong, but still do those things for the right reasons. Therefore, I can still appreciate that very much because nobody is perfect!
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Like I said, if what was in the email turns out to be proven conclusively true, then I wouldn't buy havoc unless things were fixed. Until then, I am just a loyal advocate of RPN giving them the benefit of the doubt, I have no major hostility towards IBE and I think you make a tremendous contribution to the board, sciencewise. I just hope in the end this doesn't hurt the whole industry, as some are speculating
 
friction515 said:
Why would you even make a statement like that on the open forum. That is just a bad statement to make for everyone.

I don't trust anyone in this mess anymore. I personally just think you look shady Man. Arguably more shady than anyone else.
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Ditto!! Guys, MM just pooped on all of us with that post, big time. I must go now because I am not here to be pooped on and have said all I needed to say.

---------------

Be patient for now. I will post some crash course style write-ups here very soon on how to read chromatographic results for the following identification techniques:

1) Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR)

and

2) Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry (GC/MS)

If you what to understand the basics of lab results so you don't have to "trust" anyone from now on, just read these over and you will be able to interpret results yourselves from now on! Pay attention, there will be a quiz later. (J/K!)
 
friction515 said:
Why would you even make a statement like that on the open forum. That is just a bad statement to make for everyone.

I don't trust anyone in this mess anymore. I personally just think you look shady Man. Arguably more shady than anyone else.
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He made a good deal of money off of hormones such as M1T/1T/4AD/1AD/SD/etc, etc. So yeah, he does sound quite a bit like a self-righteous prick in that regard. Then take into consideration he just sold rights to his S1+ formula (4AD / 1-Test) knowing that someone will make something of it that is clearly on the DSHEA already.

I think enough **** has been stirred. Lets let time tell the rest and remember how everyone acted when and think long and hard about who we choose to do business with.
 
When I sold hormones, they were legal. When the gov't made a law saying they weren't, I quit selling.

I sold the naming rights to someone in the UK, where it IS legal.
 
I also spent 75,000 dollars of my own money and gobs of time defending our rights to sell those items via the USFA. Ergo gave 100's of thousands of dollars. Everyone else that was profiting from this crap didn't donate ****. By us spending the money we did we delayed the bill 6 months from being enacted and got a 3 month grace period to get rid of the products.

So for people who think I just took took took from the industry, sorry, not the case.
 
1Fast400 said:
When I sold hormones, they were legal. When the gov't made a law saying they weren't, I quit selling.

I sold the naming rights to someone in the UK, where it IS legal.
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Out of curiosity, you didn't happen to sell it to Bill Wilson of MUSCLE FINESSE did you?
 
No it wasn't him. I knew where some 1-t/4ad was sitting and told him about it. About 3 weeks later he asked for s1+ stuff.
 
Good news, I FINALLY found a bottle at a store. I asked the lab to have it overnighted, we'll see. Either way the TESTING WILL GO ON :)
 
Got to start this off by saying 1fast400 and Bulk Nutrition used to be my favorite source when you owned it. Ordered plenty from you guys, NEVER had problems and was always happy with the products. But what I'm reading doesn't seem to jibe.

1Fast400 said:
All IBE has done is prove that Havoc is what it is supposed to be. Think of it this way. IBE has been looking for something, I mean anything, that can put them back into a positive light. They just KNEW this testing was going to do that. Yet, you haven't seen them post the results, eventhough we KNOW they have them in hand and they said they were going to post them last night. They haven't, what does that tell you?
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If I recall earlier in the thread you mentioned that you knew they received an email and implied it had something to do with the fact that results had not been posted:

1Fast400 said:
BTW, I have a STRONG feeling we won't see the 60/40 results posted by IBE. IBE if you're reading this, it had to SUCK to get that email this morning didn't it.
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Which is I think confirmed with this:

IBE said:
We have been strongly advised to hold off on posting until the COC report is back. We will post all findings at that time....a day or 2. Without COC in tact then like what MM is saying it opens up some legality issues even if it was 3rd party tested.
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So it seems you were aware they were advised via email to not post or hold off on posting results and then called them out for not posting results. That doesn't jibe. Then after saying how easy it is to get sued for testing competitor's products and posting results/claims based on those tests you state:

1Fast400 said:
I find it ungodly odd that you have test results in hand from a third party but they're being held up for a chain of custody letter?
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Again, sounds off to me. If you've had experience getting sued, and I know you have, then you should understand their need to cover their asses legally just as much as anyone else. More so in fact. If it's the third party aspect that makes posting these result legally okay and which is stopping the posting of other results from other people, then that's legitamate, but then a chain of custody would seem crucial to proving that and covering themselves legally.

1Fast400 said:
There is plenty of factual information out there. If people will take the time, read through the results, they will see what the truth is. The reason some of us get real defensive in our posts is that it is easy for us to understand. We have trouble understanding why others don't get it. It's so simple, but once again, that is because we've dealt with things like this all the time.
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What results? To my knowledge nobody has actually posted results of any kind, merely relayed that they had aquired them but couldn't post them for this or that reason.

1Fast400 said:
I could have the results by monday if IBE would simply allow me to purchase from one of the many board members they have on the IBE boards. I've offered 100 bucks plus I'll pay all the shipping straight to the lab. There is no way a consumer is going to know how to taint those capsules.
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How do they know who that board member is and if he's reliable? If it's a mod as you stated earlier then that seems BS on their part. But for all we know PA is registered over there and waiting to take the paypal payment and ship the bottle off to the lab. It would seem a bit far fetched, yes, but from what I've seen from a customer vantage I'm not sure if I'd put anything beyond anyone at this point.

1Fast400 said:
There won't be a lawsuit between IBE/RPN eventhough there is a TON of basis for it. The only reason why is because both companies are selling illegal drugs. IBE knows RPN can't sue them, which is why they have an open field day on slandering them. They know RPN can't take them to court, because they're both selling drugs.
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This would seem to apply to anyone within the industry who is selling such products.

1Fast400 said:
One more time. I SAW THE RESULTS FROM PA'S TESTING SHOWING IT TO HAVE THE INCORRECT MW A WEEK BEFORE. I then decided to test it myself to verify the results.
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Results that can't be posted or confirmed mean nothing to anyone, reasons behind not posting/confirming not withstanding, people responsible for the testing not withstanding. Everyone involved in this debate has not posted results to back their statements up, they're all trading on their reputations.

1Fast400 said:
When I sold hormones, they were legal. When the gov't made a law saying they weren't, I quit selling.
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Indeed, and I bought a few and like I said when you owned the place I loved it and had no problems whatsoever with orders. You know how to run a business and you do treat your customers good, no argument here. But this is a bit disingenuous in my view. Steroids are illegal, specifically named or listed in the control act or not. They always were, and some clever nomenclature/marketing and lack of enforcement let a grey market exist until the government cracked down. The same market though smaller still obviously exists and some of the previous popular substances are specifically named now, the wording of the act has been strengthened, but as far as I can see legally we're essentially in the same boat now as before.

1Fast400 said:
Good news, I FINALLY found a bottle at a store. I asked the lab to have it overnighted, we'll see. Either way the TESTING WILL GO ON
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As a lot of people, I await the results eagerly, and thank you for stepping up to this particular plate and testing.
 
I'm on my way to train and then onto the plane. Here is a short reply.

IBE was saying they were going to post the results they had in hand. I know they had the testing results almost a week ago as another company informed me of the results via email. That email stated someone tested havoc and it came out at 60%, then oddly IBE comes out saying the same thing 3-4 days later. They were so excited about the two peaks, which were misread basically, that they forgot to double check their results. That is when they went shooting off to distributors about havoc not meeting claim. I then saw a copy of emails going directly to IBE, from a chemist, explaining how their results actually prove that havoc contains the correct ingredient. That same day IBE was to post their results, it's been 2-3 days and still nothing has been posted. That is because they realized they got caught with their pants down for the 500th time. They overstated and overreacted. This is why testing isn't as easy as someone thinks. When you don't know what you're looking at, you can misinterpet the results.

There is a reason they haven't posted their results and I assure you it has nothing to do with a chain of custody issue. It's because their results will be killed by real scientist (not ones that play as one on the internet).

Either way, their product should be going into testing now (meaning bottle enroute). Given the last clusterfvck I'm holding my breath till I see a tracking number.
 
Honestly... DOes anyone even give a SHlT anymore? This is just ReDONKulous now.

Who was is that said it best? Oh yeah (And I sigh that I know this) Limp Bizkit
"Its all about the he said, she said BULLSHlT"

Adams
 
DAdams91982 said:
Honestly... DOes anyone even give a SHlT anymore? This is just ReDONKulous now.

Who was is that said it best? Oh yeah (And I sigh that I know this) Limp Bizkit
"Its all about the he said, she said BULLSHlT"

Adams
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Once someone starts quoting Limp Bizkit we know we are in trouble. "Gonna do things my way!" LOL
 
1Fast400 said:
There is a reason they haven't posted their results and I assure you it has nothing to do with a chain of custody issue. It's because their results will be killed by real scientist (not ones that play as one on the internet).
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I have no horse in this race, nor do I know any of the people professionally or personally. Hell I'm not even using hormones anymore and likely never will again. I have no reason to trust or doubt any one of you guys more than anyone else. I can see that if IBE received an email saying they were in fact wrong that they'd be hesitant to post, but I've only got your word for it on that, and I've only got their word for it that they'll be posting once the COC is available. They could just as easily have received an email stating intentions to sue if results were released and are waiting for the COC to cover their ass.

To your credit you are the only person so far who has put up anything board readers can confirm, the emails sent to Jay and posted here it seems out of exasperation. So I guess it's wait and see time now. When you get a chance, when do you expect the results back from the testing you are having done? Turnaround time last mentioned was ten business days or two weeks if I remember, does that still hold?
 
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