just finished this, while most would stack something like TST because havoc is so dry, i decided to add trn for very LBM gains, and more increase in strength/vascularity. also did it to kickstart a 2 month cutting cycle. very lean gains, veins poppin everywhere, 14lb gain in weight over 30days - only experienced very mild joint problems. no shutdown or even backpumps noticed. strength was def. up as well as recovery, exact gains on bench and other lifts, im not exactly sure but it was def. higher than when i started.